Talk:Vegetarianism Other Views

This Page need cleaning up. I may be able to assist.

Cleaning up

This page needs to be properly presented otherwise it will be deleted.

• You start with a wrong translation and then argue the matter. The translation for the Shabad on page 1377 does include "fish" – see here. So this is not the correct starting point for the argument. Please make sure you start with the correct translation. --Hari Singh 09:31, 26 September 2006 (CDT)

* Nobody is saying it does not include fish, but the point being argued is that machalee = fish and NOT flesh. A subtle but very important point.--Incredible 16:18, 26 September 2006 (CDT)

Also can we keep the rebuttle's to the vegetarian page. This is an alternative or other view. Rebuttles are not appropriate here. --Incredible 16:43, 26 September 2006 (CDT)

Please deal this the queries here on the discussion page before you delete any material by others. You are free to improve the article but not to revert or delete other parties work without discussion. See the Guidelines on the help section - verifiability, No original research and NPOV are rules that everyone must comply with. Further the article must conform to normal wiki style. Dump from other sites will not be allowed. If you cannot write articles for this site yourself then you are not really interested in the progress to this site. This articles need major improvements and need to follow guidelines. --Hari Singh 13:46, 27 September 2006 (CDT)

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Vegetarianism Other Views NOT Vegetarianism and Rebuttles

Yhis not the page for giving rebuttles on vegetarianism and Sikhism. There is a whole page dedicated to vegetarianism and Sikhsm....is that not rebuttle enough? Or are not other views allowed here? --Incredible 01:30, 27 September 2006 (CDT)

Initiating & Sustaining A CNTRVRSY(sic! can't spell)is the very ROOT of FALSEHOOD

"..The topic of meat eating is a controversial one...???" --Sayth HANAK NOOOOOOOO! IT IS NOT A TOPIC to BEGIN WITH...Mass Mass Kar...

User:Mutia 27 Sep 06

RECOMMENDED that ...

• TRUE IDEA(satgur) of handling rebuttals be the Talk/Discussion page of any Article.

User:Mutia 27 Sep 06

Finding a better system

I understand your concerns and I am asking a few of the other interested and wise people connected with Sikhiwiki about how we can best resolve this matter – It is possible that we will have a joint, strict discussion page; or may be changes via the discussion page need to be implemented? We could ask for views on the discussion page and then at the end of the discussion make the amendments - I will come back to you on this one.

I hope you will agree that it is not correct to have un-supported "facts" being highlighted on any article. And having read a few of the entries here on this article, it is clear that a NPOV (neutral point of view) is not been taken. Wrong translations was used as a starting point for the first Shabads; a very narrow interpretation of the meaning of words; wrong translations of words; and no explanation why such narrow approach was used are just a few points I have noticed – So there is concern about this approach and one must mention both POV in all articles and stick to the facts. We will have to decide the best way to get there.

This article as it stands is not acceptable as it is a dump from other sites without adjusting it for its place here as a Sikh resource. This is not acceptable. And I suggest that you look at this very carefully and I suggest that each section has references added otherwise the unsupported text will need to be deleted. All basic concepts must be supported by approved Bani or recorded historical records otherwise it will not be entertained. Views of the Gurus need to be dealt with respect and reverence. On other authority for a Sikh can have the same relevance. No quotes for "undisclosed sources" which are not available can be entertained. Copies of hukamnama must be supplied where they are used. --Hari Singh 13:33, 27 September 2006 (CDT)

Section 3

In this section,

"First point to note is that halaal and bismil, does not mean kill but refers to a specific form of ritual slaughter ^{[citation needed]}. Put into context this is a comment on the Muslim sacrifice ritual where either a goat or a chicken is kept in the confines of the home and then ritually slaughtered as obeisance to Abraham. Kabeer is mocking the futility of this ritual and saying, that why are you doing this sacrifice just to emulate God’s asking of Abraham to kill his only son? It is a futile gesture that will not sway God. Abraham was sacrificing his son to God, however all the sacrifice in this instance has achieved is destruction of the outer shell of the chicken. The soul won’t travel to God, but merely to another form. One can only understand this if one has a basic grasp of history. In this instance the person who tried to use this tukh as an anti-meat quotation was unaware of the Koranic context and had an extremely poor knowledge of Semitic history."

We need references to where these words do not refer to "kill". Where in the Shabad does Abraham get mentioned or his son? If it is not in the Shabad, it cannot be in this explanation – Please quote Bani to help with explanation not your own research. This narration will be removed without proper external support. Where does Maharaj say you need history to understand Bani? Is this more OR? --Hari Singh 14:14, 27 September 2006 (CDT)

Section 4

4. Bhagat Kabir says, that the best food is eating kichree (daal/lentils)

...where nectar sweet is the salt. You eat hunted meat, but which animal is willing to have their head cut ? (SGGS p1374)

Let us add this to the correct context:

The hail-stone has melted into water, and flowed into the ocean. Kabeer, the body is a pile of dust, collected and packed together. It is a show which lasts for only a few days, and then dust returns to dust. Kabeer, bodies are like the rising and setting of the sun and the moon. Without meeting the Guru, the Lord of the Universe, they are all reduced to dust again. Where the Fearless Lord is, there is no fear; where there is fear, the Lord is not there. Kabeer speaks after careful consideration; hear this, O Saints, in your minds. Kabeer, those who do not know anything, pass their lives in peaceful sleep. But I have understood the riddle; I am faced with all sorts of troubles. Struck by the Mystery of God, Kabeer remains silent. Kabeer, the stroke of a lance is easy to bear; it takes away the breath. But one who endures the stroke of the Word of the Shabad is the Guru, and I am his slave. Kabeer: O Mullah, why do you climb to the top of the minaret? The Lord is not hard of hearing. Look within your own heart for the One, for whose sake you shout your prayers. Why does the Shaykh bother to go on pilgrimage to Mecca, if he is not content with himself? Kabeer, one whose heart is not healthy and whole - how can he attain his Lord? Kabeer, worship the Lord Allah; meditating in remembrance on Him, troubles and pains depart. The Lord shall be revealed within your own heart, and the burning fire within shall be extinguished by His Name. Kabeer, to use force is tyranny, even if you call it legal. When your account is called for in the Court of the Lord, what will your condition be then? Kabeer, the dinner of beans and rice is excellent, if it is flavored with salt. Who would cut his throat, to have meat with his bread? Kabeer, one is known to have been touched by the Guru, only when his emotional attachment and physical illnesses are eradicated. He is not burned by pleasure or pain, and so he becomes the Lord Himself. Kabeer, it does make a difference, how you chant the Lord's Name, 'Raam'. This is something to consider. Everyone uses the same word for the son of Dasrath and the Wondrous Lord. Kabeer, use the word 'Raam', only to speak of the All-pervading Lord. You must make that distinction. One 'Raam' is pervading everywhere, while the other is contained only in himself. Kabeer, those houses in which neither the Holy nor the Lord are served – those houses are like cremation grounds; demons dwell within them. Kabeer, I have become mute, insane and deaf. I am crippled - the True Guru has pierced me with His Arrow. Kabeer, the True Guru, the Spiritual Warrior, has shot me with His Arrow. As soon as it struck me, I fell to the ground, with a hole in my heart. Kabeer, the pure drop of water falls from the sky, onto the dirty ground.

Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji

At one level this is a mistranslation and at another misrepresentation of the context within which this is written:

kabeer khoob khaanaa kheechree jaa meh amrit lon. Kabeer, the dinner of beans and rice is excellent, if it is flavored with salt. hayraa rotee kaarnay galaa kataavai ka-un. Who would cut his throat, to have meat with his bread?

Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji

In the above Gurmukhi, there is no mention of meat whatsoever. hayraa rotee kaarnay galaa kataavai ka-un, means literally, who would cut their own throat to eat food. The person who has tried to translate this has added his/her own spin. What this is actually saying is that to the follower of the Guru or one who has been touched by God a simple dish of Kheechree (lentils and rice), flavoured with salt is enough. To have something more exotic to eat you would not cut your own throat (the western equivalent would be to cut your own nose off to spite your face). In no way is this tukh anything to do with meat eating and the person who has misrepresented and mistranslated it should be held to account for his/her actions.

Rebuttal

Having checked 4 translations, (2 on Srigranth, Dr Gopal Singh and Bhai Pritam Singh Chahil Sahib) they say more or less the same thing "Who would cut his throat, to have meat with his bread?" - so this section is removed to dicussion page. You cannot challenge 4 translations of the SGGS without some other proof. Please provide this. Please amend before reinserting, if this is appropriate --Hari Singh 14:41, 27 September 2006 (CDT)

Section 5 - need proof - Original Research

5.In this dark age of Kali Yuga, people have faces like dogs...

.... They eat rotting dead bodies for food. (SGGS p1242) Read full Shabad here

Again, let us put this into context:

Shalok, First Mehl: In this Dark Age of Kali Yuga, people have faces like dogs; they eat rotting carcasses for food. They bark and speak, telling only lies; all thought of righteousness has left them. Those who have no honor while alive, will have an evil reputation after they die. Whatever is predestined, happens, O Nanak; whatever the Creator does, comes to pass.

Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji

At first glance one notices that this paragraph is clearly a metaphor for people who behave like dogs. The dog is a scavenger, hunts in packs, fights within its pack, eats practically anything it can find etc etc. This entire Ang talks about people greed and those that lack honour when they are alive.

The second point to note is the mistranslation. Murdaar is not the word for meat. Murdaar is a reference to people who are dead. In other words people are acting so much like dogs that when people have died they gather round to get as much as they can. A good analogy would be inheritance, where is some instances people try and contest them or try and grab for themselves as much as they can. In India, it has not been unusual to murder siblings of inheritance disputes. In fact the word Murder in the English language has come from the word Murdaar.

Rebuttal

I have checked 2 translations and they both refer to meat - so this is OR. Please produce proof --14:52, 27 September 2006 (CDT)

Section 6 - See comment for section 5

6. Falsehood is my dagger and to eat by defrauding is meat.

(Guru Nanak Dev Ji. Sri Raaj p24) Read Full Shabad here

Let us again see this in context:

Siree Raag, First Mehl, Fourth House: The dogs of greed are with me. In the early morning, they continually bark at the wind. Falsehood is my dagger; through deception, I eat the carcasses of the dead. I live as a wild hunter, O Creator! I have not followed good advice, nor have I done good deeds. I am deformed and horribly disfigured. Your Name alone, Lord, saves the world. This is my hope; this is my support. Pause With my mouth I speak slander, day and night. I spy on the houses of others-I am such a wretched low-life! Unfulfilled sexual desire and unresolved anger dwell in my body, like the outcasts who cremate the dead. I live as a wild hunter, O Creator! I make plans to trap others, although I appear gentle. I am a robber-I rob the world. I am very clever-I carry loads of sin. I live as a wild hunter, O Creator! I have not appreciated what You have done for me, Lord; I take from others and exploit them. What face shall I show You, Lord? I am a sneak and a thief. Nanak describes the state of the lowly. I live as a wild hunter, O Creator!

Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji

Again this is similar to the above translated Shabad. The Guru is clearly making an analogy between people who are acting like dogs. He is even saying that they are barking like dogs.

koorh chhuraa muthaa murdaar. Falsehood is my dagger; through deception, I eat the carcasses of the dead.

Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji

Again Murdaar does not mean meat at all. Murdaar refers to dead people, and how people are literally fighting over one another to get what they think is theirs. They are so consumed with greed and selfishness that they care not for one another, clearly nothing to do with meat eating.

Rebuttal

see comments for section 5 --Hari Singh 14:57, 27 September 2006 (CDT)