Talk:Vegetarianism Other Views

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This Page need cleaning up. I may be able to assist.

Why The Interest In this Page?

Dear Hari Singh, why the interest in this page? This page is the point of view of meat eating Sikh's (ans might I add vegetarian one's).

  • The view that meat eating and vegetarianism has nothing to do with Sikhism is backed up by quotation's from scholar's in the essay's. Will you be challenging thos scholar's too?

--Incredible 03:23, 28 September 2006 (CDT)

Respected Sikh-historians: Guru di fateh,

I am interested in making this page and in fact all Sikh articles more readable and useful to all readers. Just because I do not agree with your view does not mean that you should not be allowed to make them or that they should not be presented in a neat and logical manner. You must be allowed to express your views but they must conform to some basic rules:

  • Stick to verifiable facts only; Neutral Point of View and No Original Research.
  • layout should adhere with normal wiki style so that it is acceptable to most users and in keeping with other such project like Wikipedia.
  • All articles must have support from Gurbani.

If you wish to bring anything about any article to my attention or you do not agree with any of the points that I have made, please feel free to put them on the articles discussion page or my talk page. Your views are most welcomed.

Yoy say <<<The view that meat eating and vegetarianism has nothing to do with Sikhism is backed up…. >>> When you enter any statement on any Wiki that gives the impression of being a fact, it must have backing from several respectable sources to make it stand as such. Any "statement of truth" could be challenged or even removed unless you can provide valid and duplicate references. As a Sikh site anything in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib and other published Banis will be accepted as fact; everything else must have references from independent source of authorities – ie Akal Takhat with copies of Hukamnama for reference, Bhai Gurdas Ji, etc from published literature. Quotes from personal websites or blogs are not acceptable for contentious articles like this. They will be accepted for non-contentious articles only.

You say: "Why are there not the same level of refrences being requested…" The article is based on the following section:

  • 1. an interview with Bhai Thakar Singh – This is verifiable interview with a respected Sikh.
  • 2. Introduction:
    • 2.1 Twelve quotations from SGGS
    • 2.2 Quotation from – verifiable and a respected independent organisation
  • 3. Article by Bhai Manmohan Singh Ji
    • 3.1 The Word Kuthha – main article has only Gurbani quotes
    • 3.2 Guru Gobind Singh's Message – published Granth relating to Bhai Daya Singh
    • 3.3 Consideration of the word Kuthha: more Gurbani quotations here
    • 3.4 Only Shabad cited in support of eating meat – Opposing view also mentioned
    • 3.5 Sakhi of Duni Chand – Well known sakhi
    • 3.6 Quotes from Gurbani – more Gurmat "facts"
  • 4 Other Thoughts – More about Langar and SGPC
  • 5 Alternative View:- Simple discussion of alternative view
  • 6 External Links
  • 7 References – almost 20 references from respected sources.

If you still feel you are not happy with this article please post queries on the talk page or add the tag {{fact}} to the statement within the article where you require quotes or references. Further the layout is good and nearly 5400 hits are registered to this page compared to just over 400 for the alternative article. Presentation and the "believability" of the article is very important and it is our job to make sure that both views are presented in a logical and commendable way.

As I am not an expert on the "alternative view" your help is appreciated and I hope you will agree with my approach. I agree that this view must be presented - it's only the method that needs to be settled. I would welcome any "historical records" that you may have regarding this – as this would help support this article.

I note that you have removed the Shabad from nos: 4 to 11 from the body of the articles – These Shabads need to be tackled by your group otherwise your reputation will be challenged – So I urge you and your colleagues to spend some time looking at these Shabads and presenting a viable and supported alternative view on each one of them. Just by deleting them, the problem is not resolved. To make it easy for you, if you like, put the comments on the talk page for each Shabad and I will transfer them to the main article in a NPOV way. Please note that this will not mean that I accept your view on this matter but just that I accept that some Sikhs hold this alternative view! This is a small difference in words but a big difference in reality!!!

Many thanks, Guru-Ra'kha, --Hari Singh 09:06, 28 September 2006 (CDT)

Hari They Won't Bother You Again!

Hi Hari,

I have told the guys that have been posting here not do so anymore. It is clearly causing argument and splits in areas which was not my intention. Only "Fools Wrangle over Flesh". Feel free to adjust the work as you see fit. Thanks Randip Singh (on behalf of sikh-history).

Best Wishes

Cleaning up

This page needs to be properly presented otherwise it will be deleted.

  • You start with a wrong translation and then argue the matter. The translation for the Shabad on page 1377 does include "fish" – see here. So this is not the correct starting point for the argument. Please make sure you start with the correct translation. --Hari Singh 09:31, 26 September 2006 (CDT)

* Nobody is saying it does not include fish, but the point being argued is that machalee = fish and NOT flesh. A subtle but very important point.--Incredible 16:18, 26 September 2006 (CDT)

Also can we keep the rebuttle's to the vegetarian page. This is an alternative or other view. Rebuttles are not appropriate here. --Incredible 16:43, 26 September 2006 (CDT)

Please deal this the queries here on the discussion page before you delete any material by others. You are free to improve the article but not to revert or delete other parties work without discussion. See the Guidelines on the help section - verifiability, No original research and NPOV are rules that everyone must comply with. Further the article must conform to normal wiki style. Dump from other sites will not be allowed. If you cannot write articles for this site yourself then you are not really interested in the progress to this site. This articles need major improvements and need to follow guidelines. --Hari Singh 13:46, 27 September 2006 (CDT)

  • Most of the work is mine. It is you that is deleting the work. I am merely reverting to the original. Your addition's do not add anything to the essay, but are merely detracting from the Meat Eating Sikh's point of view, which this page is about! I suggest before you edit it, that you discuss it, or does one rule appply to us, and one rule to you?--Incredible 03:23, 28 September 2006 (CDT)

Vegetarianism Other Views NOT Vegetarianism and Rebuttles

Yhis not the page for giving rebuttles on vegetarianism and Sikhism. There is a whole page dedicated to vegetarianism and that not rebuttle enough? Or are not other views allowed here? --Incredible 01:30, 27 September 2006 (CDT)

Initiating & Sustaining A CNTRVRSY(sic! can't spell)is the very ROOT of FALSEHOOD

"..The topic of meat eating is a controversial one...???" --Sayth NANAK NOOOOOOOO! IT IS NOT A TOPIC to BEGIN WITH...Mass Mass Kar...

User:Mutia 27 Sep 06

  • I agree Mutia, however, Vegetarian Sikh's have several page's to express their view's, and Meat Eating Sikh's have this one. When they do express their view it is unfortunately stiffled with bully boy tractics.--Incredible 03:26, 28 September 2006 (CDT)


  • TRUE IDEA(satgur) of handling rebuttals be the Talk/Discussion page of any Article.

User:Mutia 27 Sep 06

Finding a better system

I understand your concerns and I am asking a few of the other interested and wise people connected with Sikhiwiki about how we can best resolve this matter – It is possible that we will have a joint, strict discussion page; or may be changes via the discussion page need to be implemented? We could ask for views on the discussion page and then at the end of the discussion make the amendments - I will come back to you on this one.

I hope you will agree that it is not correct to have un-supported "facts" being highlighted on any article. And having read a few of the entries here on this article, it is clear that a NPOV (neutral point of view) is not been taken. Wrong translations was used as a starting point for the first Shabads; a very narrow interpretation of the meaning of words; wrong translations of words; and no explanation why such narrow approach was used are just a few points I have noticed – So there is concern about this approach and one must mention both POV in all articles and stick to the facts. We will have to decide the best way to get there.

This article as it stands is not acceptable as it is a dump from other sites without adjusting it for its place here as a Sikh resource. This is not acceptable. And I suggest that you look at this very carefully and I suggest that each section has references added otherwise the unsupported text will need to be deleted. All basic concepts must be supported by approved Bani or recorded historical records otherwise it will not be entertained. Views of the Gurus need to be dealt with respect and reverence. On other authority for a Sikh can have the same relevance. No quotes for "undisclosed sources" which are not available can be entertained. Copies of hukamnama must be supplied where they are used. --Hari Singh 13:33, 27 September 2006 (CDT)

Section 3

In this section,

"First point to note is that halaal and bismil, does not mean kill but refers to a specific form of ritual slaughter [citation needed]. Put into context this is a comment on the Muslim sacrifice ritual where either a goat or a chicken is kept in the confines of the home and then ritually slaughtered as obeisance to Abraham. Kabeer is mocking the futility of this ritual and saying, that why are you doing this sacrifice just to emulate God’s asking of Abraham to kill his only son? It is a futile gesture that will not sway God. Abraham was sacrificing his son to God, however all the sacrifice in this instance has achieved is destruction of the outer shell of the chicken. The soul won’t travel to God, but merely to another form. One can only understand this if one has a basic grasp of history. In this instance the person who tried to use this tukh as an anti-meat quotation was unaware of the Koranic context and had an extremely poor knowledge of Semitic history."

We need references to where these words do not refer to "kill". Where in the Shabad does Abraham get mentioned or his son? If it is not in the Shabad, it cannot be in this explanation – Please quote Bani to help with explanation not your own research. This narration will be removed without proper external support. Where does Maharaj say you need history to understand Bani? Is this more OR? --Hari Singh 14:14, 27 September 2006 (CDT)

If you click on the word halaal and bismil, they link to article's that define the two word's. You may be able to link the article's better.--Incredible 03:28, 28 September 2006 (CDT)

Section 4

4. Bhagat Kabir says, that the best food is eating kichree (daal/lentils)

...where nectar sweet is the salt. You eat hunted meat, but which animal is willing to have their head cut ? (SGGS p1374)

Let us add this to the correct context:

The hail-stone has melted into water, and flowed into the ocean.

Kabeer, the body is a pile of dust, collected and packed together.
It is a show which lasts for only a few days, and then dust returns to dust.
Kabeer, bodies are like the rising and setting of the sun and the moon.
Without meeting the Guru, the Lord of the Universe, they are all reduced to dust again.
Where the Fearless Lord is, there is no fear; where there is fear, the Lord is not there.
Kabeer speaks after careful consideration; hear this, O Saints, in your minds.
Kabeer, those who do not know anything, pass their lives in peaceful sleep.
But I have understood the riddle; I am faced with all sorts of troubles.
Struck by the Mystery of God, Kabeer remains silent.
Kabeer, the stroke of a lance is easy to bear; it takes away the breath.
But one who endures the stroke of the Word of the Shabad is the Guru, and I am his slave.
Kabeer: O Mullah, why do you climb to the top of the minaret? The Lord is not hard of hearing.
Look within your own heart for the One, for whose sake you shout your prayers.
Why does the Shaykh bother to go on pilgrimage to Mecca, if he is not content with himself?
Kabeer, one whose heart is not healthy and whole - how can he attain his Lord?
Kabeer, worship the Lord Allah; meditating in remembrance on Him, troubles and pains depart.
The Lord shall be revealed within your own heart, and the burning fire within shall be extinguished by His Name.
Kabeer, to use force is tyranny, even if you call it legal.
When your account is called for in the Court of the Lord, what will your condition be then?
Kabeer, the dinner of beans and rice is excellent, if it is flavored with salt.
Who would cut his throat, to have meat with his bread?
Kabeer, one is known to have been touched by the Guru, only when his emotional attachment and physical illnesses are eradicated.
He is not burned by pleasure or pain, and so he becomes the Lord Himself.
Kabeer, it does make a difference, how you chant the Lord's Name, 'Raam'. This is something to consider.
Everyone uses the same word for the son of Dasrath and the Wondrous Lord.
Kabeer, use the word 'Raam', only to speak of the All-pervading Lord. You must make that distinction.
One 'Raam' is pervading everywhere, while the other is contained only in himself.
Kabeer, those houses in which neither the Holy nor the Lord are served –
those houses are like cremation grounds; demons dwell within them.
Kabeer, I have become mute, insane and deaf.
I am crippled - the True Guru has pierced me with His Arrow.
Kabeer, the True Guru, the Spiritual Warrior, has shot me with His Arrow.
As soon as it struck me, I fell to the ground, with a hole in my heart.
Kabeer, the pure drop of water falls from the sky, onto the dirty ground.

Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji

At one level this is a mistranslation and at another misrepresentation of the context within which this is written:

kabeer khoob khaanaa kheechree jaa meh amrit lon.

Kabeer, the dinner of beans and rice is excellent, if it is flavored with salt.

hayraa rotee kaarnay galaa kataavai ka-un.
Who would cut his throat, to have meat with his bread?

Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji

In the above Gurmukhi, there is no mention of meat whatsoever. hayraa rotee kaarnay galaa kataavai ka-un, means literally, who would cut their own throat to eat food. The person who has tried to translate this has added his/her own spin. What this is actually saying is that to the follower of the Guru or one who has been touched by God a simple dish of Kheechree (lentils and rice), flavoured with salt is enough. To have something more exotic to eat you would not cut your own throat (the western equivalent would be to cut your own nose off to spite your face). In no way is this tukh anything to do with meat eating and the person who has misrepresented and mistranslated it should be held to account for his/her actions.


Having checked 4 translations, (2 on Srigranth, Dr Gopal Singh and Bhai Pritam Singh Chahil Sahib) they say more or less the same thing "Who would cut his throat, to have meat with his bread?" - so this section is removed to dicussion page. You cannot challenge 4 translations of the SGGS without some other proof. Please provide this. Please amend before reinserting, if this is appropriate --Hari Singh 14:41, 27 September 2006 (CDT)

Again the article is challenging those translation's. This is a meat eaters point of view. No one is claiming it is neutral. If the article is not to you liking, then I suggest you delete any refernce to Vegetarianism OTHER Views. Thanks --Incredible 03:30, 28 September 2006 (CDT)

Section 5 - need proof - Original Research

5.In this dark age of Kali Yuga, people have faces like dogs...

.... They eat rotting dead bodies for food. (SGGS p1242) Read full Shabad here

Again, let us put this into context:

Shalok, First Mehl:

In this Dark Age of Kali Yuga, people have faces like dogs; they eat rotting carcasses for food.
They bark and speak, telling only lies; all thought of righteousness has left them.
Those who have no honor while alive, will have an evil reputation after they die.
Whatever is predestined, happens, O Nanak; whatever the Creator does, comes to pass.

Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji

At first glance one notices that this paragraph is clearly a metaphor for people who behave like dogs. The dog is a scavenger, hunts in packs, fights within its pack, eats practically anything it can find etc etc. This entire Ang talks about people greed and those that lack honour when they are alive.

The second point to note is the mistranslation. Murdaar is not the word for meat. Murdaar is a reference to people who are dead. In other words people are acting so much like dogs that when people have died they gather round to get as much as they can. A good analogy would be inheritance, where is some instances people try and contest them or try and grab for themselves as much as they can. In India, it has not been unusual to murder siblings of inheritance disputes. In fact the word Murder in the English language has come from the word Murdaar.


I have checked 2 translations and they both refer to meat - so this is OR. Please produce proof --14:52, 27 September 2006 (CDT)

Section 6 - See comment for section 5

6. Falsehood is my dagger and to eat by defrauding is meat.

(Guru Nanak Dev Ji. Sri Raaj p24) Read Full Shabad here

Let us again see this in context:

Siree Raag, First Mehl, Fourth House:

The dogs of greed are with me.
In the early morning, they continually bark at the wind.
Falsehood is my dagger; through deception, I eat the carcasses of the dead.
I live as a wild hunter, O Creator!
I have not followed good advice, nor have I done good deeds.
I am deformed and horribly disfigured.
Your Name alone, Lord, saves the world.
This is my hope; this is my support. Pause
With my mouth I speak slander, day and night.
I spy on the houses of others-I am such a wretched low-life!
Unfulfilled sexual desire and unresolved anger dwell in my body, like the outcasts who cremate the dead.
I live as a wild hunter, O Creator!
I make plans to trap others, although I appear gentle.
I am a robber-I rob the world.
I am very clever-I carry loads of sin.
I live as a wild hunter, O Creator!
I have not appreciated what You have done for me, Lord; I take from others and exploit them.
What face shall I show You, Lord? I am a sneak and a thief.
Nanak describes the state of the lowly.
I live as a wild hunter, O Creator!

Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji

Again this is similar to the above translated Shabad. The Guru is clearly making an analogy between people who are acting like dogs. He is even saying that they are barking like dogs.

koorh chhuraa muthaa murdaar.

Falsehood is my dagger; through deception, I eat the carcasses of the dead.

Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji

Again Murdaar does not mean meat at all. Murdaar refers to dead people, and how people are literally fighting over one another to get what they think is theirs. They are so consumed with greed and selfishness that they care not for one another, clearly nothing to do with meat eating.


see comments for section 5 --Hari Singh 14:57, 27 September 2006 (CDT)

Again, this is challenging the translation's as well as the meaning, so to refer to traditional translations would be the just plain stupidity. --Incredible 03:32, 28 September 2006 (CDT)

For some of the word's we have used this disctionary as an example --Incredible 05:50, 28 September 2006 (CDT)

Section 7 - see comments for section 5

7. Avarice is a dog, falsehood the sweeper and cheating the eating of meat. (Guru Nanak Dev Ji. Sri Raag p15)

Let us put this last shabad in context with its correct translation:

sireeraag mehlaa 1.

lab kutaa koorh choohrhaa thag khaaDhaa murdaar.
par nindaa par mal mukh suDhee agan kroDh chandaal.
ras kas aap salaahnaa ay karam mayray kartaar.
baabaa bolee-ai pat ho-ay.
ootam say dar ootam kahee-ahi neech karam bahi ro-ay. rahaa-o.
ras su-inaa ras rupaa kaaman ras parmal kee vaas.
ras ghorhay ras sayjaa mandar ras meethaa ras maas.
aytay ras sareer kay kai ghat naam nivaas.
jit boli-ai pat paa-ee-ai so boli-aa parvaan.
fikaa bol viguchnaa sun moorakh man ajaan.
jo tis bhaaveh say bhalay hor ke kahan vakhaan.
tin mat tin pat tin Dhan palai jin hirdai rahi-aa samaa-ay.
tin kaa ki-aa salaahnaa avar su-aali-o kaa-ay.
naanak nadree baahray raacheh daan na naa-ay.

Siree Raag, First Mehl: Greed is a dog; falsehood is a filthy street-sweeper. Cheating is eating a rotting carcass.
Slandering others is putting the filth of others into your own mouth. The fire of anger is the outcaste who burns dead bodies at the crematorium.
I am caught in these tastes and flavors, and in self-conceited praise. These are my actions, O my Creator!
O Baba, speak only that which will bring you honor.
They alone are good, who are judged good at the Lord's Door. Those with bad karma can only sit and weep.
The pleasures of gold and silver, the pleasures of women, the pleasure of the fragrance of sandalwood,
the pleasure of horses, the pleasure of a soft bed in a palace, the pleasure of sweet treats and the pleasure of hearty meals
these pleasures of the human body are so numerous; how can the Naam, the Name of the Lord, find its dwelling in the heart?
Those words are acceptable, which, when spoken, bring honor.
Harsh words bring only grief. Listen, O foolish and ignorant mind!
Those who are pleasing to Him are good. What else is there to be said?
Wisdom, honor and wealth are in the laps of those whose hearts remain permeated with the Lord.
What praise can be offered to them? What other adornments can be bestowed upon them?
O Nanak, those who lack the Lord's Glance of Grace cherish neither charity nor the Lord's Name.

Sry Guru Granth Sahib ji

Again clearly a mistranslation and mischief making on the part of someone who wishes to convey a certain message.

lab kutaa koorh choohrhaa thag khaaDhaa murdaar.
Greed is a dog; falsehood is a filthy street-sweeper. Cheating is eating a rotting carcass.

Sry Guru Granth Sahib ji

Again Murdaar is not Meat but is dead people. The entire Ang is talking about people who fall prey to the 5 thieves, Kaam, Krodh, Moh, Lobh and Hankaar.

Other Sections

The rest of the article need major editing and insertion of references. I give some examples below:


There are several reasons behind why these mistranslations and misrepresentations have occurred:

  • The publishers have a lack of education and do not understand the meaning of words in Gurmukhi and the correct translation into English. [citation needed] Give references for your view - who else has said this - give a few references as this is a very strong statement. Why are Dr Sant Singh, Dr Gopal Singh, Bhai Manmohan Singh, Bhai Pritam Singh' translations all not acceptable?

The article is saying that current translation's are not accurate enough. --Incredible 03:50, 28 September 2006 (CDT)

  • In their eagerness to promote their own brand of Sikhism (Sant, Jatha etc) they have deliberately allowed mistranslation and misrepresentation.[citation needed] [references needed OR?] Give references of who has said this and it needs to be someone of substance and not a private website - Akal Takhat; prominent Gursikh; etc. Why are some of the scholars quoted in this article relevant; Why rely on quotes by scholars rather than Gurbani or prominent Gursikhs like Bhai Gurdas, etc

It is the Sikh Meat Eater's point of view? That is the point of this page is it not? --Incredible 03:50, 28 September 2006 (CDT)

  • Genuine abhorrence of killing animals can be a motivation too (eg those people that believe in Animal Rights), however Sikhism should not be used as a tool to promote such agendas. Why is Sikhism not compatible with AR [Gurbani citation needed]

Because one looses true objectivity, and is promoting a certain agenda and mindset when reading Sikh texts. --Incredible 03:50, 28 September 2006 (CDT)

  • Poor knowledge of history and the context in which the Guru’s and Bhaghats wrotes these Angs is a factor too. This can lead to a misrepresentation. [Gurbani citation needed] Where in Gurbani does it say that knowledge of history is required to understand the Guru's message

It does not say this in Bani and it does not need to either. The suggestion here is that a greater knowledge of Sikh History can lead to greater understanding of Bani. Let me give you an example. When Guru Nanak wrote many of his Shabads, Babur commited many attrocities in the North Wesern Area of India. The are some Shabads that directly relate to this event. Most children from the last centtury growing up in India would be aware of these events and the background and can therefore understand a deper fuller meaning. Many (especially in the Wet), do not know of these events and therefore have a more superficial knowledge of Gurbani. Again, this is a viewpoint, and does not claim to be Neutral. --Incredible 03:50, 28 September 2006 (CDT)

In conclusion one can only say that it is very important that Sikh institution promote a clear and concise programme where only those with a certain amount of knowledge in Sikh History and the Sikh Language, should be officially sanctioned as being translators for the Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji.

Delete The Entire Page And Refrence to Sikh Diet

The suggestion from us is to delete all page's that allude or express views towards a particular Sikh Diet, if the keeper's of this site want to truly main neutral, or leave both view points intact and let the reader make his/her own mind up as to what is what. Thanks. --Incredible 03:50, 28 September 2006 (CDT)

Kabeer Kookar Raam Ko.........

Neechan andar neech jaat neechi hun ati neech.....

  • TRUTH god's DOG named Mutia truthfully & humbly recommends that the above suggestion be implemented straight away.
  • Let us Sikhs resolve to propagate, glorify, discuss, share...... . no 'Ism' but Nanak's eternal TRUTH (Mool Mantar i e Satnaam) & TRUE IDEAs to TRUTH' (Gur Mantar i.e. Vahiguru)
  • Let us to Sikhs resolve to profess the philosophy of ONE ( Sachy Gur Granth Sahib begines from ONE ) and NOT repeat NOT of duality ('BHAU DUA......'-Sachy Gur Granth Sahib).

ਸੰਤ ਕ੝ਰਿਪਾ ਤੇ ਹਿਰਦੈ ਵਾਸੈ ਦੂਜਾ ਭਾਉ ਮਿਟਾਵਨਾ ॥2॥

  • Let us Sikhs resolve not to differentiate (dx/dy : add 'dx' and MATHEMATICAL nay! more easily, SOCIAL expression changes from TRUE to FALSE. As it is, countless non-Gurmat philosophies are doing a wonderful job. We Sikhs do not in any way, need to contribute to it)
  • Let us Sikhs resolve to integrate (sum up all the 'dx's) to create ONE expression which should be nothing but TRUTH.
  • Let us Sikhs decide on ONE translation as Master for referring to Gurbani on Sikhiwiki. (This for sure will ease out things.) Let us Sikhs jointly improve upon ( I think that is what Sikh Gurus, Bhai Veer Singh ji & Professor Sahib Singh ji spent their life times with ) the contents of the Master.
  • Let us Sikhs (to begin with on Sikhiwiki) start crafting TRUE IDEAs to supplement to the contents of that translation, if so required.
  • Mutia recommends that Professor Sahib Singh's DARPAN be honored

as Master Gur (Gurbani word meaning GURU (Shabads or IDEAs)) Fateh  !  User:Mutia 10 Oct 06

not sikhs alone, all HUMANS are meant to be vegetarians

its not about what you think or where you've got these translations from cus half of em are falsely translated, the translations are only done in what seems to be written in the text, have this translated by someone who has a higher level of spirituality and you will see that infact the quotes in the main page are slappin you in the face and telling you that sikhs aren't supposed to eat meat. a perfect few (meaning theres loads more) quotes translated from the guru granth sahib and kabir sahib-

like a goblin u eat the forbidden carcases of meat. control ur urges or the lord will seize you and throw you into hell. GGS 723-15 (is that not enough lol) more..


'the man who eats meat is a demon in human form, keep away from him- his company will ruin your meditation' K.S.S. p161:1 ( a little on meditation but more on living your life below)

'who eat meat and fish, who relish drugs and wine, their very roots as humans will be wiped out, like radishes uprooted by the farmer' K.S.S. p161:2 (it is very difficult to attain the human form and once attained shouldn't be wasted and thrown away by becoming attached to the five passions, eating meat basically will loose you the right to return to GOD)

'All flesh is the same, be it of cow, deer or hen; men who fondly eat their meat will find a berth in the fires of hell' K.S.S. p162:3 (quite scary)

'flesh is a dog's food, not his who is blessed with the human form; if a man allows meat to enter his mouth, he will one day enter the gates of hell' K.S.S p162:4

' They who kill, will in turn be killed, whether they kill for eating or for sport; they will be dragged by the hair and taken to task by the ruthless minions of Kal' K.S.S p162:6 (that being in hell)

'if one eats even a grain of fish and then gives a million cows in charity, or submits to the holy saw at Kasi, still the inevitable result will be a seat in the flames of hell' K.S.S p162:7

this one hurts - 'you violently slaughter innocent animals and claim it to be in keeping with the canons of your creed; but when GOD places before you the record of your cruel deeds, what will your fate be?' GGS p1375 :199

'Kabir, eat porridge to your fill with the seasoning of salt; who would eat meat and get his own throat cut?' GGS p1374:188

'hindus have no kindness, turks have no mercy in their hearts; says kabir, both will be dragged down by the currents of the eighty four' K.S.S p163:16 ( not neccesarily meaning that anyone else is safe, this simply refers to the time that kabir sahib was living, turks being muslims. He refers to them as unkind and basically ruthless meaning that they kill animals and so on) ( the eighty four as many of you know is the life stream that one has to go through to attain the human form- you cannot simply waste the time as a human given to you as it is basically a blessing.

Sayth TRYTH god...Share..

nothing but following TRUTHs with HUMANITY thruogh resources gifted by TRUTH god to Humanity.

---User:Mutia 09 Apr 07 PS: I am not even a Sikh. I am a GurSukh trying to catch the 4th step of Gurbani to baptize myself in the order of Khalsa. I am sure my having cutt off & gifted my head to SatGurBani ,the only language & mother toung of Khalsa will have mercy on this mutia & all Sikhs & keep them away from ManMukhs who speak the language of Devil.

Ur a black sheep

I just want to cover a few points and arguments which you have bought up throughout ur argument of how ‘meatism’ is what the gurus have not addressed in any of the cases when the quotes are quite literally hittin you square between the eyes along with general arguments from the population of meaties. Don’t change the quotes and teachings of the gurus to comfort your own insecurities and don’t follow the misinterpretations and falseness of others because that is simply what sheep do. By doing so you are putting a black mark on the gurus and all others which have preached a vegetarian lifestyle.

People say that the gurus hunted for meat and basically as sport, why on Earth would they commit themselves to such sins and this sort of lifestyle when they taught of a vegetarian lifestyle. Not only would they be massively contradicting themselves but im sure that If they did people would think that they were rather crazy and I doubt very much that there would be a sikh religion now.

Regardless of whether kabir is criticising the rich in his words from the adi granth, this does not necessarily make it ok for poor to eat meat also, he only refers to how the rich are slightly more brainwashed in the fact that they have the power to do so much. You have taken this point well out of proportion.

One Universal Creator God. By The Grace Of The True Guru: He does not honor his ancestors while they are alive, but he holds feasts in their honor after they have died. Tell me, how can his poor ancestors receive what the crows and the dogs have eaten up? If only someone would tell me what real happiness is! Speaking of happiness and joy, the world is perishing. How can happiness be found?Pause Making gods and goddesses out of clay, people sacrifice living beings to them. Such are your dead ancestors, who cannot ask for what they want. You murder living beings and worship lifeless things; at your very last moment, you shall suffer in terrible pain. You do not know the value of the Lord's Name; you shall drown in the terrifying world-ocean. You worship gods and goddesses, but you do not know the Supreme Lord God. Says Kabeer, you have not remembered the Lord who has no ancestors; you are clinging to your corrupt ways. Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji

This passage clearly puts into context that you shouldn’t take the lives of animals, you will suffer pain for both worshiping lifeless things, and for taking the lives of animals.

jit tan naam na bhaav-ee tit tan ha-umai vaad. gur bin gi-aan na paa-ee-ai bikhi-aa doojaa saad. bin gun kaam na aavee maa-i-aa feekaa saad. aasaa andar jammi-aa aasaa ras kas khaa-ay.

That body which does not appreciate the Naam-that body is infested with egotism and conflict. Without the Guru, spiritual wisdom is not obtained; other tastes are poison. Without virtue, nothing is of any use. The taste of Maya is bland and insipid. Through desire, people are cast into the womb and reborn. Through desire, they taste the sweet and sour flavors. Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji

Ok now this quote says that the body is infested with egotism and so on when disrespected. By throwing meat into your body you are disrespecting it. You also say that the body is the temple or as stated in the guru granth sahib- ‘har mandir eh shareer he, giaan rataan pargut hoye’- simply saying that the ‘living’ body is GODs temple, how can you even dare litter this temple with death, this is no longer a temple but a mass graveyard. Do you think GOD has not tried to send this message down, why is it that the majority of diseases originate from meat indulgences. The fifth guru clearly states that the only reason we have this human birth is to accomplish the lord and has no other significance, take this human birth as a blessing, this is half of the key to the exit of this prison, why waste it.

Now how does the eating of meat or vegetables promote any type of behaviour and where the hell does adolf Hitler come into the spiritual equation, was he a gurmukh? (why has this been concealed from the world for so long?). You eat meat on a daily basis, is this not classed as some sort of holocaust of animals.

Who cares about the opinions of the sikh scholars, to me and to others I believe that they are nothing, the only teachings that we have to follow is that of the gurus.

Now you say that kuttha meat is meat that has been killed via rituals. Now from my understanding meat is killed on a daily basis so how can you not call that a ritual, I think your viewpoint and scope is very narrow minded, comical but nonetheless very interesting. U have a very vivid imagination (go and write a childrens book)

Now it says in the adi granth that Kal sends down his agents in the form of human beings who deter people from the tru teachings of the gurus and mate I think you’ve been caught red handed Mr jamdhooth lolllllzzz.

Beg Pardon

  • Sir please permit me to beg pardon, if in my immaturish zeal fueled by nothing but love for SatGurBani & in a bid to I become a TRUE Sikh ( as on now I am NOT. I am only at 3rd of the 38 Steps. Every Sikh in his life time has to become flawless Khalsa before death ), I inadvertantly sounded offinssive.

Hearty Thanks

  • Thanks for providing me with Straight, Frank, Forcefull & Hard Hitting feed back I had been yerning for since I joined SikhiWiki. Promise to do a better job in future.
  • So far I had been contributing to the first two pillers of Sikhism(Learnism). At least that is what I thought I was doing but I am not realy very sure.
  • Thanks for giving me enough food for Thought thus enabling me to contribute to the third piller of Sikhism(Learnism) ie ..
    • Relentlessly introspect through the reflections of Bani.

Meatism vs Vegism

  • Sir I am sure you will help me in climbing to the 4th Step of Sikhism by not insisting on discussion on the issue of 'Meatism vs Vegism', i would have loved to but SatGurBani does not permit it in a social domain.

User: Mutia 11 apr 07

What about eggs

Saadh sangat ji, Waheguru ji ka khalsa, Shri Waheguru ji ki fateh.

I read through very useful pages written about consumption of meat. My question is whether there is any guidance about eating eggs in gurbani/sikhism. I would really appreaciate if some gursikh having knowledge can share with us.

Thanks Baljinder Singh