User talk:Ms514

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Dear Ms514 ji,

I am sorry but I have changed the article Sri Guru Granth Sahib on dance to the original form for the following reasons:

  • 1. Khalsa ji, You failed to discuss these changes on the talk page before carrying them out. This is against Sikhiwiki rules and also not acceptable as any fundamental changes to an article must first be discussed and agreed before changes are made to the article. I know you are new to SikhiWiki and I do not hold this action against you in anyway. Please, imagine the chaos that would result if all users constantly make changes directly to the article without discussion. The article would change constantly and be continuously varying, without the reader understanding the true position.
  • 2. All articles in this series are totally based on Gurbani - not on anything else - not on what SGPC says; not based on what historical records say, not on common practise, etc. The title of the article makes this very clear. With these series of articles we only follow Gurbani and Gurmat! not history, which is not always correctly recorded and not anything else.
  • 3. Not everything that the Gurus did personally is recorded correctly in historical records. Did the Guru's sit in Langar daily to take food?-Where is it written; did the Guru use a tooth brush or do Daatan? Did the Gurus use soap or oil when taking a bath? What was their favourite food; colours; etc? Did they wear cotton or silk? Did they wear leather? Did all the Guru take Laava - where is it written for each Guru and their children - which ones took laava? where is it recorded? etc. At any of the Guru's wedding, what happened - can you find the same record written by two or more sources? When did the wedding start? is it recorded? Is this correct? Is it confirmed exactly by another source? When you study these you will find huge anomalies. At SikhiWiki we cannot agree of some of the dates of birth and jotijot of the Gurus and their families; how are we going to agree on other things?
  • 4. Is a Sikh, a follower of Gurbani or of Sikh history? If you think we should follow Sikh history, then which history do we believe? One written by Muslim writers; by Udasis; by Nirankaris; by the Lubanaas; by the English? If you say Sikh writer, then which ones because many differ on some of the key issues? just look at the history of 1699. Some say there was a tent and the 5 were taken there; other say there was no tent and the 5 were in full sight of the sangat? Which one do we believe?

So Khalsa ji, we cannot rely on history. Please refer to Gurbani because that is our Guru that is what we follow here at SikhiWiki. Once you have done that then please discussion your finding on the talk/discussion page of the article.

I am sorry that I have had to revert the article but your reasons were not acceptable in the form that they were written. Just because it is not written in Sikh history that the Gurus brushed their teeth does not mean they did not do it!

Gurbani addresses the issue of dancing and singing very clearly, so please explain why you find this not acceptable. Why does the tuk which says - "Gurmukẖ gĝvai gurmukẖ nĝcẖai har sėṯī cẖiṯ lĝvaṇi­ĝ." - "The Gurmukhs sing , the Gurmukhs dance, and focus their consciousness on the Lord." does not appear to be correct to your mind. Please share this with us as we may learn from this answer.

The tuk is in simple Punjabi - "Gurmukh gavai, Gurmukh nachai" - It is so plain that in my opinion, it cannot be misinterpreted - It plainly means: "Gurmukhs sing, the Gurmukhs dance ..." or "Gurmukh sings, the Gurmukh dances ...". It cannot mean anything else.

The translation by Sant Singh appears to be correct but for the record I checked the translation by Manmohan Singh. He says, "Guru's true Sikh, sings, Guru's true Sikh dances and fixes his mind with God. Pause. " - Not materially different!

Khalsa ji, please do not feel offended by my action as these can be changed again by just pressing one button. Please share your views in terms of Gurbani so that we may learn from each other. As Sikhs we are all students and we can learn from the Guru but we can also learn from each other. I hope you will feel positive enough to discuss your position.

Yours neighbour on the Guru's path to a better place. Guru dee fateh, regards, Hari Singhtalk 03:01, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

VAHEGURU JI KA KHALSA, VAHEGURU JI KI FATEH

1) For having edited without consultation, I wil certainly apologize. The concept of a wikipedia, however, is just that - to be able to edit freely without consultation. Regardless, my apologies.

2) Gurbani and Gurmat were precisely the basis of what I had written. Did I reference anything that was not? Granted, I did say that there is no acount that has Guru Sahib or the Sikhs dancing, but do you have any reference to claim that they did? While it becomes very easy to dismiss history is one stroke, the very basis of the Sikhnet sakhis/stories for kids and our entire knowledge of Sikh history is based on those accounts. Works such as the Gur Partap Suraj Granth were also filled with fallacies, and hence why when Bhai Vir Singh Ji presented it, he also added comments in which the touchstone of Gurbani was applied. So when history is discussed, if it is indeed not in line with Sikhism, the deciding factor is Gurbani.

3) Granted, not everything was documented. But is there even one mention of dancing that can be cited in support? Did the Sikhs have no reason to celebrate when Guru Hargobind Sahib Ji was released from Gwalior? How about battle after battle won by the Sikh forces? No mention of any Sikh or Guru dancing was ever made.

4) You have requested me to explain why "plain Punjabi" of Gurmukhs singing and dancing is not correct to my mid. The information provided in the edit did just that. I would advise a re-review of it. But I shall ask it directly. If the condition is set that the Gurmukh also erases his/her ego from dancing, can you offer me an example of a gurmukh that through Bhangra/Giddha/etc. has attained the extermination of their ego? That is the condition set in Gurbani. I highly doubt the 3 Singhs and Singhnias pictured are in the estactic spiritual state of a Sufi or a whirling dervish. DO our Sikhs engage in dancing in or with God in mind, or is it to merely cerebrate worldly joys?

This may sound like a very egotistical point of view, but nevertheless, I will put it forth. Please disprove the points I have made in my edit and we will discuss it further. Gurbani verses that speak of dancing and singing also allude to meditating on God or being in a spiritual state - there is a verse that states "Lalli Nachae, Lalla Gavae, Bhagat Kare Teri Rayia" - My mother dances, my father sings, and I do Bhagti. WOuld this mean (if taken literally) that I would have to make my mother dance and my father sing to engage in Bhagti? http://www.sikhitothemax.com/page.asp?ShabadID=3661 for reference. Let us not side track the issue with discussion of history - it was a minor statement in the article's edit. Let's make the understanding of Gurbani the focus instead, for if the true support of the article is Gurbani, then by all means, it should be provable without a doubt that dancing would by a supported behavior of Gursikhs.

Consequently, I also offer you these verses:

nachiai ttapiai bhagath n hoe || By dancing and jumping, devotional worship is not performed. - 158. Please do read the whole Shabad, and understand that the historical background is that certain peoples do consider dancing a form of worship to their God/dieties - ex. Hindu sects.


nachiai ttapiai bhagath n hoe || By dancing and jumping, devotional worship is not performed. - 465. Referencing to worldly dancing.

gur kai bhaanai naachehi thaa sukh paavehi a(n)thae jam bho bhaagai || rehaao || If you dance according to the Guru's Will, you shall obtain peace, and in the end, the fear of death shall leave you. ||Pause|| - 506. Is this dance one of Bhangra/Gidda or one of other substance?

naachan soe j man sio naachai || He alone is a dancer, who dances with his mind. - 872. Perhaps the true dance - the mental Bhagti is being alluded to here? The tuk is quite specific not referring to a physical dance.

And then some... Manvinder Singh

Daas whole heartily supports your(Gurbani's) views on dancing

Dear Manvinder Singh Ji Gur Khalsa Fteh!

Hearty thanks for editing the page 'Sri Guru Granth Sahib on dance' in right direction. Unfortunately your edit got erased and now the original page has been blocked for all. The article, with your edit was perfectly in tune with the spirit of Gurbani.

Being unable to edit the original page and to get across Guru's TRUE message to all, I have initiated fresh set of pages(beginning with Sri Guru Granth Sahib on dance Page2) on the subject. Can you please join hands with me in working on the subject further?

I hope you know 'Gurmukhi' well. If that be so, it will be a big help in translating Prof Sahib Singh's work on the issue of 'dance'. Do stay in communication my email is [email protected].

--Keerat (talk) 04:43, 1 April 2014 (CDT)