Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji First, and then Bhai Gurdas

That should be the order. All shabads are equally important. So please put the Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji first and then put Bhai Gurdas. Bhai Gurdas maybe the key, but Bhai Gurdas would have nothing to open if the Sri Guru Granth Sahib didn't exist. It is like putting the "cart before the horse".

Without the key the lock cannot be opened

I understand what you say about Gurbani and agree that Gurbani has more importance than Bhai Gurdas ji's Varan but I think the Varan have a special place for Sikhism because Guru Sahib himself particularly called the Varan the key to Gurbani - to me it means that without the key, the lock (Gurbani) cannot be unlocked. In my opinion, you need this key to unlock the mysteries of Gurbani. And that is why I have put it first.

The key comes first so that the reader is in possession of the key before he or she approaches the lock (ie: Gurbani) so that they can open this lock with ease and do not have any hindrance.

I hope you agree – but if you don't then I will bow to your request in this instance as it is more important that we have a little bit of "give and take" in these matters. Please feel free to change the position of the Varan to after the Shabads or just let me know and I will change the position.

Many thanks for your huge amount of time and dedication, input and help in promoting the divine message of our Guru. --Hari Singh 14:42, 13 August 2006 (CDT)

You Need to Make The Decision

Outsiders may get the impression that Bhai Gurdas's Varan are more important to Sikhs than the Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji. The rest I leave to you.

Making Changes to an Article:

Please do not change the layout on any article without first discussing it on the talk page of the article. Once the discussion has taken place, the decision will be made as to change or not change the layout or content of that page. Some users have spent many months working on this project and it is unfair for a newcomer to join and start making dramatic changes to these articles. Please respect and give thought to the other contributors, who may have spent a lot of time on this project. Regarding the article SGGS on Meat and other topics which are Controversial the following applies:

Controversial Topic

As this is a "Controversial Topic", strict rules apply as to what can be put on pages dealing with this topic and the changes that can be made. The creation of new pages is not allowed until the existing pages have grown to a reasonable size. Please discuss matters here before you do anything to this page.

Controlled Page

The SGGS on Meat is purely a page for Gurbani and other recognised texts – ie Bhai Gurdas' Varan, etc. This is a "Controlled Page" and strictly no other text is allowed apart from a "controlled introduction" which cannot be changed. So please only add recognised Gurbani text and verified translations. No other text will be allowed without first discussing the matter.

Supporting Pages

As an off-shoot of the "Controlled Page", we have the Vegetarianism and Vegetarianism Other Views pages. These are called the "Supporting Pages". These are the pages where the differing opinions have to be stated. Most users will only be able to change these pages provided the changes are first discussed. Each of these pages should just deal with the views, opinions and research to do with the opinion being supported. ie: Normally this would be the title of the page. References and historic records must be given wherever an opinion is stated or needed. If these references are not given, after warnings, these views will be removed. Links to other websites may not be sufficient as anyone can now set up a website and state their personally views/historic record. We require support from Gurbani, Bhai Gurdas Varan, recorded historical material or historical books with the necessary research to establish the authenticity of the material.

I would ask you to co-operate with this policy so that we can provide a credible view of Sikhism to the public. If you have any queries, please do not hesitate to put them on my user page.

Many thanks in anticipation. (--talk) Hari Singh 07:37, 12 August 2006 (CDT)

EATING

SGGS quotations ONLY

Please note that all statements on this article SGGS on Meat MUST be supported by tuks from SGGS or other historical records or sources otherwise the added material will be instantly removed. If you continue to misuse the edit facility, you will be barred from making changes. --Hari Singh 16:12, 27 July 2006 (CDT)

"gaibaan haivaan haraam kustanee murdaar bakhoraa-ay" AND "murdar"

The above line says "Haraam" (impure) to which the opposite is "Halaal"(pure). "Murdar" does not mean kill, as in refrence to animals. Murdar is only used in refrences to human death. I think this lines with refrence to this and diet should be removed from this page. (posted by NeutralObserver on 5 August 2006 at 12:45)

Reply by HS to NeutralObserver

Dear NeutralObserver,

Many thanks for your valued contribution. I have added the link to the Shabad so we all know what we are talking about.

I agree with your observation that "haraam" is almost "impure" although I would have said forbidden, sinful and that this is opposite to "halal" which in one context does mean pure/legal but it can nowadays also mean "killed /slaughtered" subject to the muslim way.

I have carried out a search via Srigranth.org and 2 dictionaries for the word Murdaa and Murdaar. I list my results below. I am sorry that this does not appear to support your view that a Murdaa only refers to a human dead body. Unfortunately, it appears to support the view that a Murdaa is any dead body

Please note the translation of the word "murdaar" from

• 1 Srigranth.org
• 2 Dictionary of Guru Granth Sahib by Surinder Singh Kohli
• 3 Punjabi - English English - Punjabi Dictionary by Krishan Kumar Goswami

• from 1: SGGS Gurmukhi-Gurmukhi Dictionary: ਲੋਥ ਤ੝ਲ ਅਵਿਤਰ ਵਸਤ, ਹਰਾਮ

• from 1 & 2 (p233): SGGS Gurmukhi-English Dictionary: Per. n. Corpse, dead body, corrion

SGGS Gurmukhi-English Data provided by Harjinder Singh Gill, Santa Monica, CA, USA.

• from 1: English Translation: Dead. Exhumation.

• from 3 (p286): Murdaa - Corpse, dead body, carcass, Lifeless, Deceased

Murdaar Lifeless, dead

• from 1: Mahan Kosh Encyclopedia ਫ਼ਾ. __ ਲੋਥ. ਸ਼ਵ. ਪ੝ਰਾਣ ਰਹਿਤ ਦੇਹ। ੨. ਸ੝ਵਸਤਕਾਰ ਅਤੇ ਸ਼ੂਰਵੀਰਤਾ ਰਹਿਤ. “ਅੰਧੀ ਰਯਤਿ ਗਿਆਨ ਵਿਹੂਣੀ ਭਾਹਿ ਭਰੇ ਮ੝ਰਦਾਰ੝”. (ਵਾਰ ਆਸਾ) ਭੋਹ (ਭੂਸੇ) ਨਾਲ ਭਰੀਆਂ ਲੇਖਾਂ। ੩. ਭਾਵ ਮ੝ਰਦਾਰ ਤੱਲ ਅਪਵਿਤ੝ਰ ਚੀਜ਼. ਧਰਮ ਅਨ੝ਸਾਰ ਨਾ ਖਾਣ ਯੋਗ੝ਯ. ਹਰਾਮ. “ਕੂੜ੝ ਬੋਲਿ ਮ੝ਰਦਾਰ੝ ਖਾਇ”. (ਮਃ ੧. ਵਾਰ ਮਾਝ) “ਦ੝ਨੀਆ ਮ੝ਰਦਾਰਖ੝ਰਦਨੀ”. (ਤਿਲੰ ਮਃ ੫) “ਠਗਿ ਖਾਧਾ ਮ੝ਰਦਾਰ੝”. (ਸ੝ਰੀ ਮਃ ੧).

Mahan Kosh data provided by Bhai Baljinder Singh (RaraSahib Wale); See http://www.ik13.com

Please refer to the Shabad given below and see what you think? - Only 2 lines quoted, but please click on the link to see the whole of the Shabad. Please give me your view of each lines.

I sorry that at present your evidence does not support warranting a change. Could you please explain further why you feel that this Shabad should not be under this section. I will be much obliged if you could explain to me exactly what message this Shabad conveys to you.

I appreciate your help and I hope we will come to an amicable understanding on this matter and that our difference here however large will not distract us from pursuing the higher goal of promoting Sikh values globally. Many thanks for your time and continued interest and support of the site. --Hari Singh 11:00, 5 August 2006 (CDT)

The Spirit Of The Shabad

The spirit of the shabad does not warrant itself in these cases to narrowly mean issue surrounding meat. If you wish to see what Guru Nanak's view then you should quote his shabad. I am sure you know which one I mean. -- NeutralObserver 09:44, 6 August 2006

Reply to "Spirit of the Shabad" by HS

I am all for supporting you in awakening the spirit of all Shabads in the SGGS and please accept that I do not want to narrow the meaning of Gurbani – My prime aim is foremost to learn the real meaning of each tuk of Gurbani – First at a "syntax" level and then moral level and ultimately at the spiritual level.

Please feel free to quote any Shabad that you wish as it can only be a help to the discussion – I am not sure which Shabad you mean, please give me the page number and I am sure I will see what you mean.

I hope you will accept that I am as keen as anyone else to learn the deeper meaning of the Guru's message but feel that it can only be done with a frank, open and unflustered positions on this issue. What I mean is that the fact that I don't eat meat now and someone else may eat meat, should not have an overriding impact on what we say; how we research a subject; what we present in a discussion; and our general attitude to how we say things, etc. Let us be frank and completely open and I am sure that the Guru will then guide us to the correct path.

If we are entrenched in our positions then that is Manmat – Let us together explore what our Gurus have said and then see if we can or cannot follow His word. We all accept that to keep Hair; not drink alcohol; not smoke; etc is Gurmat. Do we all follow these teachings – Well, obviously not. So, in the end why should someone who cannot follow these clear guidance be discussing this matter about whether meat is allowed or not allowed if they have not got the guts to follow all already clearly established issues that are totally accepted by the Panth.

Lets only discuss this matter if on coming to a conclusion, the participants will without fail follow the outcome of the discussion or have the intention of following the result of the discussion. If this is not so, then what is the point of the discussion? We have to have a balance between knowledge for the sake of knowledge and the principles to Gurmat. It is our duty to follow the word to the Guru once we know clearly what it is! --Hari Singh 16:16, 6 August 2006 (CDT)

Is This the Shabad Neutral Observer?

(For the complete Shabad - See Main article page or click on link to Srigranth.org)

When Going To The Butchers

When going to the butchers, people do not order Corpse, dead body, corrion or Corpse, dead body, carcass, Lifeless, Deceased :

from 1: SGGS Gurmukhi-Gurmukhi Dictionary: ਲੋਥ ਤ੝ਲ ਅਵਿਤਰ ਵਸਤ, ਹਰਾਮ from 1 & 2 (p233): SGGS Gurmukhi-English Dictionary: Per. n. Corpse, dead body, corrion SGGS Gurmukhi-English Data provided by Harjinder Singh Gill, Santa Monica, CA, USA.

from 1: English Translation: Dead. Exhumation. from 3 (p286): Murdaa - Corpse, dead body, carcass, Lifeless, Deceased Murdaar Lifeless, dead

They may say "Maas" or "Flesh".

Murdaar is a word used in connection with human bodies. If a pile of dead goats was lying on the ground, people would not say "Mudaar" in refrence to them. If however dead bodies were lying there of human, people would refer to them as Murdaar. I suppose Murdaar is more of a respectful term and therfore used in conjuction with humans.

I don't know how else to explain it, but Murdaar in this context sounds very funny to me when I say it in Punjabi.

When Going To Vegetable Stand - Reply to Ridiculous

Hi Ridiculous

Point Number 1 Using a word in an Usual Situations

I don't think that your post really addresses the issue of the definition of the word because, for example, I would not go to a Veg-stand and ask for 2 kgs of Dead carrot" or "1 dozen dead apples", etc", would I? So your analogy goes not actually take us any further with the definition. So I agree that it sounds funny – But that is not how you check to see if the word's definition is correct. If you saw a dead cow in the lake, would you ask – Keya yaa Gaoo ka murdaa hai?

Point Number 2 More Dictionaries

The definition of the words is taken from renowned sources and must be deemed reliable. So the word Murdaa means Corpse, dead body, carcass, Lifeless, Deceased and the word Murdaar means Lifeless, dead

Further,

• Translation at site: Urdu Dictionary gives the result "Dead"

• Dictionary at: this site gives the entry: P murdĝr [mur(dan), q.v.+dĝr = tĝr = Pehl. tar = Zend tar = S. तारढ़], s.m. A dead body, a corpse; a carcass;--carrion; a piece of carrion;--adj. Dead; impure, unclean, polluted; dirty; squalid; ugly; profane; obscene;--intj. You carrion! wretch! vile creature!:--murdĝr- ḵẖẉĝr, s.m. An eater of carrion; a carrion-crow; a vul- ture:--murdĝr-sang, vulg. murdĝ-sang, s.m. Dross of lead; protoxide of lead, litharge.

• Dictionary at: this site gives the entry: murdah: P adj. dead/weak/decrepit
• Dictionary at: this site gives the entry: Murdah - Dead, Decrepit, Lifeless, Weak, Wimp

Point Number 3 the Word "Murdaar" in Gurbani

In the Shabad below, the word "Murdaar" is used twice:

I think looking at the third line, Bani say: "Like a …beast – they kill & eat …" Surely, in most cases, beasts kill animal & eat them. In very few cases, would it be a human that would be killed by a beast. I hope you agree with this statement.

Conclusion

I think we can say with confidence that the word "Mudaa" mean Corpse, dead body, carcass, Lifeless, Deceased

--Hari Singh

Let us Sikhs glorify nothing in any way ever, but LORD TRUTH. Amost the entire Non- Sikh population, at least in India, as it is doing enough to profess that No 1 sin in this universe is 'eating meat' & only route to realise GOD is vegetarianism. Let us Spread the Word of nothing but NAAM(Live Truthfull life & draw sustinance fron nothing but TRUE IDEAs ie Satgur/Shabad/Guru/SGGS ,DAAN(Share TRUTH & TRUE IDEAs) & ISHNAAN Teach no one but our own self.

--Amita Singh

Can We Have The Entire Pauri 17 (She Goat)?

Here is Pauri from:

Page 104 Dr Jodh Singh - Varan Bhai Gurdas

'A goat was caught by a lion and while about to die, it gave out a horse laugh. The surprised lion asked why it was so happy at such a moment (of its death). Humbly the goat replied that the testicles of our male progeny are crushed in oder to castrate them. We eat only wild plants of arid regions yet our skin is peeled and pounded. I think about the plight of those (like you) who cut the throat of others and eat their flesh. The body of both the proud and the humble will become dust ultimately, but, even the body of the arrogant (lion) is inedible and that of the humble (goat) attains the status of edible. All who came to this world have to die ultimately.'

Here is Pauri from page:

'Lion catches a goat; As the goat is dying, it begins to laugh. In awe the lion asks, why are you laughing? Humbly the goat says: Our sons are destroyed (castrated). We only eat wild plants and suffer being slayed & skinned alive. Those who cut our throats and eat our flesh, what will be their plight? Proud and arrogant their bodies are a waste; inedible and fruitless. All who come to the world will eventually die.'

I am mistaken. It seems you have used a different translation from Dr Jodh Singh.

Reply by HS

• • Reply I don't understand what you mean? The full translation is there. Please explain why you say "Can We Have The Entire Pauri?" Which part do you say is missing? I have checked the beginning of each of the 7 lines and they all appear there for the Gurmukhi and English Hari Singh 18:33, 23 August 2006 (CDT)

All other are non-issues

A Shabad To Include

An interesting shabad to include in this:

Page 143 of the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji

mehlaa 1. First Mehl:

vaykh je mithaa kati-aa kat kut baDhaa paa-ay. Look, and see how the sugar-cane is cut down. After cutting away its branches, its feet are bound together into bundles,

khundhaa andar rakh kai dayn so mal sajaa-ay. and then, it is placed between the wooden rollers and crushed.

ras kas tatar paa-ee-ai tapai tai villaa-ay. What punishment is inflicted upon it! Its juice is extracted and placed in the cauldron; as it is heated, it groans and cries out.

bhee so fog samaalee-ai dichai ag jaalaa-ay. And then, the crushed cane is collected and burnt in the fire below.

naanak mithai patree-ai vaykhhu lokaa aa-ay. ||2|| Nanak: come, people, and see how the sweet sugar-cane is treated! ||2||

On one level it is metaphorical, but on another level it shows how the Guru's saw life in everything around them.