User talk:Gghatore

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Hello, Sat Sri Akal, Waheguru ji ka Khalsa, Waheguru ji ki Fateh, Namastae, Salaam, ਜੀ ਆਇਆਂ ਨੂੰ: Gghatore Ji! A very warm welcome from SikhiWiki and many thanks for your contribution so far to the article Dasam Granth. I am sorry I have had to revert back the changes (deletion and/or major changes) that you made as you have given no valid reasons for your actions before making the changes.

If everyone was allowed to delete/change large parts of articles without any explanation, there would eventually be nothing of substance left for our readers to read at this website! Also, if changes are allowed to be made to large parts of the article without discussion, the whole meaning of the article can be changed by selected groups giving a biased opinion. It is important that the guidelines provided are followed when making any major change to an article.

Before any deletion or major change can take place, you must discuss any such action on the "discussion" page of the article before taking any action. This type of action has to be agreed before it can take place. Please follow this protocol in future - see more at: SikhiWiki:Deletion Guidelines

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With Waheguru's kirpa, may you always remain in Chardi kala. Many thanks, Hari Singhtalk, 23:00, 30 May 2011 (EDT)

Guru Nanak and Dasam Granth

You wrote: "Guru Nanak: Fake pictures of Guru Ji are against his teaching"

Can you please quote from the Guru Granth Sahib to show where it says that putting a picture (of the likeness of the Guru in an article) is against Sikhi?

Dasam Granth You wrote: "There are lot of writings that are not that of Guru Gobind Singh Ji but are added by other poets to create controversy among sikhs" and also "....they distorted sikh history and relegious books that it became really difficult to establish the truth. Dasam Granth is one of such book that has lot of writings that do not come even close to basic standard of sikh pricipals let alone written by Guru Ji"

Please give quotations from historic literature to substantiate your view.

Response by Gghatore, quoting Ang 864 as substantiation:

Here are some thing to substantiate:

Also Gurbani explains that the picture of the Guru is his “Word”, Gurbani, which a Sikh is to love: ਗ੝ਰ ਕੀ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਮਨ ਮਹਿ ਧਿਆਨ੝ ॥ ਗ੝ਰ ਕੈ ਸਬਦਿ ਮੰਤ੝ਰ੝ ਮਨ੝ ਮਾਨ ॥ਗ੝ਰ ਕੇ ਚਰਨ ਰਿਦੈ ਲੈ ਧਾਰਉ ॥ ਗ੝ਰ੝ ਪਾਰਬ੝ਰਹਮ੝ ਸਦਾ ਨਮਸਕਾਰਉ ॥1॥"Meditate on the image (i.e. enshrine the feet) of the Guru within your mind. Let your mind accept the Word of the Guru's Shabad, and His Mantra (as the highest and pure Mantras). (The Guru’s Shabad is the Guru’s image), enshrine (this) image of the Guru Guru's feet within your heart. (Recognizing the Guru as Waheguru’s roop, image) bow in humility forever before the Guru, the Supreme Lord God. ||1||"(Ang 864)

Reply by Hari Singh

Just to avoid doubt, I have included the full shabad below:

ਗੋਂਡ ਮਹਲਾ ੫ ॥

ਗ੝ਰ ਕੀ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਮਨ ਮਹਿ ਧਿਆਨ੝ ॥ ਗ੝ਰ ਕੈ ਸਬਦਿ ਮੰਤ੝ਰ੝ ਮਨ੝ ਮਾਨ ॥ ਗ੝ਰ ਕੇ ਚਰਨ ਰਿਦੈ ਲੈ ਧਾਰਉ ॥ ਗ੝ਰ੝ ਪਾਰਬ੝ਰਹਮ੝ ਸਦਾ ਨਮਸਕਾਰਉ ॥੧॥

ਮਤ ਕੋ ਭਰਮਿ ਭ੝ਲੈ ਸੰਸਾਰਿ ॥ ਗ੝ਰ ਬਿਨ੝ ਕੋਇ ਨ ਉਤਰਸਿ ਪਾਰਿ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥

ਭੂਲੇ ਕਉ ਗ੝ਰਿ ਮਾਰਗਿ ਪਾਇਆ ॥ ਅਵਰ ਤਿਆਗਿ ਹਰਿ ਭਗਤੀ ਲਾਇਆ ॥ ਜਨਮ ਮਰਨ ਕੀ ਤ੝ਰਾਸ ਮਿਟਾਈ ॥ ਗ੝ਰ ਪੂਰੇ ਕੀ ਬੇਅੰਤ ਵਡਾਈ ॥੨॥

ਗ੝ਰ ਪ੝ਰਸਾਦਿ ਊਰਧ ਕਮਲ ਬਿਗਾਸ ॥ ਅੰਧਕਾਰ ਮਹਿ ਭਇਆ ਪ੝ਰਗਾਸ ॥ ਜਿਨਿ ਕੀਆ ਸੋ ਗ੝ਰ ਤੇ ਜਾਨਿਆ ॥ ਗ੝ਰ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਤੇ ਮ੝ਗਧ ਮਨ੝ ਮਾਨਿਆ ॥੩॥

ਗ੝ਰ੝ ਕਰਤਾ ਗ੝ਰ੝ ਕਰਣੈ ਜੋਗ੝ ॥ ਗ੝ਰ੝ ਪਰਮੇਸਰ੝ ਹੈ ਭੀ ਹੋਗ੝ ॥ ਕਹ੝ ਨਾਨਕ ਪ੝ਰਭਿ ਇਹੈ ਜਨਾਈ ॥ ਬਿਨ੝ ਗ੝ਰ ਮ੝ਕਤਿ ਨ ਪਾਈਝ ਭਾਈ ॥੪॥੫॥੭॥

Gond, Fifth Mehl:

Meditate on the image of the Guru within your mind; let your mind accept the Word of the Guru's Shabad, and His Mantra.
Enshrine the Guru's feet within your heart. Bow in humility forever before the Guru, the Supreme Lord God. (1)

Let no one wander in doubt in the world. Without the Guru, no one can cross over. (1)(Pause)

The Guru shows the Path to those who have wandered off. He leads them to renounce others, and attaches them to devotional worship of the Lord.
He obliterates the fear of birth and death. The glorious greatness of the Perfect Guru is endless. (2)

By Guru's Grace, the inverted heart-lotus blossoms forth,and the Light shines forth in the darkness.
Through the Guru, know the One who created you. By the Guru's Mercy, the foolish mind comes to believe. (3)

The Guru is the Creator; the Guru has the power to do everything. The Guru is the Transcendent Lord; He is, and always shall be.
Says Nanak, God has inspired me to know this. Without the Guru, liberation is not obtained, O Siblings of Destiny. (4)(5)(7)

Gond mėhlĝ 5.

Gur kī mūraṯ man mėh ḝẖi▫ĝn. Gur kai sabaḝ manṯar man mĝn. Gur ke cẖaran riḝai lai ḝẖĝra▫o. Gur pĝrbarahm saḝĝ namaskĝra▫o. 1

Maṯ ko bẖaram bẖulai sansĝr. Gur bin ko▫e na uṯras pĝr. (1) rahĝ▫o.

Bẖūle ka▫o gur mĝrag pĝ▫i▫ĝ. Avar ṯi▫ĝg har bẖagṯī lĝ▫i▫ĝ. Janam maran kī ṯarĝs mitĝ▫ī. Gur pūre kī be▫anṯ vadĝ▫ī. 2

Gur parsĝḝ ūraḝẖ kamal bigĝs. Anḝẖkĝr mėh bẖa▫i▫ĝ pargĝs. Jin kī▫ĝ so gur ṯe jĝni▫ĝ. Gur kirpĝ ṯe mugaḝẖ man mĝni▫ĝ. 3

Gur karṯĝ gur karṇai jog. Gur parmesar hai bẖī hog. Kaho Nĝnak parabẖ ihai janĝ▫ī. Bin gur mukaṯ na pĝ▫ī▫ai bẖĝ▫ī. (4)(5)(7)

We use images to remember people in our history; we see pictures of many famous personalities like Giani Sant Singh Maskeen, Baba Puran Singh, etc. Putting their picture does not mean that we are worshipping them. The practise of worshipping pictures and statutes is not supported by Gurbani. But using picture to show the likeness of a person as an aid to our memory cannot be treated in the same way. Putting pictures in an article does not equate to worshipping the picture! Or worshipping the article!

Unfortunately, I think you may have fallen into the wrong impression that any picture of the Guru is not allowed in Sikhi. Most Sikhs have pictures of their late passed away relatives. This does not mean that we are "worshipping" these relations but that we just have these pictures there to remember them or even as a sign to our respect or love for them.

In this Shabad, Guru Nanak says "Says Nanak, God has inspired me to know this. Without the Guru, liberation is not obtained, O Siblings of Destiny." Clearly, the Guru referred to here is not the Guru in human body but the spiritual guide of Guru Nanak.

What I wanted you to show me was a clear reference to the concept of using picture for articles; not for worship. We do not worship the pictures in our articles. They are there as an aid for our learning.

At SikhiWiki, we promoted the reading of Gurbani and so we have all the main popular Banis with audio files and translations so the users can recite and understand the meaning of Gurbani. We do not worship the picture in our articles just as we do not worship the text in the articles!

I hope this helps to clarify our position; if not, please do not hesitate to write again. Kind regards, Hari Singhtalk 09:45, 1 June 2011 (EDT)