Talk:Guru Granth Sahib on meat

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Each tuk addresses the issue

Bhai sahib ji,

Shabad (1)

  • HS: Each tuk on this page addresses this issue either directly or indirectly; what one should try and eat; the preferred diet of a Gursikh; Is killing others to fill ones stomach deemed right by Gurmat?; and how one should live to attain a high karmic status. These are all issues that the Guru addresses directly and sometimes indirectly to the Sikh to listens to the Guru.
    It is up to us to understand and interpret the exact meaning but the translation certainly deals with the issue. In shabad (1) you say this is about "haq halal di kamai" - that is the meaning that you gain from these tuks but to me the words "they kill and eat the forbidden carcasses of meat" give a clear message. The translation is good and goes to the heart of the issue.
    • Lucky: Veer ji read the whole bani then comment. if you think Gurus are addressing to it then read these lines, Gurus have information for vegetarians and non vegetarians and other ctaegories:
      ਕਿਆ ਮੇਵਾ ਕਿਆ ਘਿਉ ਗ੝ੜ੝ ਮਿਠਾ ਕਿਆ ਮੈਦਾ ਕਿਆ ਮਾਸ੝ ॥ ਕਿਆ ਕਪੜ੝ ਕਿਆ ਸੇਜ ਸ੝ਖਾਲੀ ਕੀਜਹਿ ਭੋਗ ਬਿਲਾਸ ॥ ਕਿਆ ਲਸਕਰ ਕਿਆ ਨੇਬ ਖਵਾਸੀ ਆਵੈ ਮਹਲੀ ਵਾਸ੝ ॥ ਨਾਨਕ ਸਚੇ ਨਾਮ ਵਿਣ੝ ਸਭੇ ਟੋਲ ਵਿਣਾਸ੝ ॥੨॥ whatever you eat sir it keeps no significance. Plants also have life why you kill them? same gurus write these lines ਇਕਿ ਮਾਸਹਾਰੀ ਇਕਿ ਤ੝ਰਿਣ੝ ਖਾਹਿ ॥ਇਕਨਾ ਛਤੀਹ ਅੰਮ੝ਰਿਤ ਪਾਹਿ ॥ ਇਕਿ ਮਿਟੀਆ ਮਹਿ ਮਿਟੀਆ ਖਾਹਿ ॥ ਇਕਿ ਪਉਣ ਸ੝ਮਾਰੀ ਪਉਣ ਸ੝ਮਾਰਿ ॥ ਇਕਿ ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰੀ ਨਾਮ ਆਧਾਰਿ ॥ ਜੀਵੈ ਦਾਤਾ ਮਰੈ ਨ ਕੋਇ ॥ ਨਾਨਕ ਮ੝ਠੇ ਜਾਹਿ ਨਾਹੀ ਮਨਿ ਸੋਇ ॥੨॥...read it ik masahari ik trin khaye.....again same message. Brahmins have this philosphy and he use to fight so Nanak gave updesh to Brahmin and added one more line ਗੈਂਡਾ ਮਾਰਿ ਹੋਮ ਜਗ ਕੀਝ ਦੇਵਤਿਆ ਕੀ ਬਾਣੇ ॥ਮਾਸ੝ ਛੋਡਿ ਬੈਸਿ ਨਕ੝ ਪਕੜਹਿ ਰਾਤੀ ਮਾਣਸ ਖਾਣੇ ॥ <<now tell me which Maas is this written? you can read further ਅੰਧਾ ਸੋਇ ਜਿ ਅੰਧ੝ ਕਮਾਵੈ ਤਿਸ੝ ਰਿਦੈ ਸਿ ਲੋਚਨ ਨਾਹੀ ॥ ਮਾਤ ਪਿਤਾ ਕੀ ਰਕਤ੝ ਨਿਪੰਨੇ ਮਛੀ ਮਾਸ੝ ਨ ਖਾਂਹੀ ॥// You can't categorize Sikhi accordig to type of Food ut you can cateogrize hinduism with tamsik satvik rajsik

Shabad (2)

  • HS: Bhai sahib, the Guru Granth Sahib is meant for us Sikhs to learn from; not for pandits or others. It is meant for us to learn from. So although the shabad starts by addressing a Pandit; it is addressing the wrongs done by him in the name to dharm; to kill other living beings is highlighted as 'a-dharm' - against dharm. The rest is for you to interpret but Gurbani tells us that killing other living being cannot be labelled as an act of Dharm - it is an act against dharm. Whether, one chooses to learn from this or not is up to the individual reader.

    In shabad (2) the line "ਜੀਅ ਬਧਹ੝ ਸ੝ ਧਰਮ੝ ਕਰਿ ਥਾਪਹ੝ ਅਧਰਮ੝ ਕਹਹ੝ ਕਤ ਭਾਈ ॥ " which is easy to understand for a normal Punjabi speaker, does not leave a lot to the imagination - ""ਜੀਅ ਬਧਹ੝", You kill living beings "ਸ੝ ਧਰਮ੝ ਕਰਿ ਥਾਪਹ੝" and you call it dharm - "ਅਧਰਮ੝ ਕਹਹ੝ ਕਤ ਭਾਈ" than Brother, what is a-dharm?
    • Lucky: Bhai Sahib, Guru Granth Sahib was basically updesh to hindus,Pundits and some Muslims, the people from these two religions who start following guru became gursikh. Sikhan dee barish nahi hoyi c aasman ton. Killing a JEEV is adharam then tell me why we kill plants??? Gurbani says Andaj Jeraj Setaj Utbhuj are four khani from where jeev get birth, and there are millions khanis from where jeev get birth but Do you know how many Jeev you kill in a Day???

Shabad (3):

  • HS: Bhai sahib, the message here is in simple Punjabi and very direct - "ਕਬੀਰ ਭਾਂਗ ਮਾਛ੝ਲੀ ਸ੝ਰਾ ਪਾਨਿ ਜੋ ਜੋ ਪ੝ਰਾਨੀ ਖਾਂਹਿ ॥". The words "ਭਾਂਗ, ਮਾਛ੝ਲੀ, ਸ੝ਰਾ ਪਾਨਿ" bhang, machlee, sura-paan leave very little to the imagination - bhang is a current word used by nihangs today as well and is a drug to get intoxicated; machlee is fish found in rivers and sarovars, etc. sura-paan is a reference to alcoholic drink and a word that our elders still recognise. Kabir ji has warned us!
    Kind regards, Hari Singhtalk 17:17, 18 February 2010 (UTC)
    • Lucky: Veer ji read the whole line, line continues with ਤੀਰਥ ਬਰਤ ਨੇਮ ਕੀਝ ਤੇ ਸਭੈ ਰਸਾਤਲਿ ਜਾਂਹਿ, now tell me are we related to Teeraths? are we related to Fasts? are we related to Nem? simple these three have no significance for gursikh. If i aggree at your interpretation the you have to agree with e that it means veer ji if i will Take vege food and if i do teerath, barat, nem then i am successful in god's place? if not and if i do Tirath Barat and nem i am rejected?? see does it make sense? The lines are used by some Babas and sant people who are under influence of vaishvanism, but exact meaning resides in gurbani. Kindly Veecharo please.....i am also a Vegetarian like you. i will not misquote bani for my purposes the universal aspect is lying. i will not say that to do Jeev Hathya but when i think about drinking water then my thinking flops, when i eat curd and see under microscope lactobacilus my thinking flops. Plants are also Jeev Fungal is also Jeev....Jeeya ka Aahar Jea. We are killing many many Jeev to nourish ourselves. so should we leave eating, or should we adopt Jainism?

      i do not want to promote NON-VEGETARIANISM but i am saying that Meat keep no significance in spiritual enlightenment. YOGA philosphy even doesn't work in sikhism. Gurbani message is for all, if he keeps hair if he not, wether he is hindu or muslim or sikh. This message is not restricted to guy born in keshdharis or sikh families. Regards, Lucky(¬¬¬¬)

ਕਉਣ੝ ਮਾਸ੝ ਕਉਣ੝ ਸਾਗ੝ ਕਹਾਵੈ ਕਿਸ੝ ਮਹਿ ਪਾਪ ਸਮਾਣੇ ॥ http://www.4shared.com/file/206622274/d4fb43ea/Tamsik_bhojan-Muslim_Faqir_Ban.html

Yet more Gurbani references

HS: Bhai sahib ji,

Yet more Gurbani references; please do not abandoned the ones on the article page? Those are the ones we should be discussing!

Shabad A1: What good is food & what good are clothes

Anyway, the first additional shabad that you quote is: (Guru Granth Sahib, page 142)

ਕਿਆ ਖਾਧੈ ਕਿਆ ਪੈਧੈ ਹੋਇ ॥
Ki▫ĝ kẖĝḝẖai ki▫ĝ paiḝẖai ho▫e.
What good is food, and what good are clothes,

ਜਾ ਮਨਿ ਨਾਹੀ ਸਚਾ ਸੋਇ ॥
Jĝ man nĝhī sacẖĝ so▫e.
if the True Lord does not abide within the mind?

ਕਿਆ ਮੇਵਾ ਕਿਆ ਘਿਉ ਗ੝ੜ੝ ਮਿਠਾ ਕਿਆ ਮੈਦਾ ਕਿਆ ਮਾਸ੝ ॥
Ki▫ĝ mevĝ ki▫ĝ gẖi▫o guṛ miṯẖĝ ki▫ĝ maiḝĝ ki▫ĝ mĝs.
What good are fruits, what good is ghee, sweet jaggery, what good is flour, and what good is meat?

ਕਿਆ ਕਪੜ੝ ਕਿਆ ਸੇਜ ਸ੝ਖਾਲੀ ਕੀਜਹਿ ਭੋਗ ਬਿਲਾਸ ॥
Ki▫ĝ kapaṛ ki▫ĝ sej sukẖĝlī kījėh bẖog bilĝs.
What good are clothes, and what good is a soft bed, to enjoy pleasures and sensual delights?

ਕਿਆ ਲਸਕਰ ਕਿਆ ਨੇਬ ਖਵਾਸੀ ਆਵੈ ਮਹਲੀ ਵਾਸ੝ ॥
Ki▫ĝ laskar ki▫ĝ neb kẖavĝsī ĝvai mahlī vĝs.
What good is an army, and what good are soldiers, servants and mansions to live in?

ਨਾਨਕ ਸਚੇ ਨਾਮ ਵਿਣ੝ ਸਭੇ ਟੋਲ ਵਿਣਾਸ੝ ॥੨॥
Nĝnak sacẖe nĝm viṇ sabẖe tol viṇĝs. ||2||
O Nanak, without the True Name, all this paraphernalia shall disappear. ||2||

Bhai sahib ji, Gurbani is not telling us that all these things are good or bad; for example - should we have soft beds to enjoy pleasures and sensual delights? In a similar way, should we have servants and mansions? No; all Gurbani is saying is that everything good or bad is absolutely useless as it will all disappear from us soon! We should not get tangled up in material things and indulge in what is good food and what are good clothes, etc. Life is short so let us not waste it in these useless things. Without Naam all is wasted.

  • Lucky: A1.1: I am a Vegetarian Guy sir first thing i want to add. Now, Problem is english interpretation, you yourself resolved that MASAHARI or GHASAHARI/////GAREEB or DHANWAAN keeps no significance......GOOD CURD AND DAAL WILL DISAPPEAR AND SO WILL MAAS...so Maas keeps no significance!!!! isn't it. Sachey naam bin Tol Vinas

Shabad A2: Some eat meat, while others eat grass

HS:

The second additional shabad that you quote is:(Guru Granth Sahib, page 144)

ਇਕਿ ਮਾਸਹਾਰੀ ਇਕਿ ਤ੝ਰਿਣ੝ ਖਾਹਿ ॥
Ik mĝshĝrī ik ṯariṇ kẖĝhi.
Some eat meat, while others eat grass.

ਇਕਨਾ ਛਤੀਹ ਅੰਮ੝ਰਿਤ ਪਾਹਿ ॥
Iknĝ cẖẖaṯīh amriṯ pĝhi.
Some have all the thirty-six varieties of delicacies,

ਇਕਿ ਮਿਟੀਆ ਮਹਿ ਮਿਟੀਆ ਖਾਹਿ ॥
Ik mitī▫ĝ mėh mitī▫ĝ kẖĝhi.
while others live in the dirt and eat mud.

ਇਕਿ ਪਉਣ ਸ੝ਮਾਰੀ ਪਉਣ ਸ੝ਮਾਰਿ ॥
Ik pa▫uṇ sumĝrī pa▫uṇ sumĝr.
Some control the breath, and regulate their breathing.

ਇਕਿ ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰੀ ਨਾਮ ਆਧਾਰਿ ॥
Ik nirankĝrī nĝm ĝḝẖĝr.
Some live by the Support of the Naam, the Name of the Formless Lord.

ਜੀਵੈ ਦਾਤਾ ਮਰੈ ਨ ਕੋਇ ॥
Jīvai ḝĝṯĝ marai na ko▫e.
The Great Giver lives; no one dies.

ਨਾਨਕ ਮ੝ਠੇ ਜਾਹਿ ਨਾਹੀ ਮਨਿ ਸੋਇ ॥੨॥
Nĝnak muṯẖe jĝhi nĝhī man so▫e. ||2||
O Nanak, those who do not enshrine the Lord within their minds are deluded. ||2||

Again, Bhai sahib ji, this is a shabad that tells us how God has made all sort of creatures - some eat meat; some veg; some have 36 varieties of food other live in the dirt and eat mud - So where does it say it is OK for man to eat meat? Does man live in dirt and eat mud?

Please do not fall in the trap of saying that this or that is to address the Brahmin or Mullah or ..... The Guru Granth sahib is OUR Guru; it is for our consumption not anyone else's. Did the Guru tell us to pass these shabads to the pandits or brahmins or mullahs; No. Sabh Sikhk-han ko hukam ha Guru maneo Granth - sikhkanko hukam ha - not brahmins ko or mullah-ko, etc.

  • Lucky: A2.1: Problem is the Interpretation of Gurbani in english, Does man live in dirt and eat mud?, then tell me do Creatures enshrine in God's love? Dog enshrine in God's love, lion enshrine in god's love? if yes, then What is proved from here that these things keep no significance(Maas, Jog, Ghaas, delicacies)....if no then same thing.
    If a MASAHARI enshrine lord in mind than he is accepted what if people are GHASAHARI and not enshrine in love with lord? So MASAHARI or GHASAHARI creatures keep no significance!!!food habits keep no significance!
    God never restrict food, it is us who do that, human can easily live on veg but his body is made such he can consume non veg too, if god want to take us veg food only then he could give COW like structure to us. Khaana da laina dena sareer naal hai AATMA naal nahi

Shabad A3: Fools argue about flesh and meat

HS:

  • See full Shabad here
SGGS Page 1289 Full Shabad
ਮਃ ੧ ॥ मः १ ॥ mehlaa 1. First Mehl:

ਮਾਸ੝ ਮਾਸ੝ ਕਰਿ ਮੂਰਖ੝ ਝਗੜੇ ਗਿਆਨ੝ ਧਿਆਨ੝ ਨਹੀ ਜਾਣੈ ॥ ਕਉਣ੝ ਮਾਸ੝ ਕਉਣ੝ ਸਾਗ੝ ਕਹਾਵੈ ਕਿਸ੝ ਮਹਿ ਪਾਪ ਸਮਾਣੇ ॥
ਗੈਂਡਾ ਮਾਰਿ ਹੋਮ ਜਗ ਕੀਝ ਦੇਵਤਿਆ ਕੀ ਬਾਣੇ ॥ ਮਾਸ੝ ਛੋਡਿ ਬੈਸਿ ਨਕ੝ ਪਕੜਹਿ ਰਾਤੀ ਮਾਣਸ ਖਾਣੇ ॥
ਫੜ੝ ਕਰਿ ਲੋਕਾਂ ਨੋ ਦਿਖਲਾਵਹਿ ਗਿਆਨ੝ ਧਿਆਨ੝ ਨਹੀ ਸੂਝੈ ॥ ਨਾਨਕ ਅੰਧੇ ਸਿਉ ਕਿਆ ਕਹੀਝ ਕਹੈ ਨ ਕਹਿਆ ਬੂਝੈ ॥

maas maas kar moorakh jhagrhay gi-aan Dhi-aan nahee jaanai. ka-un maas ka-un saag kahaavai kis meh paap samaanay.
gaiNdaa maar hom jag kee-ay dayviti-aa kee baanay. maas chhod bais nak pakrheh raatee maanas khaanay.
farh kar lokaaN no dikhlaavahi gi-aan Dhi-aan nahee soojhai. naanak anDhay si-o ki-aa kahee-ai kahai na kahi-aa boojhai.

The fools argue about flesh and meat, but they know nothing about meditation and spiritual wisdom. What is called meat, and what is called green vegetables? What leads to sin? It was the habit of the gods to kill the rhinoceros, and make a feast of the burnt offering. Those who renounce meat, and hold their noses when sitting near it, devour men at night. They practice hypocrisy, and make a show before other people, but they do not understand anything about meditation or spiritual wisdom. O Nanak, what can be said to the blind people? They cannot answer, or even understand what is said.

Line 1: Bhai sahib ji, Here the Guru is telling us that: Only fools argue about flesh and meat (NOTE: it does not say veg and meat) but they know nothing about Gian and Dian - this tells us the most important aspect of the shabad - Without any gian or dian one should not argue about anything - First obtain Gian and Dian and then when you have some enlightenment you can make judgements.

  • Lucky: A3.1: Now tell me, suppose i am NON VEG, you are VEG...non VEG will not have problem with VEg consumers but VEG people have problem with NON VEG...they will say non vegies not to take food and which result to JHAGDA: ਮਾਸ੝ ਮਾਸ੝ ਕਰਿ ਮੂਰਖ੝ ਝਗੜੇ ਗਿਆਨ੝ ਧਿਆਨ੝ ਨਹੀ ਜਾਣੈ ॥ so both parties fight and the aim of GUru is on pundit who preach such things.

Line 2: Then Guru asks us: What is meat what is sag - green veg? What leads to sin?

  • Lucky: A3.2: then tell me?? What is sin question of GURBANI!!!!! This is discourse wih pundit who says people not to consume MEat. but that pundits were away from Gyan/Dhyan....

Line 3: Here the Guru informs us that in olden times - It was the habit of the gods to kill the rhinoceros, and make a feast of the burnt offering.

  • Lucky: A3.3:. Yes against Bali Prikriya

Line 4: Then the Guru goes on to tells us: Those who renounce meat, and hold their noses when sitting near it, devour men at night. So there are people who show repulsion at the mention of eating meat but "in the night" or behind peoples backs they "devour men" they eat men!

  • Lucky: A3.4: Same thing explained above

Then the Guru goes on to tell us how these people are hypocritical and make a show without any spiritual understanding at all; these are blind people with no understanding.

Further in this long shabad, the Guru tells us: ਬਾਹਰ ਕਾ ਮਾਸ੝ ਮੰਦਾ ਸ੝ਆਮੀ ਘਰ ਕਾ ਮਾਸ੝ ਚੰਗੇਰਾ ॥
baahar kaa maas mandhaa suaamee ghar kaa maas changaeraa ||
O master, you believe that flesh on the outside is bad, but the flesh of those in your own home is good.
The outside flesh is bad but flesh of ones in own home is good - Is this talking about eating? So should we eat this "good flesh"? What do you understand from this line - Can't you see what the Guru is explaining?

The final line of the shabad tells us: ਝਤੇ ਰਸ ਛੋਡਿ ਹੋਵੈ ਸੰਨਿਆਸੀ ਨਾਨਕ੝ ਕਹੈ ਵਿਚਾਰਾ ॥੨॥
eaethae ras shhodd hovai sanniaasee naanak kehai vichaaraa ||2||
Forsaking these delicacies, one becomes a true Sannyaasee, a detached hermit. Nanak reflects and speaks. ||2||

Only by giving up these delicacies does one becomes a true sannyaasee! so one has to give up these treats in life to become truly spiritual!

  • Lucky: A3.5: read whole salok please : ਅੰਧਾ ਸੋਇ ਜਿ ਅੰਧ੝ ਕਮਾਵੈ ਤਿਸ੝ ਰਿਦੈ ਸਿ ਲੋਚਨ ਨਾਹੀ ॥((They alone are blind, who act blindly. They have no eyes in their hearts.)), ਮਾਤ ਪਿਤਾ ਕੀ ਰਕਤ੝ ਨਿਪੰਨੇ ਮਛੀ ਮਾਸ੝ ਨ ਖਾਂਹੀ ॥ ((They are produced from the blood of their mothers and fathers, but they do not eat fish or meat. ))
    What i want to mention that MEAT HAVE NO SIGNIFICANCE IN GURBANI!!!!!!

Shabad A4: Guru Granth Sahib updesh to hindus, Pundits and Muslims

Bhai sahib ji: When did Guru Gobind Singh or any other Guru say to Hindus or Pundits or Mullah - read Gurbani; take holy Granth as your Guru? Only the Sikhs were told to accept the holy Granth as Guru. Guru Tegh Bahadar did not say to the Kashmiri Pandits, I will save you but you must take the Granth as your Guru?

  • Lucky: A4.1: Now sir Ji, If you will say the granth is not updesh to PUNDITS AND MUSLIMS then edit the granth and remove maximum lines.... (Sun Pandey, Bol Pandey), articles like Guru Granth Sahib's guidance for Muslims....change it to Guru Granth Sahib guidance to Sikhs!!! Guru Granth Sahib have guidance for all, and who follow him is a SIKH. wasn't Sayi miyan meer a Sikh??? Wasn't peer buddhu shah a sikh?? wasn't jaani shah a sikh?? wasn't todar mall a sikh (as he was not Todar Singh)?? they all were sikhs!!!

Shabad A5: Killing a plant?

Bhai sahib ji,

There are very good reasons why when a plant is destroyed the word "kill" is not used; similarly when a human is killed we call it "murder"; while we do not use the word 'murder' when an animal is killed.

When we breath-in many millions of living organisms are killed but no one stops breathing to save the millions of bacteria; in the Jain religion some wear a cloth over their nose & mouth to stop the death of these bacteria. Are they murdering the bacteria?

  • Lucky: A5.1: Lavo Sir ji you are exposing whole topic

There is a big different in "killing" a bacteria, a germ, a plant, an animal and a man. Bhai sahib ji, if you can't see that then I think we should not carry on with this dialogue! Why do we not kill other humans to eat like the pygmies do? Humans probably make a good balanced diet and it would also solve the population problem.

  • Lucky: A5.2: Guru Granth Sahib haven't promoted meat eating, but meat eating have no significance.

Why the big difference between a man and a goat? Does a goat not have a brain like a man; does it not respond to pain like a man? When you kill a baby goat does the mother not try and protect it? Why does it do this? Does it have feelings? So why the difference in attitude between how we treat a man and a goat?

  • Lucky: A5.3: God is situated in ANDAJ, JERAJ, SETAJ, UTBHUJ....What you kill what you not tell me!!!!

If I cut a goat's throat, I hear its cries of pain; I know it is suffering pain. I don't need a electronic gadget to understand that; God has given me enough sense to see that the goat has feelings and that it is suffering.

  • Lucky: A5.4: you cannot feel pain of plants sir, i was talking with dad that a radish was growing and before me farmer plucks it, it wants to grow more want to live, it have life with earth and we killed Radish, my dad said @@hor khana chadd [email protected]@,,,,,,Sir i can feel sufferings of Plants too.

Bhai sahib ji, does the cabbage cry out when you cut it? Does it have tears in its eyes? Does the cabbages mother try to save the baby cabbage when you go to cut it? Can you sense any feelings of pain in the cabbage? If you can then you should think about not "killing" the cabbage.

  • Lucky: A5.5: sir i never kill Goat or Chicken with my hand when i eat it!!!! and i don't pluck radish and carrots from fields. So i can't feel both and when i see situation of both then same feeling exists.......should i Stop eating??
    Take a Seed and take similar seed, keep one seed in Bhanda and boil it. Now put both seeds into earth, which one will grow?

What about bacteria? As you mention, the Guru tells us that we kill billions of them everyday. Should we stop this as well? Did the Guru ask us to stop breathing? No. The Guru only tell us to not kill to eat meat - no mention here of bacteria or of veg.

  • Lucky: A5.6: Where guru tell that??

Shabad A6: Kabeer ji da shabad

ਕਬੀਰ ਭਾਂਗ ਮਾਛ੝ਲੀ ਸ੝ਰਾ ਪਾਨਿ ਜੋ ਜੋ ਪ੝ਰਾਨੀ ਖਾਂਹਿ ॥ ਤੀਰਥ ਬਰਤ ਨੇਮ ਕੀਝ ਤੇ ਸਭੈ ਰਸਾਤਲਿ ਜਾਂਹਿ ॥੨੩੩॥
Kabeer, those mortals who consume marijuana, fish and wine - no matter what pilgrimages, fasts and rituals they follow, they will all go to hell.

Bhai sahib ji: This shabad says: "If you consume marijuana, fish or wine (alcohol); then it doesn't matter what rituals or pilgrimages or fast or anything else that you may do - you will go to hell. It is as simple as that. The words "ਨੇਮ ਕੀਝ" "Nem keeya" (see ਨੇਮ s  means "ਨਿਯਮ, ਧਾਰਮਕ ਰਹਿਤ" or "doing any religious ritual or deed" and covers many things including Nitnem, wearing kakkar, daily ishnaan, doing kirtan, etc. Bhai sahib, this makes perfect sense - this is a tuk in simple punjabi; the English translations are by renowned scholars who have been commended by the panth.

  • Lucky: A6.1: ok i can reply you on these, Bhang/Sharab....both eats up MIND, GUrus said reject those things jo paramatma ton door kardi hai....which takes you away from god......second thing Fish, fish encourage sexual something like that you know better. kaam vaashna also takes away from god. still BHANG and SHARAB is rejected at various places. i will reply on nem later, i have to clear NEM word of that time and today.

Sikhs do to teeraths; they go to Harmander sahib, Hemkunt sahib, Anandpur sahib, etc. Remember that Gurbani is universal and so it addresses all the people in the world - so all things that one may do are addressed. But what is important is that whatever you do, if you consume those three nasties, then you will go to hell.

  • Lucky: A6.2: Sir Sikhs doo Teeraths then they are bevakoof as gurbani says there is NO SIGNIFICANCE OF TIRATHS

Bhai sahib ji, Guru has not given the reverse as true. If you eat good things that does not mean you will go to heaven! Guru does not say that.

  • Lucky: A6.3: Thats what i am saying NO SIGNIFICANCE....Khaan da AATMA naal koi SAMBANDH nahi, Shareer MAAYA hai, Khana MAAYA hai...Maaya ne Maaya vich jana hai Kaaya vich nahi??

Bhai sahib, I have not got these meanings from any Sant or Deera. This is from my own reading of Gurbani and research of books by other educated Sikhs; you can read the meanings of the words in Punjabi at Sri Granth - It tells you what the words mean; the message is clear. Bhai sahib, I am pleased that you too are a vegetarian but I am quoting the exact translation by many scholars - I have checked four copies of the English translation and they all more or less say the same thing; they can't all be wrong!

  • Lucky: A6.4: I NEED INTERPRETATIONS OF GURMUKHS not SCHOLARS (if you love to read scholars read Bhai Sahib SIngh Scholar on Bhang machuli sura paan what he interpreted)

Bhai sahib, the message of Gurbani is about compassion; so when we stop killing animals, it should be because of compassion not any other reason like the hypocrisy of the Pandits; If you feel compassion for plants then please don't eat them. But for me, plants do not have a nervous system; I cannot see them crying and so I do not think they are suffering when we "kill" them. It is like ones hair; it is alive but when you cut the hair there is no feeling. Similarly, when we cut plants they do not show pain.

  • Lucky: A6.5: Rabb thode muhre maari janda duniya nu, Tusi ohnu Compassionate kehnde ho, our COMPASSIONATE keeps no SIGNIFICANCE!!!!!GYAN DHYAN nahi jane!!!!! We should have COMPASSIONATE FOR our MAnna and CHITT

Further, Bhai sahib, many veg that we eat are actually the seeds or fruits of the plant; the plant deliberately makes the fruit so that animals may eat them to propagate the plant somewhere else. For example, the plant makes a bright red tomato with good taste so that an animal eats it and in the process the seed is transferred somewhere else so that it can grow! Also other plants that we eat are seeds which are meant to be taken by animals for dispersal - To attract the animals and birds and encourage them to act as seed carriers, plants often surround their seeds with a brightly-coloured and sweet-tasting pulp - Read: http://theseedsite.co.uk/sdanimal.html and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seed_dispersal#Dispersal_by_animals for more details about this.

  • Lucky: A6.6: A Single Plant have life when you pluck it you kill it!!!! Their SEEDS have life when you boil it you kill it.

Also cereals like wheat and barley are grasses that used to grow naturally and were eaten by animals and helped the dispersal of the crops to newer regions. Due to our dependency on these crops, their survival is assured! So the plants has a natural mechanism for survival through a relationship to animals and mankind.

Bhai sahib, if you do not agree with the article, then you must deal with each of the shabads on that page; please do not bring new shabads to try and prove your view point as this just makes the whole thing get out of focus. Tell us about your opinion on what the Guru is saying in the shabads that appear on the article page; that way we can try and see where the confusion may be from either side.

Kind regards, Hari Singhtalk 06:08, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

  • Lucky: A6.7: Gurus said there is no significance of Food.

Please use a new section for your reply

HS: Bhai sahib ji,

Many thanks for your detailed reply. To make it easy for others to follow the argument, please use a new section for your reply as otherwise it becomes very difficult to follow the logic; I have added colour and numbering to make it easier. I am also numbering my entries so that you can use the same paragraph numbers:

Point B1

You have repeatedly written (at A1.1, A3.5, A5.2 and A6.7) that "Gurus said there is no significance of Food." - Where is this written? please quote a few tuks?

Please Veer ji, also explain why Bhai Gurdas disagrees with you and say that what you eat and how you get it has significance to the person; Bhai Gurdas ji has said the opposite thing to what you are saying! So I would say that, with utmost respect, Veer ji your statement cannot be right. Bhai Gurdas ji makes it very clear in the line: "ਮਾਸ੝ ਖਾਨਿ ਗਲ ਵਢਿ ਕੈ ਹਾਲ੝ ਤਿਨਾੜਾ ਕਉਣ੝ ਹੋਵਸੀ॥" - "Those who cut our throats and eat our flesh, what will be their plight?" please read the full shabad here. It is clear that how we obtain our food has a spiritual significance on our plight. That is what the bhai sahib's shabad say. Please do not refer me to the rest of the shabad as I have read it already. Always quote the line and explain what it means to you so that we can all follow the logic even if we do not accept it. It is clear from this Vaar that Bhai Gurdas ji is saying via the goat that when we cut the throat of the poor goat, that only eats rough grass, and eat its body parts, this act will have an impact on our plight.

Also veer ji, see the next vaar 37 pauri 21 where Bhai Gurdas ji says "What will be the plight of those who cutting the throat with a knife eat the flesh of animals?" - please refer to the article page for the full shabad.

  • Lucky: Veer Ji, First of all i am sorry if i said anything sacastic in previous sayings as my friend said. So on topic, Veer Ji you said ""Sab Sikhan ko Hukam hai Guru Maneyo Granth"", so better we take examples from Guru Granth Sahib Ji, Nanak to Patshahi 10 keep significance, Not a Single Shabad of Bhai Gurdas is included in Adi granth and Dasam granth. Rehat should be from Granths wrote by Gurus not an Bhai Gurdas Ji. Not all hymns of Bijak(Bhagat Kabir) are included in Gur Granth Ji, it means those are not required for sikhs. We Should follow PATSHAHI 1 to PATSHAHI 10, Bhagat/bhatt Banis, contained in Gur Granth. Kindly give me lines of Gur Granth Sahib.

Point B2

Lucky said: A2.1: Problem is the Interpretation of Gurbani in english, Does man live in dirt and eat mud?, then tell me do Creatures enshrine in God's love? Dog enshrine in God's love, lion enshrine in god's love? if yes, then What is proved from here that these things keep no significance(Maas, Jog, Ghaas, delicacies)....if no then same thing. If a MASAHARI enshrine lord in mind than he is accepted what if people are GHASAHARI and not enshrine in love with lord? So MASAHARI or GHASAHARI creatures keep no significance!!!food habits keep no significance! God never restrict food, it is us who do that, human can easily live on veg but his body is made such he can consume non veg too, if god want to take us veg food only then he could give COW like structure to us. Khaana da laina dena sareer naal hai AATMA naal nahi

Reply by HS: Yes, Veer ji, You ask does Dog, Lion, etc enshrine in God'd love? Yes, Veer ji, All creatures and things meditate on the Lord; I will let Gurbani speak here - "All beings and creatures meditate on Your Name." (SGGS p 652), "All beings and creatures meditate on You, Lord. You hold the earth in Your Hands" (SGGS p 84); "Mortals, forests, blades of grass, animals and birds all meditate on You..... Millions of gods and goddesses of wealth serve Him in so many ways ..... The stars, the moon and the sun meditate on Him; the earth and the sky sing to Him. " (SGGS p 455), "You created all beings and creatures. Each and every heart meditates on You. " (SGGS p 748) and finally "The forests and fields, and all the three worlds meditate on You, O Lord; this is the way they pass their days and nights forever." (SGGS p 1420) Veer ji, you asked the question and here is the answer. Now you decide if there is any significance!

Veer ji, the Guru tells us "The elephant eats a hundred pounds of ghee and molasses, and five hundred pounds of corn. He belches and grunts and scatters dust, and when the breath leaves his body, he regrets it. The blind and arrogant die insane. Submitting to the Lord, one become pleasing to Him. The sparrow eats only half a grain, then it flies through the sky and chirps. The good sparrow is pleasing to her Lord and Master, if she chirps the Name of the Lord." (SGGS p 1286) We need to live in a controlled way keeping a restrain on excesses; that way we are pleasing to our Lord. Please read the whole shabad at this link.

  • Lucky: Veer Ji, We need to live in a controlled way keeping a restrain on excesses; that way we are pleasing to our Lord, that is the point veer Ji, you gave conclusion. Moreover you also included Mortals, forests, blades of grass, animals and birds all meditate on You...... This included Forests/Grass = Plants, who take God's name, what does it mean? They also have feeling!!! right? They are Jeev sir. we are killing and plucking them. They also take God's name. Rite?

Point B3.1

B3.1: Lucky said: A3.1: Now tell me, suppose i am NON VEG, you are VEG...non VEG will not have problem with VEg consumers but VEG people have problem with NON VEG...they will say non vegies not to take food and which result to JHAGDA: ਮਾਸ੝ ਮਾਸ੝ ਕਰਿ ਮੂਰਖ੝ ਝਗੜੇ ਗਿਆਨ੝ ਧਿਆਨ੝ ਨਹੀ ਜਾਣੈ ॥ so both parties fight and the aim of GUru is on pundit who preach such things.

Reply by HS: Veer ji, there is no fight; only a desire to understand the word of the Guru and disperse it as such.

Point B3.2

B3.2: Lucky said:A3.2: then tell me?? What is sin question of GURBANI!!!!! This is discourse wih pundit who says people not to consume MEat. but that pundits were away from Gyan/Dhyan....

Reply: Veer ji, this is no discourse with pandits - It is a message for us to learn from. If you carefully continue reading the shabad, eventually the Guru says: "ਅੰਧਾ ਸੋਇ ਜਿ ਅੰਧ੝ ਕਮਾਵੈ ਤਿਸ੝ ਰਿਦੈ ਸਿ ਲੋਚਨ ਨਾਹੀ ॥ They alone are blind, who act blindly. They have no eyes in their hearts." (SGGS p 1289) Gurbani clearly is telling us that if you do not "have eyes in your heart" or in other words you cannot see the pain or suffering in others "with your heart" or that you do not have compassion for others, then you are spiritually blind. So, people who do not practise compassion will act sinfully or be "spiritually blind". Kabir ji provides further clarification "ਕਬੀਰ ਜੀਅ ਜ੝ ਮਾਰਹਿ ਜੋਰ੝ ਕਰਿ ਕਹਤੇ ਹਹਿ ਜ੝ ਹਲਾਲ੝ ॥ ਦਫਤਰ੝ ਦਈ ਜਬ ਕਾਢਿ ਹੈ ਹੋਇਗਾ ਕਉਨ੝ ਹਵਾਲ੝ ॥੧੯੯॥ Kabeer, they oppress living beings and kill them, and call it proper. When the Lord calls for their account, what will their condition be? (199)" (SGGS p 1375). Those people who oppress others and kill them will be held accountable!

    • Sir ji This is Discourse with PUNDIT: ਗਿਆਨ੝ ਧਿਆਨ੝ ਕਛ੝ ਸੂਝੈ ਨਾਹੀ ਚਤ੝ਰ੝ ਕਹਾਵੈ ਪਾਂਡੇ॥. Who is Pandey? The Internal eyes are not made to see compassion but to see the god. Gyan da Chanana hunda hai eh andar dia akhan khuldiya hann, Bahr diya akhan duniya nu dekhdiyan ne, andar diyan akhan gyan nu dekhdiya ne.

      Meaning of Kabir Ji lines, from same website from where you copied: ਹੇ ਕਬੀਰ! ਜੋ ਲੋਕ ਧੱਕਾ ਕਰ ਕੇ (ਗਾਂ ਆਦਿਕ) ਜੀਵਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਮਾਰਦੇ ਹਨ; ਪਰ ਆਖਦੇ ਇਹ ਹਨ ਕਿ (ਇਹ ਜ਼ਬਹ ਕੀਤਾ ਹੋਇਆ ਮਾਸ) ਖ਼੝ਦਾ ਦੇ ਨਾਮ ਤੇ ਕ੝ਰਬਾਨੀ ਦੇ ਲਾਇਕ ਹੋ ਗਿਆ ਹੈ, ਜਦੋਂ ਸਭ ਜੀਵਾਂ ਨਾਲ ਪਿਆਰ ਕਰਨ ਵਾਲਾ ਖ਼੝ਦਾ (ਇਹਨਾਂ ਲੋਕਾਂ ਪਾਸੋਂ-ਅਮਲਾਂ ਦਾ ਲੇਖਾ ਮੰਗੇਗਾ, ਤਾਂ ਇਹਨਾਂ ਦਾ ਕੀਹ ਹਾਲ ਹੋਵੇਗਾ? (ਭਾਵ, ਕ੝ਰਬਾਨੀ ਦਿੱਤਿਆਂ ਗ੝ਨਾਹ ਬਖ਼ਸ਼ੇ ਨਹੀਂ ਜਾਂਦੇ)।੧੯੯।

Point B3.5

B3.5: Lucky said:A3.5: read whole salok please : ਅੰਧਾ ਸੋਇ ਜਿ ਅੰਧ੝ ਕਮਾਵੈ ਤਿਸ੝ ਰਿਦੈ ਸਿ ਲੋਚਨ ਨਾਹੀ ॥((They alone are blind, who act blindly. They have no eyes in their hearts.)), ਮਾਤ ਪਿਤਾ ਕੀ ਰਕਤ੝ ਨਿਪੰਨੇ ਮਛੀ ਮਾਸ੝ ਨ ਖਾਂਹੀ ॥ ((They are produced from the blood of their mothers and fathers, but they do not eat fish or meat. )) What i want to mention that MEAT HAVE NO SIGNIFICANCE IN GURBANI!!!!!!

Reply: (ਜੇ ਕਹੋ ਅੰਨ੝ਹਾ ਕੌਣ ਹੈ ਤਾਂ) ਅੰਨ੝ਹਾ ਉਹ ਹੈ ਜੋ ਅੰਨਿ੝ਹਆਂ ਵਾਲਾ ਕੰਮ ਕਰਦਾ ਹੈ, ਜਿਸ ਦੇ ਦਿਲ ਵਿਚ ਉਹ ਅੱਖਾਂ ਨਹੀਂ ਹਨ (ਭਾਵ, ਜੋ ਸਮਝ ਤੋਂ ਸੱਖਣਾ ਹੈ), (ਨਹੀਂ ਤਾਂ ਸੋਚਣ ਵਾਲੀ ਗੱਲ ਹੈ ਕਿ ਆਪ ਭੀ ਤਾਂ) ਮਾਂ ਤੇ ਪਿਉ ਦੀ ਰੱਤ ਤੋਂ ਹੀ ਹੋਝ ਹਨ ਤੇ ਮੱਛੀ (ਆਦਿਕ) ਦੇ ਮਾਸ ਤੋਂ ਪਰਹੇਜ਼ ਕਰਦੇ ਹਨ (ਭਾਵ, ਮਾਸ ਤੋਂ ਹੀ ਪੈਦਾ ਹੋ ਕੇ ਮਾਸ ਤੋਂ ਪਰਹੇਜ਼ ਕਰਨ ਦਾ ਕੀਹ ਭਾਵ? ਪਹਿਲਾਂ ਭੀ ਤਾਂ ਮਾਂ ਪਿਉ ਦੇ ਮਾਸ ਤੋਂ ਹੀ ਸਰੀਰ ਪਲਿਆ ਹੈ)।

Point B4

Lucky said:A4.1: Now sir Ji, If you will say the granth is not updesh to PUNDITS AND MUSLIMS then edit the granth and remove maximum lines.... (Sun Pandey, Bol Pandey), articles like Guru Granth Sahib's guidance for Muslims....change it to Guru Granth Sahib guidance to Sikhs!!! Guru Granth Sahib have guidance for all, and who follow him is a SIKH. wasn't Sayi miyan meer a Sikh??? Wasn't peer buddhu shah a sikh?? wasn't jaani shah a sikh?? wasn't todar mall a sikh (as he was not Todar Singh)?? they all were sikhs!!!

Reply by HS: Veer ji, Guru's hukam is - this holy Granth is Guru of Sikhs. Everything in it provides us with guidance. There is no instruction left by the Gurus to others - if there is please let me know where it? When did the Gurus say that Muslims or Hindus should accept this as their Guru or as anything else? In the ardas we say - "sab sikhkan ko hukam ha --- Guru maneo Granth" where do we say that Muslims and Hindus also have such instruction?

  • Lucky: When the banis were recorded it was messages for Pundits, qazis and other bhatke people. We have to understand that first, before any interpretation. Sikh have to extract what is there guru is denying what is there which have no significance which is significane. many muslim improved their way of life and vision when contact with srigranth, many non sikhs are improving, and for me they are too sikhs.

Point B5.1

Lucky said:A5.3: God is situated in ANDAJ, JERAJ, SETAJ, UTBHUJ....What you kill what you not tell me!!!!

Reply by HS: Yes, Veer ji. God is in everything; but what I am saying is related to compassion and pain. If you think that your breathing causes pain to the bacteria then find another way to breathe otherwise carry on in the normal way.

  • Lucky: Same thing i want to say, Sir ji. What we feel we react and what we do not feel we never react. yesterday i went to Sabzi Mandi and i saw Carcasses of Radish, Potato, Carrot etc. still i am taking. Jeev vich Atma hundi hai and you said yourself, Forests and plants also recite their name, if they are. Social behavior of plant is their, rose have spines, mimosa pudica is fearful plant it leaves close as we touch.

Point B5.2

Lucky said:A5.4: you cannot feel pain of plants sir, i was talking with dad that a radish was growing and before me farmer plucks it, it wants to grow more want to live, it have life with earth and we killed Radish, my dad said @@hor khana chadd [email protected]@,,,,,,Sir i can feel sufferings of Plants too.

Reply by HS: No, Veer ji. I cannot feel or see any pain in the plant when I remove the tomato. Veer ji, I am not a farmer but I think if you leave the radish in the ground, it will die in a few weeks anyway once the seeds have sprouted. This is a root and the seeds allow the plant to propagate; we play our part in maintaining the plant species. Does you hair feel pain when you cut it? It is alive but it does not have a nerve in it.

  • Lucky: No Veer ji hair doesn't pain me. It is feeling rite you said you have feeling for animals and i said i have feelings for plants too. i never say to kill animal. and i am not promoting NONVEGIE food what i am saying is, Food have no relation with our spiriual life.

Point B5.3

Lucky said:A5.5: sir i never kill Goat or Chicken with my hand when i eat it!!!! and i don't pluck radish and carrots from fields. So i can't feel both and when i see situation of both then same feeling exists.......should i Stop eating?? Take a Seed and take similar seed, keep one seed in Bhanda and boil it. Now put both seeds into earth, which one will grow?

Reply by HS: Veer ji, If you did eat meat; it does not matter who kills it, you play a part in its killing by consuming it. Plants do not have nerves and as such cannot feel pain as we do or as animals do. You do not need to be a rocket scientist to see and understand that. They do not have a brain; where do they feel pain? in the roots, leaves or stem? Similarly, seeds do not have a brain. Please explain how plants can feel pain and how they suffer when we consume vegetables. The situation between meat and vegetables is completely difference - Look with the eyes in your heart as Gurbani asks?

  • Lucky: Veer ji,if No brain then eat it, cut it. Eh ki insaaf hai JEEV naal who even recite god's name? As you mentioned line above, tell me How could plant Recite God's name? Moreover many scientists claims plants also feel pain: Link 1, Link 2, Link 3, Link 4

Point B6.1

Lucky said: A6.4: I NEED INTERPRETATIONS OF GURMUKHS not SCHOLARS (if you love to read scholars read Bhai Sahib SIngh Scholar on Bhang machuli sura paan what he interpreted)

Reply by HS: Veer ji, scholars can also be very good Gurmukhs. Please show mean a different meaning in these tuks. To me they appear very clear. Tell me what Bhai Sahib Singh says? How can he dodge Gurbani! The message is very precise and direct.

  • Lucky: Veer Ji Gurmukhs always hae same interpretations. if scholars are gurmukh then we would not be fighting.

Point B6.2

Lucky said: A6.6: A Single Plant have life when you pluck it you kill it!!!! Their SEEDS have life when you boil it you kill it.

Reply by HS: Veer ji, we are talking about pain and suffering NOT about life; we are talking about compassion - eyes in you heart! How do you feel when you kill another animal? Can you see any suffering and pain? If not then carry on. If you do then let Gurbani guide you. "ਨਿਰਦਇਆ ਨਹੀ ਜੋਤਿ ਉਜਾਲਾ ॥ You have no compassion; the Lord's Light does not shine in you. ਬੂਡਤ ਬੂਡੇ ਸਰਬ ਜੰਜਾਲਾ ॥੪॥ You are drowned, drowned in worldly entanglements.(4)" (SGGS p 903) Kind regards, Hari Singhtalk 03:56, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

  • Lucky: Veer Ji, This is Last reply of Mine on topic. I Haven't found anything AGAINST or FAVOUR of NON VEGETARIANISM in GURU Granth ji. The Vichar ends up to Kind and Compassion, and i have same compassion for seed too and egg too. i do not take egg as it's my personal choice...Control, how much can i control my tounge in both cases veg and non veg, and i feel i take veg food and can be a good sikh but when i was taking non veg food then i was not bad sikh. Food is Maya to keep our body stable we take food(of any kind), Naam is not Maya, Naam is our eternal food. Naam contains DEEN DAYAL for god(Compassion and kind) and Naam includes KAAL and MAHAKAAL for god(Unkind acc. to us). What happened in Haiti was naturan disaster and UNKIND act of God. What is Kind and What is Unkind? The most Unkind act is that a Person misguides someone from spiritual way of life. The person who takes away someone from that Pari Puran Parmatma. These Rituals veg non veg etc etc will remain on earth after my death too as this body will go in fire after my death but this Atma (MAYA to NIRLEP) will not. Eat Less!!!! Sleep LESS!!!! Take Balanced diet!!!! May God bless all.</font(Lucky 11:51, 23 February 2010 (UTC))

Reply to Some Quotes (paapi 10:13, 23 February 2010 (UTC))

HS: Veer ji, Guru's hukam is - this holy Granth is Guru of Sikhs. Everything in it provides us with guidance. There is no instruction left by the Gurus to others - if there is please let me know where it? When did the Gurus say that Muslims or Hindus should accept this as their Guru or as anything else? In the ardas we say - "sab sikhkan ko hukam ha --- Guru maneo Granth" where do we say that Muslims and Hindus also have such instruction?

Paapi: Objection, Guru Granth Sahib is for all who want to learn wether Hindu or Muslim or Sikh or Christian. sab sikhkan ko hukam ha --- Guru maneo Granth((These ae wordings of some Gursikh not of any Guru)). Sikhs should not claim it as their own granth, even Dasam Granth and Sarabloh Granth never claims that these are for Sikhs only. Sikhs have Rehat but no Maryada. Sikhs have Sidha but no Sidhant. Sikhs are god loving people wether belong to any community. A True Muslim is Sikh, What Muslim is explaned in Guru Granth Sahib. One have to be True, believe in Truth then only he is SIkh. Sikh is called Sach Dharam (Boliyey Sach Dharam Jhoot na Bolie).Jhoot(lie) is Jagat Tamasha. No doubt some Sikh Samudaye claim their own right on Guru Granth Sahib because written by their own guru but this Updesh is for all.(Dhur ki bani aayi) how can you say Dhur ki bani is just for sikhs? is god only for sikhs? No, one who follow god is Sikh (paapi 10:05, 23 February 2010 (UTC))


HS: Veer ji, we are talking about pain and suffering NOT about life; we are talking about compassion - eyes in you heart! How do you feel when you kill another animal? Can you see any suffering and pain? If not then carry on. If you do then let Gurbani guide you. "ਨਿਰਦਇਆ ਨਹੀ ਜੋਤਿ ਉਜਾਲਾ ॥ You have no compassion; the Lord's Light does not shine in you. ਬੂਡਤ ਬੂਡੇ ਸਰਬ ਜੰਜਾਲਾ ॥੪॥ You are drowned, drowned in worldly entanglements.(4)" (SGGS p 903) Kind regards, Hari Singhtalk 03:56, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

Paapi: We say in Punjabi Arth da Anarth. veer ji wrong tuks are picked:
ਬਿੰਦ੝ ਨ ਰਾਖਹਿ ਜਤੀ ਕਹਾਵਹਿ ॥ ਮਾਈ ਮਾਗਤ ਤ੝ਰੈ ਲੋਭਾਵਹਿ ॥ ਨਿਰਦਇਆ ਨਹੀ ਜੋਤਿ ਉਜਾਲਾ ॥ ਬੂਡਤ ਬੂਡੇ ਸਰਬ ਜੰਜਾਲਾ ॥੪॥

Binḝ na rĝkẖahi jaṯī kahĝvėh. Mĝ▫ī mĝgaṯ ṯarai lobẖĝvėh. Nirḝa▫i▫ĝ nahī joṯ ujĝlĝ. Būdaṯ būde sarab janjĝlĝ. ||4||

You do not control your seed and semen, and yet you claim to practice abstinence. You beg from Maya, lured by the three qualities. You have no compassion; the Lord's Light does not shine in you. You are drowned, drowned in worldly entanglements. ||4||

ਬਿੰਦ੝ = ਵੀਰਜ। ਮਾਈ = ਮਾਇਆ। ਤ੝ਰੈ = (ਮਾਇਆ ਦੇ) ਤਿੰਨ ਗ੝ਣਾਂ ਵਿਚ। ਲੋਭਾਵਹਿ = ਤੂੰ ਗ੝ਰਸਿਆ ਹੋਇਆ ਹੈਂ। ਉਜਾਲਾ = ਚਾਨਣ, ਪ੝ਰਕਾਸ਼। ਬੂਡਤ ਬੂਡੇ = ਡ੝ੱਬਦਾ ਡ੝ੱਬ ਗਿਆ।੪।

ਹੇ ਜੋਗੀ! ਤੂੰ ਕਾਮ-ਵਾਸਨਾ ਤੋਂ ਆਪਣੇ ਆਪ ਨੂੰ ਨਹੀਂ ਬਚਾਂਦਾ, ਪਰ (ਫਿਰ ਭੀ ਲੋਕਾਂ ਪਾਸੋਂ) ਜਤੀ ਅਖਵਾ ਰਿਹਾ ਹੈਂ। ਮਾਇਆ ਮੰਗਦਾ ਮੰਗਦਾ ਤੂੰ ਤ੝ਰੈਗ੝ਣੀ ਮਾਇਆ ਵਿਚ ਫਸ ਰਿਹਾ ਹੈਂ। ਜਿਸ ਮਨ੝ੱਖ ਦੇ ਅੰਦਰ ਕਠੋਰਤਾ ਹੋਵੇ ਉਸ ਦੇ ਹਿਰਦੇ ਵਿਚ ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਦੀ ਜੋਤਿ ਦਾ ਚਾਨਣ ਨਹੀਂ ਹੋ ਸਕਦਾ, (ਸਹਿਜੇ ਸਹਿਜੇ) ਡ੝ੱਬਦਾ ਡ੝ੱਬਦਾ ਉਹ (ਮਾਇਆ ਦੇ) ਸਾਰੇ ਜੰਜਾਲਾਂ ਵਿਚ ਡ੝ੱਬ ਜਾਂਦਾ ਹੈ।੪। (paapi 10:05, 23 February 2010 (UTC))

Lucky: Pehlan Tikaw, Fir Vichar, Fir Visthar, Fir Sehansheelta, Fir Shukrana. Rasta Daso, but Lehja Sahi hovey. Jehdi Vichar nal tuhanu Shanti nahi mildi, oh theek nahi. Do not taunt anyone. Thand Rakho Socho fir Gall karo. Remember jehda banda opposite bol reha oh v Veecharan wale hann. Je tuhade Vichar sahi honge, ohna nu accept karna pavega. But lehje da khyal rakho, please

Reply by HS to Paapi ji and Lucky ji

Point C1.1: Most of Gurbani aimed at Sikhs

"Sab Sikhan ko Hukam hai Guru Maneyo Granth" is the saying of Guru Gobind Singh which has been captured by various Sikhs in their Rehitnama - see article Guru Maneo Granth. However, the underlying fact remains that the Guru Granth is deemed to be a Guru for the Sikhs. The previous Gurus were the Gurus or teachers of Sikhs; their followers were called Sikhs. So the same applies to the holy Granth - it is primarily a scripture which is aimed at the Sikhs; the content of the holy Granth is primarily meant for Sikhs. As this is a side issue, I do not want to dwell on this point further. Let me concentrate on matters that are more central to the main issue.

Now turning to Shabads that mention others including Muslims, Hindus, Pandits, Mullahs, Manmukhs, etc are still intended at Sikhs. Let us just look at one example - Here the Guru says:

"ਪੰਡਿਤ ਵਾਚਹਿ ਪੋਥੀਆ ਨਾ ਬੂਝਹਿ ਵੀਚਾਰ੝ ॥ ਅਨ ਕਉ ਮਤੀ ਦੇ ਚਲਹਿ ਮਾਇਆ ਕਾ ਵਾਪਾਰ੝ ॥ ਕਥਨੀ ਝੂਠੀ ਜਗ੝ ਭਵੈ ਰਹਣੀ ਸਬਦ੝ ਸ੝ ਸਾਰ੝ ॥੬॥ The Pandits, the religious scholars, read their books, but they do not understand the real meaning. They give instructions to others, and then walk away, but they deal in Maya themselves. Speaking falsehood, they wander around the world, while those who remain true to the Shabad are excellent and exalted. (6)" (SGGS p 56)

Now the Shabad is addressing Pundits but it does not mean that we, as Sikhs cannot learn anything from it; the underlying message is what is important. In fact any human being reading this shabad can learn from this shabad. The first message in the hymn come from the part: "Scholars read their holy text but do not understand its real meaning". Now from this it is clear that Gurmat dictates that one should read their holy books and understand the real meaning. This applies to Sikhs, Hindus, Muslims and everyone else.

The point I am making here is that from this Shabad that addresses Pundits, we can learn and understand what Gurmat (Guru's way; or Guru's instruction) is; by implication what the Guru is saying is that when a Sikh reads Bani he or she must also understand its real meaning; so reading on its own is not enough; one MUST understand the real significance of the text; so understanding the meaning of the text is fundamental to Gurmat and so essential for a Gursikh who is treading the path of the Guru.

To keep things brief, I will not analyse the shabad any further. From this exercise, I hope you can see that even text in the holy Granth that addresses others like Pundits, Mullah, etc has significance for us; in fact all of Gurbani has importance to the Sikh and is aimed at us so that we can learn for it.

Point C1.2: Significance of Bhai Gurdas ji da Varan

Veer ji, Bhai Gurdas ji's Varan have been honoured by Guru Arjan - they are the key to Gurbani. - see Bhai Gurdas "His Varan have been referred to by Guru Arjan as the "Key" ("khungee") to the Guru Granth Sahib." So I think if you cannot accept Bhai Sahib varan than you cannot "open the meaning" of Gurbani. You need to re-evaluate your stand against the varan; they form an important part of our history and are next only to Gurbani.

However, just for this discussion, I can highlight tuk from Gurbani which give a similar message: "{{{3}}}" ਜੀਅ ਜ੝ ਮਾਰਹਿ ਜੋਰ੝ ਕਰਿ ਕਹਤੇ ਹਹਿ ਜ੝ ਹਲਾਲ੝ ॥ ਦਫਤਰ੝ ਦਈ ਜਬ ਕਾਢਿ ਹੈ ਹੋਇਗਾ ਕਉਨ੝ ਹਵਾਲ੝ ॥੧੯੯॥ Kabeer, they oppress living beings and kill them, and call it proper. When the Lord calls for their account, what will their condition be? (199)#lਕਬੀਰ ਜੀਅ ਜ੝ ਮਾਰਹਿ ਜੋਰ੝ ਕਰਿ ਕਹਤੇ ਹਹਿ ਜ੝ ਹਲਾਲ੝ ॥ ਦਫਤਰ੝ ਦਈ ਜਬ ਕਾਢਿ ਹੈ ਹੋਇਗਾ ਕਉਨ੝ ਹਵਾਲ੝ ॥੧੯੯॥ Kabeer, they oppress living beings and kill them, and call it proper. When the Lord calls for their account, what will their condition be? (199) (SGGS p ). This shabad is giving the same message that Bhai Gurdas ji conveyed in the 2 varan that were quoted before; if you oppress living beings and kill them, you will have to account for them. see C5 below also.

Point C2: Mortals, forests, grass.... all meditate on You

Veer ji, Everything mediates on the Lord. The reason I quoted this line was because you said "Problem is the Interpretation of Gurbani in english, Does man live in dirt and eat mud?, then tell me do Creatures enshrine in God's love? Dog enshrine in God's love, lion enshrine in god's love? if yes, then What is proved from here that these things keep no significance(Maas, Jog, Ghaas, delicacies)....if no then same thing."

This tuk shows that according to Gurbani everything meditates on the Lord; however, man has to eat something; whatever man eats will be mediating on the Lord. There is nothing in the natural world that does not meditate on God. If we follow your thought/line of logic then there is nothing for us to eat as everything mediates on God - surely that cannot be right and was not what I said.

Veer ji, the point I made is that Gurbani wants us to have compassion; Guru ji tells us not to be blind to "look through the eyes of our heart" ie: "ਅੰਧਾ ਸੋਇ ਜਿ ਅੰਧ੝ ਕਮਾਵੈ ਤਿਸ੝ ਰਿਦੈ ਸਿ ਲੋਚਨ ਨਾਹੀ ॥ They alone are blind, who act blindly. They have no eyes in their hearts." (SGGS p 1289)

If you cannot see pain in others then in Gurbani's language you are spiritually blind and you will act blindly; if you are blind, you will do acts and deeds which will lead you backwards in spiritual terms.

If you can see pain in others and can perceive this then at least spiritually you are not blind; once you can perceive pain in others then hopefully you can act in a way where you can reduce this suffering; this action of reducing pain to others is recognised by Gurbani and will move you forward in Gurmat.

Point C3.2: Hasn't your heart any eyes

Veer ji, as explained earlier, just because Gurbani addresses a Pundit, it does not mean that it is not intended for us. We have to learn from every line and every word of Gurbani. The Guru has used examples of various actions and rituals to explain to us the right path; it does not matter who the actors are in the plot, we have to learn from the example that the Guru's gives; we have to learn from the plot! During the times of the Guru's the world was predominately Hindus and Muslims. So a lot of the Bani is directly with them as actors; however the message in those plots apply to us just as much as they applied to them. If it is wrong for a pundit to worship a stone idol; then a Sikh worshipping a stone idol is following manmat and is equally wrong.

"ਅੰਧਾ ਸੋਇ ਜਿ ਅੰਧ੝ ਕਮਾਵੈ ਤਿਸ੝ ਰਿਦੈ ਸਿ ਲੋਚਨ ਨਾਹੀ ॥ They alone are blind, who act blindly. They have no eyes in their hearts." (SGGS p 1289)

This line says: "Andha soee je andh kamvai tis ridai sa lochan nahee." Veer ji, you have translated this as "The Internal eyes are to see the god" the official translation is "They alone are blind, who act blindly. They have no eyes in their hearts" as you know "ridai" refers to heart lochan = eyes/sight; andha = blind; kamvai = to earn; this is all simple Punjabi which most can understand. the phrase "tis ridai sa lochan nahee" means "Hasn't your heart any eyes" or "Hasn't your heart any sight". How do you make it anything else?

Veer ji below are some of the tuks where the Guru has used the word "ਰਿਦੈ" - heart and clearly it shows the link to "your inner feeling or deeper personality" see wikipedia:Heart (symbol) for other meanings. God can also reside in your heart according to Gurbani and this is used most frequently.

Alternative use of the word "heart" in SGGS:

SGGS page no. Tuk
SGGS p108 Meditating on the Naam, the Name of the Lord, my heart is filled with peace.
SGGS p212 Those Gurmukhs whose hearts are filled with wisdom,
SGGS p339 If my heart is pure, and I am slandered, then the slanderer washes my clothes. (1)
SGGS p663 He is rid of his demerits, and his heart is permeated with merit and virtue.
SGGS p808 My heart is illumined, and the Lord has become manifest; night and day, I remain awake and aware. (3)
SGGS p964 I am well-known as being calm and good-natured; my heart is filled with Truth.
SGGS p1205 But as long as his heart is not enlightened, he is stuck in pitch black darkness. (1)
SGGS p1351 You perform daily cleansing rituals, wear two loin-cloths, perform religious rituals and put only milk in your mouth. But in your heart, you have drawn out the sword.
SGGS p1351 You wear the rosary beads of Shiva around your neck, but your heart is filled with falsehood.

veer ji the phrase "ਤਾਂ ਇਹਨਾਂ ਦਾ ਕੀਹ ਹਾਲ ਹੋਵੇਗਾ" - "ta enh da keh haal hovaga" - "so what will be their situation?" vey well explains the implications for the person who kills animals by force.

Point C3.5

Veer ji, The Punjabi translation does not really help us at all. The phrase "ਜਿਸ ਦੇ ਦਿਲ ਵਿਚ ਉਹ ਅੱਖਾਂ ਨਹੀਂ ਹਨ" "jis da deel which ooh akha nahee haan" "in whose heart those eyes are not present" just gives us a literal meaning which we already had - They have no eyes in their hearts The important thing is what this mean in reality - this phrase (ਭਾਵ, ਜੋ ਸਮਝ ਤੋਂ ਸੱਖਣਾ ਹੈ), "phav - jo samaj toh skhna haa" means "one who cannot understand" or "is unable to understand" again does not really help. To me, if you look at all the tuks listed above relating to heart, it is clear that the heart is connected with wisdom, truth or falsehood, is either awake or asleep, etc it the centre of your moral or concious personality. If this is blind then you have no conciousness and no mortality and no direction. Further, as the person acts blindly and without direction he or she has no virtues to keep them on the path of truth; so cannot exercise the virtues of Sat (Truth), Santokh (Contentment), Daya (Compassion), Nimrata (Humility) and Pyare (Love); two of these are relevant to others - love and compassion as humility, truth and contentment are ones which you employ internally or within oneself.

Point C4: updesh to Pundits and Muslims?

Veer ji, as explained before, the holy Granth is primarily for Sikhs; it is written in Gurmukhi, a language which can only be easily read by Sikhs. If Guru sahib wanted Hindus to read Guru Granth, it would be written in their language. As you know, when Guru Gobind Singh wanted to write to Aurangzeb, he wrote in Persian, a language that he could understand. So I am sure that the Sikh Gurus would have written in Urdu, Hindu, Sanskrit, etc according to who the Gurus wanted to influence.

Point C5:

Veer ji: Compassion is when you feel something directly - If you are relying on others like scientists and others then I feel we are moving into fictional territory. Whne we see another person in pain due to hunger - it is a direct thing. The doctor might saw the person has no pain; it is what one feels from ones own senses that is important.

You say "Food have no relation with our spiritual life" but Gurbani is saying the opposite. "The Flower and the Fruit of the Lord's Love are obtained by pre-ordained destiny. As we plant, so we harvest and eat. (2)" (SGGS p 25)

Point C6:Food is not everything

Veer ji, One may be a veggie but have no virtues and never remember God or read Bani; in that case he or she may also be doomed. To follow the path of Gurmat, one has to be aware of many things that make a person Gurmukh. Simply changing ones diet in itself is not sufficient; it may be a start but it does not get you to the final destination. The opposite is also not true. Bhagat Sadhana was a butcher, but he attained salvation when he was finally enlightened. So many things have to be done to reach Sacha Darbar.


Point C7: Karmic account

Veer ji, also what about your Karmic account. Guru ji says: "ਬਾਕੀ ਵਾਲਾ ਤਲਬੀਝ ਸਿਰਿ ਮਾਰੇ ਜੰਦਾਰ੝ ਜੀਉ ॥ ਲੇਖਾ ਮੰਗੈ ਦੇਵਣਾ ਪ੝ਛੈ ਕਰਿ ਬੀਚਾਰ੝ ਜੀਉ ॥ One who has a karmic debt to pay off is summoned, and the Messenger of Death smashes his head. When his account is called for, it has to be given. After it is reviewed, payment is demanded." (SGGS p 751)


Also, if you have not done the right things including.... showing compassion.... then read on: "ਜਉ ਜਮ੝ ਆਇ ਕੇਸ ਗਹਿ ਪਟਕੈ ਤਾ ਦਿਨ ਕਿਛ੝ ਨ ਬਸਾਹਿਗਾ ॥ ਸਿਮਰਨ੝ ਭਜਨ੝ ਦਇਆ ਨਹੀ ਕੀਨੀ ਤਉ ਮ੝ਖਿ ਚੋਟਾ ਖਾਹਿਗਾ ॥੨॥ When the Messenger of Death comes and grabs you by the hair, and knocks you down, on that day, you shall be powerless. You do not remember the Lord, or vibrate upon Him in meditation, and you do not practice compassion; you shall be beaten on your face. (2)" (SGGS p 1106) Without practising these virtues and treading on the path of righteousness, the treatment will be harsh!

When one kills or eat the goat, who will settle the karmic account of the killer or eater? Kabir ji say - "ਕਬੀਰ ਖੂਬ੝ ਖਾਨਾ ਖੀਚਰੀ ਜਾ ਮਹਿ ਅੰਮ੝ਰਿਤ੝ ਲੋਨ੝ ॥ ਹੇਰਾ ਰੋਟੀ ਕਾਰਨੇ ਗਲਾ ਕਟਾਵੈ ਕਉਨ੝ ॥੧੮੮॥ Kabeer, the dinner of beans and rice is excellent, if it is flavored with salt. Who would cut his throat, to have meat with his bread? (188)" (SGGS p 1374)

Don't you think it is easier to settle your account in the form of a tomato or cabbage rather than as a goat or chicken?

Many thanks for the interesting debate. I am thankful to you for engaging in this discussion as it forced me to dive into more Gurbani and in the process I have learnt several new things. May Waheguru keep you in chardikala. Kind regards, Hari Singhtalk 04:58, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

Reply (paapi 15:07, 25 February 2010 (UTC))

Was Guru Gobind Singh/Hargobind having no Compassion?

  • General View A person who has so compassion in heart that he even can't bear killing an animal, i am surprised how will he kill a Human with Sword as Sikhs use to shout KHALSA AKAL PURAKH KI FAUJ. This compassion would have ruined Sikhs if they starts compassion feeling watching Mughal fauj. but No they killed Many. I know someladies who have GATRA on their body and they say @We are not able to see an animal got [email protected] i use to say them then put off this gatra and give it to some fighter, this gatra is not made for you. You do not know how to use sword and you wear gatra and you do not know that swords food is Blood. How could you give it if you are so Kind/Compassion hearted? and if you are not kind/compassion hearted in that case then What fake compassion a person is showing? paapi

Bhai sahib, You are confusing compassion and bravery. These are two different virtues which need to be exercised in completely different situations. Also, you appear to be taking the matter out of context.

Compassion: The first virtue that we have talked about is compassion. The situation under our current consideration involves the killing of a small animal like a goat and a chicken to eat its body for food. No bravery is required as such as the animal poses no danger to man; a normal goat or chicken cannot kill and is no danger to man or woman; especially if it is restrained before slaughtered.

Bravery: Bhai sahib, you have introduced the subject of bravery. When a small animal is involved, we cannot start talking about bravery. Bravery comes in when fighting against another of equal or more stronger body; possibly an enemy who is trying hard to kill you. Against a small goat there is no question of self defence or of bravery!

Hunting large animals to secure safety for traveller, villager or domesticated animal is also a different matter than killing of small animal for food. Here there is no danger that the goat or chicken will attack the human and kill him or her. Where is the question of bravery against a foot high chicken or a 2 feet high goat? It is no match against a nearly 6 feet tall man with a sharp sword or knife! This is pure bullying and complete "no match" as far as combat is concerned; this is not bravery its cruelty. If you have a strong heart watch this gruesome video of animals being killed - You have been warned this is very cruel behaviour and terrible treatment of animals - SIKHI AND MEAT-IS IT ALLOWED? Gruesome video - exercise discretion (NOT FOR THE FAINT-HEARTED)

Guru Gobind Singh did not go round killing defenceless small animals like goats and chickens for food; he was a brave warrior and extremely kind-hearted. When the Guru did hunt, it was large dangerous animals which were a threat to travellers, villager and domestic animals. He killed wild animals like tigers, boars, bears and other such dangerous animals not sheep and goats.

Remember in those days village people were poor and not well armed and many villagers, children and domesticated animals were killed by animals. In the late 1600s, hunting was a challenge and the gun was not the preferred weapon of use against these animals as it was not accurate or quick enough. Swords, bow and arrow and spears were some of the weapons used by the hunters; it was generally a face to face combat. It was a act of bravery to hunt in those days; only the strong and able hunters would take part in these hunts.

The article from the New York Times highlights the danger of wild animals to Mankind in the 1880. "The total number of persons killed by snakes and wild beasts in the several Provinces of India during 1880 has gradually increased from 19,273 in 1876 to 21,990 in 1880. The largest number of deaths occurred in Bengal and the North-western Provinces and Oudh, in which Provinces the deaths during the year aggregated 11,359 and 5,284, respectively." Read More Here So it can be seen that even in 1880 this danger was serious. Obviously in 1680, 200 years earlier it was probably even worse. Please read the attached references for more information on this issue. Hari Singhtalk

    • GUrus also klilled Wild Boars, Rabbits, Deers, Lions, pigs etc. he was a warrior. i think you are saying to kill lion and take it as food? why people travel to those areas where lions were more. why guru gobind doesn't tell right way? he even killed goats during khalsa initiation, he even killed buffalo at bathinda. He killed many animals sir and ya Humans too. paapi

Other references:

Many thanks for providing an opportunity to understand Gurbani and airing of my views on this subject. Kind regards, Hari Singhtalk 00:45, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

Implications of having no compassion

Also, Bhai sahib, if you have not done the right things including.... showing compassion.... in your life then read on... the Guru tells us: "ਜਉ ਜਮ੝ ਆਇ ਕੇਸ ਗਹਿ ਪਟਕੈ ਤਾ ਦਿਨ ਕਿਛ੝ ਨ ਬਸਾਹਿਗਾ ॥ ਸਿਮਰਨ੝ ਭਜਨ੝ ਦਇਆ ਨਹੀ ਕੀਨੀ ਤਉ ਮ੝ਖਿ ਚੋਟਾ ਖਾਹਿਗਾ ॥੨॥ When the Messenger of Death comes and grabs you by the hair, and knocks you down, on that day, you shall be powerless. You do not remember the Lord, or vibrate upon Him in meditation, and you do not practice compassion; you shall be beaten on your face. (2)" (SGGS p 1106) Without practising these virtues and treading on the path of righteousness, the ones treatment before Dharmaraj will be harsh! Hari Singhtalk

Response: Do you know who is Messenger of Death and to whom it is said to have compassion? paapi

HS: No, Bhai sahib please enlighten me. Hari Singhtalk 00:26, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

Karmic account

When one kills or eats the goat, who will settle the karmic account of the killer or eater? Kabir ji say - "ਕਬੀਰ ਖੂਬ੝ ਖਾਨਾ ਖੀਚਰੀ ਜਾ ਮਹਿ ਅੰਮ੝ਰਿਤ੝ ਲੋਨ੝ ॥ ਹੇਰਾ ਰੋਟੀ ਕਾਰਨੇ ਗਲਾ ਕਟਾਵੈ ਕਉਨ੝ ॥੧੮੮॥ Kabeer, the dinner of beans and rice is excellent, if it is flavored with salt. Who would cut his throat, to have meat with his bread? (188)" (SGGS p 1374) Hari Singhtalk

Response:

When Guru Gobind Singh killed animals during hunt then they might not have read these points.

You put wrong meanings, it's word by word translation i.e AKHARI arth but not Bhaavarth.

ਹੇ ਕਬੀਰ! (ਮ੝ੱਲਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਬੇਸ਼ੱਕ ਆਖ ਕਿ ਕ੝ਰਬਾਨੀ ਦੇ ਬਹਾਨੇ ਮਾਸ ਖਾਣ ਨਾਲੋਂ) ਖਿਚੜੀ ਖਾ ਲੈਣੀ ਚੰਗੀ ਹੈ ਜਿਸ ਵਿਚ ਸਿਰਫ਼ ਸ੝ਆਦਲਾ ਲੂਣ ਹੀ ਪਾਇਆ ਹੋਇਆ ਹੋਵੇ। ਮੈਂ ਤਾਂ ਇਸ ਗੱਲ ਲਈ ਤਿਆਰ ਨਹੀਂ ਹਾਂ ਕਿ ਮਾਸ ਰੋਟੀ ਖਾਣ ਦੀ ਨਿਯਤ ਮੇਰੀ ਆਪਣੀ ਹੋਵੇ ਪਰ (ਕ੝ਰਬਾਨੀ ਦਾ ਹੋਕਾ ਦੇ ਦੇ ਕੇ ਕਿਸੇ ਪਸ਼ੂ ਨੂੰ) ਜ਼ਬਹ ਕਰਦਾ ਫਿਰਾਂ।੧੮੮। ❀ ਨੋਟ: ਮ੝ੱਲਾਂ ਮ੝ਨਾਰੇ ਤੇ ਚੜ੝ਹ ਕੇ ਬਾਂਗ ਦੇਂਦਾ ਹੈ ਤਾਕਿ ਮ੝ਸਲਮਾਨ ਸ੝ਣ ਕੇ ਨਮਾਜ਼ ਪੜ੝ਹਨ ਲਈ ਮਸਜਿਦ ਵਿਚ ਆ ਜਾਣ। ਪਰ ਜੇ ਉਸ ਦੇ ਆਪਣੇ ਦਿਲ ਵਿਚ ਕਠੋਰਤਾ ਹੈ, ਤਾਂ ਜਿਥੋਂ ਤਕ ਉਸ ਦੀ ਆਪਣੀ ਜ਼ਾਤ ਦਾ ਤਅੱਲਕ ਹੈ, ਉਸ ਨੂੰ ਇਸ ਬਾਂਗ ਦੇਣ ਦਾ ਕੋਈ ਲਾਭ ਨਹੀਂ। ਰੱਬ ਦਿਲ ਵਿਚ ਵੱਸਦਾ ਹੈ, ਜੇ ਉਹ ਵੱਸਦਾ ਦਿੱਸ ਪਝ ਤਾਂ ਦਿਲ ਵਿਚ (in your heart) ਨਰਮਾਈ (kindness/compassion) ਤੇ ਪਿਆਰ (love) ਪੈਦਾ ਹੋਣਾ ਚਾਹੀਦਾ ਹੈ। ਜੇ ਇਹ ਅਵਸਥਾ ਨਹੀਂ ਬਣੀ ਤਾਂ ਉੱਚੀ ਬੋਲਿਆਂ ਰੱਬ ਨੂੰ ਅਸੀਂ ਧੋਖਾ ਨਹੀਂ ਦੇ ਸਕਦੇ। ❀ ਨੋਟ: ਕੋਈ ਭੀ ਮਜ਼ਹਬ ਧਰਮ ਹੋਵੇ, ਇਨਸਾਨ ਵਾਸਤੇ ਉਹ ਤਦ ਤਕ ਹੀ ਲਾਭਦਾਇਕ ਹੈ ਜਦ ਤਕ ਉਸ ਦੇ ਦੱਸੇ ਪੂਰਨਿਆਂ ਉਤੇ ਤ੝ਰ ਕੇ ਮਨ੝ੱਖ ਆਪਣੇ ਦਿਲ ਵਿਚ ਭਲਾਈ ਪੈਦਾ ਕਰਨ ਦੀ ਕੋਸ਼ਸ਼ ਕਰਦਾ ਹੈ, ਖ਼ਾਲਕ ਅਤੇ ਉਸ ਦੀ ਖ਼ਲਕਤਿ ਵਾਸਤੇ ਦਿਲ ਵਿਚ ਮ੝ਹੱਬਤਿ ਬਣਾਂਦਾ ਹੈ। ਜਦੋਂ ਮਨ੝ੱਖ ਰਿਵਾਜੀ ਤੌਰ ਤੇ ਮਜ਼ਹਬ ਦੇ ਅਸੂਲਾਂ ਅਤੇ ਰਸਮਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਕਰਨ ਲੱਗ ਪੈਂਦਾ ਹੈ, ਪਰ ਇਹ ਨਹੀਂ ਵੇਖਦਾ ਕਿ ਦਿਲ ਵਿਚ ਕੋਈ ਭਲੀ ਤਬਦੀਲੀ ਆਈ ਹੈ ਜਾਂ ਨਹੀਂ, ਜਾਂ, ਸਗੋਂ ਕਿਤੇ ਭਲਾਈ ਦੇ ਥਾਂ ਅੰਦਰ ਕਠੋਰਤਾ (bitterness/toughness) ਤਅੱਸਬ ਆਦਿਕ ਤਾਂ ਨਹੀਂ ਵਧ ਰਹੇ, ਉਸ ਵੇਲੇ ਉਸ ਦੇ ਸਾਰੇ ਧਾਰਮਿਕ ਉੱਦਮ ਵਿਅਰਥ ਹੋ ਜਾਂਦੇ ਹਨ। ਪਠਾਣਾਂ ਮ੝ਗ਼ਲਾਂ ਦੇ ਰਾਜ ਵੇਲੇ (during the Mughal rule) ਅਸਾਡੇ ਦੇਸ਼ ਵਿਚ ਇਸਲਾਮੀ ਸ਼ਰਹ ਦਾ ਕਾਨੂੰਨ ਚੱਲਦਾ ਸੀ। ਭਾਰਤ ਵਾਸੀਆਂ ਵਾਸਤੇ ਅਤੇ ਆਮ ਪਠਾਣਾਂ ਮ੝ਗ਼ਲਾਂ ਵਾਸਤੇ ਭੀ ਅਰਬੀ ਬੋਲੀ ਬਿਗਾਨੇ ਦੇਸ ਦੀ ਬੋਲੀ ਸੀ; ਸੋ ਹਰੇਕ ਮ੝ਸਲਮਾਨ ਕ੝ਰਾਨ ਸ਼ਰਫ਼ਿ ਨੂੰ ਨਹੀਂ ਸੀ ਸਮਝ ਸਕਦਾ। ਇਸ ਦਾ ਨਤੀਜਾ ਇਹ ਨਿਕਲਿਆ ਕਿ ਜਿਥੋਂ ਤਕ ਕਾਨੂੰਨ ਨੂੰ ਵਰਤਣ ਦਾ ਸੰਬੰਧ ਪੈਂਦਾ ਸੀ, ਰਾਜਸੀ ਤਾਕਤ ਕਾਜ਼ੀਆਂ ਮੌਲਵੀਆਂ ਦੇ ਹੱਥ ਵਿਚ ਸੀ ਕਿਉਂਕਿ ਇਹ ਲੋਕ ਕ੝ਰਾਨ ਸ਼ਰੀਫ ਦੇ ਅਰਥ ਕਰਨ ਵਿਚ ਇਤਬਾਰ-ਜੋਗ ਮੰਨੇ ਜਾਂਦੇ ਸਨ। ਇਕ ਪਾਸੇ ਇਹ ਲੋਕ ਰਾਜਸੀ ਤਾਕਤ ਦੇ ਮਾਲਕ; ਦੂਜੇ ਪਾਸੇ, ਇਹੀ ਲੋਕ ਧਾਰਮਿਕ ਆਗੂ ਆਮ ਲੋਕਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਜੀਵਨ ਦਾ ਸਹੀ ਰਾਹ ਦੱਸਣ ਵਾਲੇ। ਇਹੀ ਦੋਵੇਂ ਵਿਰੋਧੀ ਗੱਲਾਂ ਇਕੱਠੀਆਂ ਹੋ ਗਈਆਂ। ਰਾਜ ਪ੝ਰਬੰਧ ਚਲਾਣ ਵੇਲੇ ਗ਼੝ਲਾਮ ਹਿੰਦੂ ਕੌਮ ਉਤੇ ਕਠੋਰਤਾ ਵਰਤਣੀ ਇਹਨਾਂ ਲੋਕਾਂ ਵਾਸਤੇ ਕ੝ਦਰਤੀ ਗੱਲ ਸੀ। ਪਰ ਇਸ ਕਠੋਰਤਾ ਨੂੰ ਆਪਣੇ ਵਲੋਂ ਇਹ ਲੋਕ ਇਸਲਾਮੀ ਸ਼ਰਹ ਸਮਝਦੇ ਤੇ ਦੱਸਦੇ ਸਨ। ਸੋ, ਮਜ਼ਹਬ ਵਿਚੋਂ ਇਹਨਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਸ੝ਭਾਵਿਕ ਹੀ ਦਿਲ ਦੀ ਕਠੋਰਤਾ ਹੀ ਮਿਲਦੀ ਗਈ। ਜਿਸ ਭੀ ਦੇਸ ਵਿਚ ਰਾਜ-ਪ੝ਰਬੰਧ ਕਿਸੇ ਖ਼ਾਸ ਮਜ਼ਹਬ ਦੇ ਅਸੂਲਾਂ ਅਨ੝ਸਾਰ ਚਲਾਇਆ ਜਾਂਦਾ ਰਿਹਾ ਹੈ, ਉਸ ਮਜ਼ਹਬ ਦੇ ਪ੝ਰਚਾਰਕਾਂ ਦਾ ਇਹੀ ਹਾਲ ਹ੝ੰਦਾ ਰਿਹਾ ਹੈ। ਕਬੀਰ ਜੀ ਆਪਣੇ ਵਕਤ ਦੇ ਕਾਜ਼ੀਆਂ ਮੌਲਵੀਆਂ ਦੀ ਇਹ ਹਾਲਤ ਵੇਖ ਕੇ ਇਹਨਾਂ ਸ਼ਲੋਕਾਂ ਵਿਚ ਕਹਿ ਰਹੇ ਹਨ ਕਿ ਮਜ਼ਹਬ ਨੇ, ਮਜ਼ਹਬ ਦੀ ਰਹ੝-ਰੀਤੀ ਨੇ, ਬਾਂਗ ਨਿਮਾਜ਼ ਹੱਜ ਆਦਿਕ ਨੇ, ਦਿਲ ਦੀ ਸਫ਼ਾਈ ਸਿਖਾਣੀ ਸੀ। ਪਰ ਜੇ ਰਿਸ਼ਵਤ, ਕਠੋਰਤਾ, ਤਅੱਸਬ ਆਦਿਕ ਦੇ ਕਾਰਨ ਦਿਲ ਨਿਰਦਈ ਹੋ ਚ੝ਕਾ ਹੈ, ਸਗੋਂ ਇਹੀ ਕਰਮ ਦਿਲ ਨੂੰ ਹੋਰ ਕਠੋਰ ਬਣਾਈ ਜਾ ਰਹੇ ਹਨ, ਤਾਂ ਇਹਨਾਂ ਦੇ ਕਰਨ ਦਾ ਕੋਈ ਲਾਭ ਨਹੀਂ। ਇਹੀ ਖ਼ਿਆਲ ਕਬੀਰ ਜੀ ਨੇ ਪ੝ਰਭਾਤੀ ਰਾਗ ਦੇ ਸ਼ਬਦ ਨੰ: ੪ ਵਿਚ ਦੱਸਿਆ ਹੈ: ...ਮਲਾਂ, ਕਹਹ੝ ਨਿਆਉ ਖ੝ਦਾਈ ॥ ਤੇਰੇ ਮਨ ਕਾ ਭਰਮ ਨ ਜਾਈ ॥੧॥ਰਹਾਉ॥ ਪਕਰਿ ਜੀਉ ਆਨਿਆ, ਦੇਹ ਬਿਨਾਸੀ, ਮਾਟੀ ਕਉ ਬਿਸਮਿਲ ਕੀਆ ॥ ਜੋਤਿ ਸਰੂਪ ਅਨਾਹਤ ਲਾਗੀ, ਕਹ੝ ਹਲਾਲ੝ ਕਿਆ ਕੀਆ ॥੨॥ ਕਿਆ ਉਜੂ ਪਾਕ੝ ਕੀਆ ਮ੝ਹ੝ ਧੋਇਆ, ਕਿਆ ਮਸੀਤਿ ਸਿਰ੝ ਲਾਇਆ ॥ ਜਉ ਦਿਲ ਮਹਿ ਕਪਟ੝ ਨਿਵਾਜ ਗ੝ਜਾਰਹ੝, ਕਿਆ ਹਜ ਕਾਬੈ ਜਾਇਆ ॥੩॥ paapi HS: Please Bhai sahib tell us the Bhaavarth meaning so that we can all learn from this. Hari Singhtalk 00:26, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

Guru Maneyo Granth

"Sab Sikhan ko Hukam hai Guru Maneyo Granth" is the saying of Guru Gobind Singh which has been captured by various Sikhs in their Rehitnama - see article Guru Maneo Granth. However, the underlying fact remains that the Guru Granth is deemed to be a Guru for the Sikhs. Hari Singhtalk

could you please clear meanings of terms:

WHO IS GUR? WHO IS GURU? WHO IS SIKH and WHO IS GURSIKH. pls tell (UTC))

To most of tuks whose meanings you mistakenly taken wrong

SGGS p108 Meditating on the Naam, the Name of the Lord, my heart is filled with peace. SGGS p212 Those Gurmukhs whose hearts are filled with wisdom, SGGS p339 If my heart is pure, and I am slandered, then the slanderer washes my clothes. (1) SGGS p663 He is rid of his demerits, and his heart is permeated with merit and virtue. SGGS p808 My heart is illumined, and the Lord has become manifest; night and day, I remain awake and aware. (3) SGGS p964 I am well-known as being calm and good-natured; my heart is filled with Truth. SGGS p1205 But as long as his heart is not enlightened, he is stuck in pitch black darkness. (1) SGGS p1351 You perform daily cleansing rituals, wear two loin-cloths, perform religious rituals and put only milk in your mouth. But in your heart, you have drawn out the sword. SGGS p1351 You wear the rosary beads of Shiva around your neck, but your heart is filled with falsehood.

jus to prove point the misinterpretations are used!! (paapi 14:05, 25 February 2010

Bhai Sahib, All these tuks refer to the "heart" or ridai; I have listed these tuks to show how the symbolic "heart" is used by the Guru to show how "what is in your heart" is important to a Sikh and how the Guru words "They are blind and have no eyes in their hearts" relates to these tuks.
There is no misinterpretations here. I have only listed the tuks from the approved translation. All the translation is approved translation not my own; I have not added anything to the translations; this translation is approved by the panth and used all over the world. If you do not agree with it please explain each point clearly.
Tell us what you understand from each line. Please deal with the translation in a systematic way. If you can do a better job that Bhai Gopal Singh or Bhai Manmohan Singh or Sant Singh Khalsa than that can only be a good thing for the panth. Hari Singhtalk

Insaan Sarav Sreshat:Compassion?

  • We use leather, but never think how many animals are killed? Even making of musical instruments in gurdwaras also uses leather, should we stop using Tabla as Puda of tabla are made of leather. User:Paapi
    Bhai sahib, leather is a by-product of the meat industry. Millions of animals are killed for food; leather is a by-product of this requirement for food. If the animal was raised just for making leather, no one could afford to pay for the leather and we would use something else. No one goes to kill a cow to make a pair of shoes or musical instrument. So Bhai sahib, don't get distracted by this issue. People kill cows for the meat only - everything else has little value Hari Singhtalk

  • We use milk of cows for our needs. Is milk of cow for us of for her calf? Where is the compassion here? User:Paapi
    Bhai sahib, modern day dairy cattle can produce enough milk for both her calf and for man to consume. And provided we do not ill-treat the cow this is like Symbiosis or Commensalism that we find in other species; the cow gives us milk and in return we look after it; so its future is secured; we feed, nurture it and look after its well being for life. Now provided we treat the cow fairly then there is nothing here which is against Gurmat. Hari Singhtalk
    • What about cow's own life? Open its Sangal will she live with you, she will left and enjoy her life, User:Paapi

  • We use animals to pull carts and no have compassion? haven't they their own life? Do you think animal love to be bound? User:Paapi
    Again Bhai sahib, this is like the cow and milk situation. There is a relationship between the animal and man; provided we do not ill-treat the animal this is a good thing. It benefits both species and again secures the long term future of the animal. Also, it is environmentally sound and little greenhouse gases are produced. You will appreciate that Guru Gobind Singh used to ride horses. There is nothing anti-Gurmat here. Hari Singhtalk
    • you hit animal back, you put heavy cart on them, why no compassion? User:Paapi

  • Take curd and eat bacteria in it and kill plants ,,,,as you know these are lives? Why no compassion? User:Paapi
    Bhai sahib, we have addressed this before. Compassion is to reduce the suffering or pain in others. Guru has asked us to be Parupkaari - to do good to others.
    In breathing, which is a natural action, we kill millions of bacteria; we have little control over this action; it is necessary to survive. The second point is that not all living things have the complex senses like those found on higher animals like goats, chicken, cows, etc. Bacteria, plants and other such microbes do not have sophisticated nervous system or brain like that of higher animals. Visually or by our other senses we cannot see or hear any suffering when we pick a tomato or eat a spoon of yogurt or cut a cabbage. So, if you cannot see any suffering how can you reduce it?
    The third point and one that we have not discussed before, while walking we may kill many ants and other small animals which can experience pain but Bhai sahib there is a big difference here - we do not do these activities deliberately for the purpose of killing the animals; it is accidental. When we slaughter a goat, that is not an accident; it is a act done for the sole purpose of filling our stomachs and satisfying our taste-buds. For a Gurmukh all these things are important; to elevate the level of conciousness and to follow Gurbani. Hari Singhtalk
    • So you admit that you kill various species, rite? then i think we should not speak on this issue, You admit you kill bacterias you admit you eat many. but what you not see with your eyes, you do not involve compassion in it. bad User:Paapi

  • On Coastal area people took food when there was no transportation, would they all go to hell? User:Paapi
    Bhai sahib, Why was there no transportation; may be they were lazy? They can grow corn or wheat inland; the Lord provides for all - Dandha dah - Landah thak paeeya ਦੇਦਾ ਦੇ ਲੈਦੇ ਥਕਿ ਪਾਹਿ ॥ ਜ੝ਗਾ ਜ੝ਗੰਤਰਿ ਖਾਹੀ ਖਾਹਿ ॥ ਹ੝ਕਮੀ ਹ੝ਕਮ੝ ਚਲਾਝ ਰਾਹ੝ ॥ ਨਾਨਕ ਵਿਗਸੈ ਵੇਪਰਵਾਹ੝ ॥੩॥ The Great Giver keeps on giving, while those who receive grow weary of receiving. Throughout the ages, consumers consume. The Commander, by His Command, leads us to walk on the Path. O Nanak, He blossoms forth, Carefree and Untroubled. (3)
    Listen to Gurbani for your answer; Kabir ji addresses this directly! Hari Singhtalk

  • We call ourself Singh (Singh means lion, a non-vegetarian), but we are "vegetarian lions". How can lions have so much body power? Start giving them grass and then see what will happen User:Paapi
    Bhai sahib, we are called "Lion" because we should be brave - "ਸੂਰਾ ਸੋ ਪਹਿਚਾਨੀਝ ਜ੝ ਲਰੈ ਦੀਨ ਕੇ ਹੇਤ ॥ He alone is known as a spiritual hero, who fights in defense of religion. " not because we should eat meat. If we follow your logic then Bhai sahib, should we roam the jungles and keep many mates for breeding?
    Meat does not give an animal power; Elephant, gorilla, giraffe, camel, horse, buffalo, hippo, and rhino eat grass and vegetation but are stronger than a lion and other meat eating animals. Deer and antelope are faster. Hari Singhtalk

  • we use wool sheep and goats. Compassion? Why you cut animal hairs, does he come to you and say cut my hairs and make your sweaters? User:Paapi
    Bhai sahib, please see the reply to the cow and milk issue. Cutting wool from sheep does not cause any lasting pain or suffering to the animal. So there is no issue here. We take wool in return for looking after the animal. When we slaughter an animal we don't give the animal anything for taking its life. Please read Sakhi of Bhagat Sadhana Hari Singhtalk
    • you have no compassion sir, you cut their hairs for your use. bad, sheep never allow you to cut it, but you do. Compassion term for you is related to death. If someone cuts our hairs for making wigs, then? User:Paapi

  • we use Dog for security. Compassion!!! we bind dog at house!! We sell dog's babies and animals?? What compassion? We use Goat, Buffalo and cow for our milky needs, we bind them to a stick. Compassion? Horses used for Races, compassion, Nihungs have their horses, they care them, but they have to bind horses no compassion Donkeys are used to putt loads User:Paapi
    Bhai sahib, for all of these refer to the cow and milk also animals and cart. Hari Singhtalk
    • wrong, Human is Incompassionate. Your compassion deal with killing, you do not find compassion here amazing? If someone put load on you, if some animal start using human milk, if we gonna sell human babies? Selling Animal babies is Ok but selling human babies is crime? Compassion? User:Paapi

  • Animals at used at war side, many are killed User:Paapi
    Bhai sahib, Man are killed as well. They are not there just to be killed but to help fight and win the battle. The Guru's also used horses in their battles with the enemy. Hari Singhtalk
    • Very bad, Man got killed of their own. why he let kill animals with him? NO Compassion. User:Paapi

  • Monkeys and Snake shows also Fishes, aquariums, for our eyes, we keep birds like parrots and what about their freedom? User:Paapi
    Bhai sahib, as long as the animal is not suffering or in pain, you are providing it will a safe environment and there is nothing wrong here. Do you think they are as safe in the wild where they will be attacked by other predictors. Hari Singhtalk
    • Compassion or kindness is related to pain? when see begger we give 1 rupee in pity, and on other side we do these things User:Paapi

  • Horses khacchars?? User:Paapi
    Bhai sahib, I don't understand what you mean by "khacchars"? If it refers to carts and riksha - they see above. Hari Singhtalk

We use animals in daily lives sir ji, we do not let them live for their freedom, so compassion is not point of discussion!!!! What is compassion? is it only related to meat eating? HUMAN IS AN INCOMPASSIONATE SPECIE ON EARTH!!!!!! (paapi 15:07, 25 February 2010 (UTC))

Bhai sahib, if there is no suffering and pain suffered by the animal then in most of these cases we are providing the animal with a safe and secure environment which it would not find elsewhere in the wild - so in a way we are doing them a favour and they are helping out mankind by their service or commodity. Living independently is not something that animals understand or necessarily find essential. Domesticated animals do well; they breed well and their population grows; they do not experience any pain or suffering.
So by looking after them, breeding them and living with these animals we show compassion. However, when we breed just to kill then there is no compassion and Gurbani addresses this directly. Bhai sahib, face Gurbani directly; address all of the shabads on the article page not just 1 or 2. Also, read Bhai Gurdas's varan. Once you can challenge all these then please come back otherwise we are just touching on the side issues and not going to the main and central point. Hari Singhtalk

  • We shout for right to freedom, but no freedom for animals, we nourish them, why don't we bind our children with KHUTA? paapi

Bhai sahib, Also please read articles on Compassion and Where is your compassion to see the importance of this virtue.
Kind regards, Hari Singhtalk 03:47, 26 February 2010 (UTC)


At End

  • I feel the same now that Meat have No Significance, we are Killing animal for our Hunger, similar way we use animals for our needs. SO if we are using animals for all needs without taking care of their freedom then what compassion? we are growing plants and nourish them too for our needs. Human is brilliant specie who are provided with such body that can digest varieties of food. Why we are not provided with same structure as cow or lion, is god foolish? we are omnivorous, god knows humans. The Sarav sareshat specie.

    Hari Singh Ji, Now answer this please, I have compassion for plants but not animals(chicken, goat etc). My Inner eyes can feel pain of plants but not animals, My Ridai can feel pain for lactobacilius in curd, i can feel bacterias in water, and i have compassion for those. what should i do? Give me interpretation of Gopal SIngh, Manmohan SIngh for that or acc. to Gurbani. PLEASE (paapi 05:20, 26 February 2010 (UTC))

@Jelly

If you have so compassion for plants then don't take them, it would be a Sin. You will go to Hell. you will remain entangled in Maya. Eat other foods. and what do you mean meat have no significance? It have significance for Eaters, their are many nutrients in meat too, which help human body. Soldeirs take it, even patients take it(all will not go to hell). Doctors recommended to many.

Hari Singh ji is right at his own place. He feel pity when someone kill Chicken. So according to his thought he start extracting out Tuks from Gurbani. But Meat have no significance as per gurbani. Some lines in Gurbani point to ""Killing on name of God"". This was fake practice of Qazis and some kali bhagats that god demanded bali and we give to them. So they kill them on name of god. Hari Ji is just using the meaning translated by some english authors. At Some places Murdar word is used for carcases, but whole Bhavarth of line is something different for that one have to understand previous stanzas and next one. One should have knowledge of history too to interpret gurbani well.

Hari Singh ji pointed good lines in favour of compassion. He indirectly said that he have compassion for those and his inner eyes feel kindness toward them. Remember when someone conscious do not allow it is better not to take such food. But if your conscious allow you can take. Food have no significance with Spirit. Gurbani says that Without God's name VEGie or NON Vegie both will thrown at same place. But remember brother do not become slave of taste, weather Meat or Cheese or Mushroom etc. People become slave of Vegie food too and Non Vegie food too. Becoming Slave of Taste buds is too Bad, it remain you entangle in Maya. I have seen some NON Veg takers who are good sikhs too. i have seen those people who can't control saliva after watching chikken tikka. That's Bad same in other case.

Remember Guru Sahib wrote very nice lines on Spiritual Food related to body food:

ਗਿਆਨ੝ ਗ੝ੜ੝ ਸਾਲਾਹ ਮੰਡੇ ਭਉ ਮਾਸ੝ ਆਹਾਰ੝ ॥ So make spiritual wisdom your molasses, the Praise of God your bread, and the Fear of God the meat you eat.

ਨਾਨਕ ਇਹ੝ ਭੋਜਨ੝ ਸਚ੝ ਹੈ ਸਚ੝ ਨਾਮ੝ ਆਧਾਰ੝ ॥੨॥ O Nanak, this is the true food; let the True Name be your only Support. ||2||


ਗ੝ਣ ਮੰਡੇ ਕਰਿ ਸੀਲ੝ ਘਿਉ ਸਰਮ੝ ਮਾਸ੝ ਆਹਾਰ੝ Make virtue your bread, good conduct the ghee, and modesty the meat to eat.

ਗ੝ਰਮ੝ਖਿ ਪਾਈਝ ਨਾਨਕਾ ਖਾਧੈ ਜਾਹਿ ਬਿਕਾਰ ॥੧॥ As Gurmukh, these are obtained, O Nanak; partaking of them, one's sins depart. ||1||


One can easiy differentiate what is Food of Spirit. Do take it.

Take Care (Lucky 12:31, 26 February 2010 (UTC))

Please add your signature while posting

--Dilpreet Singh 14:50, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

Khalsa ji , Your Discussion is not appropriable , any new entry/like me will be unable to understand Who is speak, What? Please be requested maintain discipline And mark your signature while posting and please edit all your post you posted.

Gurfateh ji

Maintain discipline (To: All)

Dilpreet Singh ji, Waheguru ji ka Khalsa, Waheguru ji ki Fateh

Many thanks for your comments which are perfectly sound. It is always best to start a new section for your replies as this makes it easy to follow the discussion. I know that it means a little extra work in copying bits from the previous section but it does make it easy to follow the logic if it is done in the proper way.

Unfortunately, the discussion has become a little jumbled as I wrongly thought that we would not be engaged in this for too long. Some improvements have been done but we may need to revisit this again. Gurfateh ji, Hari Singhtalk 01:22, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

The End! (To: Paapi)

Khalsa ji (paapi),

You said "I feel the same now that Meat have No Significance, we are Killing animal for our Hunger, similar way we use animals for our needs."

If you feel that taking the life of a being is the same as using its labour then may God save you and grant you His Bakshish. As you know we all work for our employers; they use our labour as they need our skills but they cannot take our life! There is a big difference in using someone's body for some work and killing the body. Please think about this carefully. I can employ a labourer to move bricks from A to B for 8 hours but I cannot take his life! If we follow your logic, Bhai sahib, there is no difference in using someone's body or killing the body!

You continued to say: "SO if we are using animals for all needs without taking care of their freedom then what compassion?"

Bhai sahib, when most people use horses or cows for either their services or for a product, then normally they look after the animal so that the animal continues to provide the benefit. Freedom: When we have to work from 9am until 5pm, our freedom is restricted; do we complain? No, because our employer provides for us. Similarly, the animal provides a service/goods to its owner in return for certain benefits in return. When we kill the animal what do we provide for the animal? Do we pay compensation to its children? No we don't.

When we use animals for their services, in return we normally give something in return - we provide shelter; we provide food; we provide medical care; we provide affection, etc.

Regarding your comments "Human is brilliant specie who are provided with such body that can digest varieties of food. Why we are not provided with same structure as cow or lion, is god foolish? we are omnivorous, god knows humans." - please see article here; This disagrees with your analysis in a scientific way; also Bhai Sahib listen to Bhai Guriqbal Singh when he explains that meat-eaters lick water when drinking and veggies use the breath to suck the water. How do you drink water? Like a dog or like a cow?

Bhai sahib, you have asked me to reply to the question regarding your compassion - you say that you "...have compassion for plants but not animals", then if you are a manmukh follow your mind but if you are Gurmukh then follow the hukam of the Guru. As a manmukh you will please your mind and suffer later; as a Gurmukh you will suffer now but have bliss later. Bhai sahib take your pick! Kind regards; Guru sada kirpa karan sarbat tah, Hari Singhtalk 02:16, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

To: Harpreet

Veer Ji, Guru Nanak said Pehlan Pani Jeyo hai, It means all organisams which are attached with water are living wether plants or animals. Hari SIngh said that i see with my eyes the pain so i do not take it. but one thing i want to mention:

1) Jithey Chetna hundi hai rabb uthey hunda hai, due to this reason God is not in Non Living things, if he is then Idol worship would not be bad. 2) Chetna is their in plants as quoted by Hari Singh, thats why they recite God's name. Reciting God's name doesn't mean they have some Waheguru Mantra it means they follow Hukam. 3) So when the plants are killed they too bear pain, but veg eaters will never understand their pain because they are not able to see so. 4) Chetna microorganisams, animals plants teena vich hundi hai. So how could our GUru say to kill ones chetna to feed your hunger?? 5) Point of Compassion is false as compassion is related to Killing for Veg people. When they snatch the right of freedom of animal they do not feel compassion. I could not see horse used as carts. i feel bad when i see dog's chained. Human is thats why most incompassionate. 6) If all Veg will Go to Heaven and NON Veg will Go to Hell. I would prefer to be a NON Vegetarian + i will concentrate on Gyan/Dhyan too. 7) Bujho, Vicharo - these words are said by gurbani on various places. But we love to prove our point.

I also find the same thing that there is no significance, as i read few lines which are used by Vaishnavs and pundits before and now sant samaj, those lines have no relation with eating meat (confirmed by Prof Sahib singh etc) (paapi 05:03, 27 February 2010 (UTC))

To : Hari SIngh

  • Eating meat or NOn veg is not related to Religions. These are not related to Paap and Punn. This is our interpretations.
  • You provide food and shelter because you want to use them.
  • For your vegie food millions of pests are killed, we kill mosquitos too for our survival how cheap we are? Why you spray to crops? for eating one jeev you kill millions jeev to live? Why
  • If that article was true then why i am able to digest it? and it help for my growth. All Soldiers, Body builders are taking and never vomit. This is analysis, analysis might be there on other side too.
  • Ok I have COmpassion for Plants and I Am MANMUKH? Compassion is such a great thing, a great virtue,acc. to you and you have mentioned various lines for compassion and my compassion is nothing, your compassion is great. God said to have compassion with only ANimalia kingdomm but no compassion should be there for Plants, Protista, Monera, Fungi kingdoms, where it is written?. Thats Great!!!. Sir my compassion will remain for plants. (paapi 05:03, 27 February 2010 (UTC))

To: Jelly

Yup, i am also saying GYAN DHYAN is aim, Spiritual Diet of sikh not this worldly diet. Diet is upto feed oneself for nice health. But if you fight on it then maas maas kar moorahk jhagde, gyan dhyan nahi janey. Some Hinduish thinkings are prevalent in Sikh Kaum. People get baptism without knowing what it is, which make Panj Kakkar equal to wearing Janeu. Today Maximum Sikhs are having Janeu in form of Panj Kakkar. They have made NEM. There is no NEM in Gurmat. Today people do not know What is Khalsa and Khalsa Fauj.

  • How you feel Pain in plants? i think you feel because GUru Granth Sahib proves them organism
  • Person Eats Veg or NON VEG, if he will not have Gyan of God and Dhyan of God. BOTH WILL RESIDE IN HELL(this world). same thing as you said Don't ecome slave of Taste buds.


(Lucky 13:09, 27 February 2010 (UTC))

Paapi ji

Bhai sahib,

Point 1

You said "Eating meat or NOn veg is not related to Religions. These are not related to Paap and Punn. This is our interpretations." This is your interpretation I don't understand why you say "our". You are correct if you say this is your interpretation. However, if you have an open mind and read the following lines which are in very simple Punjabi - "ਕਬੀਰ ਭਾਂਗ ਮਾਛ੝ਲੀ ਸ੝ਰਾ ਪਾਨਿ ਜੋ ਜੋ ਪ੝ਰਾਨੀ ਖਾਂਹਿ ॥ ਤੀਰਥ ਬਰਤ ਨੇਮ ਕੀਝ ਤੇ ਸਭੈ ਰਸਾਤਲਿ ਜਾਂਹਿ ॥੨੩੩॥ kabeer bhaaNg maachhulee suraa paan jo jo paraanee khaaNhi. tirath barat naym kee-ay tay sabhai rasaatal jaaNhi. ॥233॥ Kabeer, those mortals who consume marijuana, fish and wine - no matter what pilgrimages, fasts and rituals they follow, they will all go to hell. ॥233॥ " (SGGS p 1377). Kabir ji says - "Bhang", "Machlee" and "Sura paan" which I hope you will agree mean the following:

Bhai sahib, it is a fact that the above line speaks about eating. The word "khaya" or (Gurmukhi: ਖਾਂਹਿ) means to eat. It certainly then follows that eating has a consequence in Sikhi. You can clearly see from this tuk that eating has a definite consequence in Sikhi and is relevant to Gurmat and Gurbani. Having read this tuk you cannot continue saying that 'eating' has no consequence in Sikhi. This is not what the Guru's have said.

So if you wish to follow Gurmat, then clearly what you eat has an effect on your spiritual life. But no one is asking you to follow Gurmat; you are free to follow whichever path takes your fancy.

Bhai sahib, also please listen to this interesting katha: Kabir:- Bhaang Maachhli Sura Paan Jo-jo Prani Khahe (vol. 1) by Bhai Sadhu Singh Ji Dehradun Wale on this subject.

Point 2

Bhai sahib, you also say: "You provide food and shelter because you want to use them." I think you missed the point that I was making. When you use a horse or cow for work or for milk it is not a one-way thing; on the other hand, killing is just one-way. So you cannot compare the two things as equal. Bhai sahib, this is a very weak point made by you; please come up with some more serious points.

Point 3

Bhai sahib you also stated: "If that article was true then why i am able to digest it? and it help for my growth. All Soldiers, Body builders are taking and never vomit. This is analysis, analysis might be there on other side too."

Again this is a very weak point by you; you can smoke tobacco; it does not kill you instantly but it does harm to your body- it is a slow poison. Similarly, you can eat lot of 'ghee', it does not kill you but it also does harm to your arteries and eventually will kill you.

Just because you can digest or ingest or consume something, it does not mean it is OK to take it. Also, everything is not just for the body and mind; you appear to have abandoned your soul. What is good for your soul? Is killing others good for your soul?

Point 4

Bhai sahib, you finally said, "Ok I have COmpassion for Plants and I Am MANMUKH? Compassion is such a great thing, a great virtue,acc. to you and you have mentioned various lines for compassion and my compassion is nothing, your compassion is great. God said to have compassion with only ANimalia kingdomm but no compassion should be there for Plants, Protista, Monera, Fungi kingdoms, where it is written?. Thats Great!!!. Sir my compassion will remain for plants."

Bhai sahib, I am giving you the tuks from Gurbani - Read the tuk at Point 1 above; this is not my view; it is what Gurbani says. The Guru condemns the killing of fish in the above line; no where does it say in Gurbani that one should not kill plants to eat. Further, the Gurus served veggie in the Langar themselves; so what is your problem with veggie. The history of langar is well known, only veggie food is served; no meat is ever served in any Guru-ka-langar.

Further, Kabir ji says: "ਕਬੀਰ ਜੋਰੀ ਕੀਝ ਜ੝ਲਮ੝ ਹੈ...." To use force is sinful.... If you think about this carefully and in an unbiased way you will see that when one cuts a plant you do not have to force the plant to submit to the action. Now, to do the same thing on an animal, you have to force it to submit to the knife.... it will just stand there unaware of what is about to happen.

Bhai sahib, don't bring personal things into the discussion. We are discussing Gurmat - please don't say things like ...my compassion is abc and your compassion is xyz. Only God know who is treading the right path. Our task is to understand what Gurbani is saying and perhaps why it is saying these things and to think about these issues. We need to improve our understanding of Gurbani and through this understanding make efforts to follow the right path. I am happy that you have gained something from this discussion and are content with your own soul. Kind regards, Hari Singhtalk 04:09, 28 February 2010 (UTC)


Hari Singh

YOu left one point:

  • For your vegie food millions of pests are killed, we kill mosquitos too for our survival how cheap we are? Why you spray to crops? For eating one jeev we kill millions jeev to live? Why ?? Pesticides(used for vegans food), insecticides, fly killers, mosquito killers, cockroach killers etc.

ਕਬੀਰ ਜੋਰੀ ਕੀਝ ਜ੝ਲਮ੝ ਹੈ (To use force is sinful) __________

  • Who said in Langar Meat was not served?? Some Historians claims that meat was served some not. So History is not base of discussion. Because history is confusing. I have proof that GURU killed many Animals for hunt(not bec. they threat to passerbys), this is documented proof of Guru Gobind Singh in Dasam Granth, if i will give those lines than what will be your view for guru gobind singh? GUru Nanak Cooked meat (Acc. to History) do you know? read Kurukshetra sakhi. So DOn't put history.

__________

  • Now about Fish: i have heard it increases sex sort of feeling. may be due to that this is written there. still the meanings you applied there are Wrong.

__________

  • Again this is a very weak point by you; you can smoke tobacco; it does not kill you instantly but it does harm to your body- it is a slow poison. Similarly, you can eat lot of 'ghee', it does not kill you but it also does harm to your arteries and eventually will kill you. Just because you can digest or ingest or consume something, it does not mean it is OK to take it. Also, everything is not just for the body and mind; you appear to have abandoned your soul. What is good for your soul? Is killing others good for your soul?

You mean excess of everything is bad. This applicable to all.
Alcohol is taken as medicine too, do you know that?
Meat cannot harm you if you eat in moderate quantities
Is Killing Pests for your food is good for your soul?? How many pests you kill for your vegi food and fruits?
Sir Kithon Kithon bachonge?
Even Jains r trying to save many creatures (Better than you and me), but they are not able to so.

Pls do veechar on every point, don't just prove your points with your own english meanings. _______________

  • Bhai sahib, you also say: "You provide food and shelter because you want to use them." I think you missed the point that I was making. When you use a horse or cow for work or for milk it is not a one-way thing; on the other hand, killing is just one-way. So you cannot compare the two things as equal. Bhai sahib, this is a very weak point made by you; please come up with some more serious points.

Sir this point is for compassion, if you will bring KILLING in between than i can prove every person a Killer in daily life, and what he killed he do not know. Why dont you or me put cloth before mouth like Jains do. They feel organisams in air because they have Veechar. The discussion shows we have no veechar. Jains put cloth a wrong practice and what our GURUS sahid @@Paap PUNN hamrey bass [email protected]@ ______________

  • So if you wish to follow Gurmat, then clearly what you eat has an effect on your spiritual life. But no one is asking you to follow Gurmat; you are free to follow whichever path takes your fancy.

This is Biggest ANTI SIKHI THOUGHT i have ever heard from anyone.
This i heard from HIndus(Tamsik Bhojan), this i heard from ASA Ram chelas.
RSS points to Amritsar that Onion and Garlic is Tamsik and Meat is also of same category.

Listen the Audio of this GUrmukh, he is replying to that RSS person who commented this and he clearly mentioned that Spirit is not related to Food: http://www.4shared.com/file/206622274/d4fb43ea/Tamsik_bhojan-Muslim_Faqir_Ban.html

Please clear your facts about spirit and body in light of guru granth sahib, don't just stick to manmohan singh gopal singh, their translations are not nearer to spirituality. they took worldly meanings to translate. A person who apply worldly meaning to this spiritual subject will stay in confusion, will do Arth da Anarth.

Ending up here, thx (paapi 06:54, 28 February 2010 (UTC))