Talk:Langar 2

Keep it simple, we are all equal

"Fools wrangle over meat" -Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji

I'm sure it everyone has heard that quote. I'm quite dissapointed that some people have chosen to use quotes and their own understanding to further their own ego and motives. Look, some of us eat meat and some of us don't. It really does not matter to me or you, or anyone else on how others should eat. We get so deep into this debate, when there is not debate at all - just live your life your own way, and focus on more important facets of sikhi.

The vegetarian section of sikhiwiki and the langar page is pro-veggie, it should be pro nothing. The quotes provided are taken one by one, as if somone picked out the stuff they wanted to hear. If they read the full message, they would see that most of the qoutes deel with rich people and the world in general. So instead of picking and choosing, and being pro something, just give a balanced view on this subject.

on a side not, it's been well known that people will follow something that they think will make them higher. Some peopel think not-eating meat will attain more spiritual knowledge and "status" This goes directly against what sikhi tells. We should be respecting others for who they and not trying to create divisions and castes.

The main reason why we have meat free langar was because it's mainly to do with equality - since soem people naturaly don't eat meat while others do. It makes for a simple langar, it should remain out of langar provided the majority of the sangat and area the temple is in eats meat. And it does not have to be indian food or similar, bananas, fruits, soup, salad can all be served.

It's amazing to see how people can full into needless rituals and blind debates - just to follow something they can touch and see.

Keep things simple and remember equality

-LC

My Reply

Dear Lionchild

I am extremely happy that you are following a very noble and pure spiritual path and I pray that the Lord always guides you on this pure and honourable path. "O Sikhs of the Guru, O friends, walk on the Guru's Path." (page 667)

Importance of Understanding Gurbani

It is very important to understand the true meaning of Gurbani – Guru ji remind us: "Listen to the Shabad, and understand the Shabad, and lovingly focus your consciousness on the True One". (p429) and also "You may listen to the Shaastras, but you do not understand, and so you wander from door to door." (p492) So to listen, understand and follow Gurbani is very important to a Sikh. If you listen to the Bani and you do not understand it, you will go from one place to another forever. It appears from these tuks that our Guru would like us to focus our minds on Gurbani and study and understand it. The Guru also tells us "One who reads, while attached to duality, does not understand." (p127) So it is important to be attached to the Naam & Guru and not to Maya and the rest of transient worldly things – Be detached from the worldly illusion – ie be a Gurmukh and follow the word of the Guru and don't be a Manmukh and just blindly follow your desires and your mind.

Argument of any sort discouraged

I accept that the Guru does not promote argument as a spiritual way forward - Maharaj says: "Without understanding, the world argues in falsehood." (p 224) Does this imply that a Sikh should not discussion anything? – Especially Gurbani and the meaning of certain passages that they do not understand? Also our Guru tells us: "Only fools argue over Maya." (p 366) Remember that the entire world is engrossed in "Maya". Regarding Maya, Maharaj says: "Prosperity, adversity, property and wealth are just Maya" (page 486); "Gazing on his children and his wife, the man is pleased and attached to Maya." (p1249); and also "The various sorts of pleasures, powers, joys, beauty, canopies, cooling fans and thrones to sit on - the foolish, ignorant and blind are engrossed in these things. O Nanak, desire for Maya is just a dream ||1||". (p707) So should we not discuss any of these things? What does this all mean?

I don't think that Sikhi is about arguments and conflicts but it is about togetherness, discussion and understanding based of the teachings of our Gurus. It is an inclusive procedure and we have to approach it as "students" and "disciples". None of us is perfect, otherwise we would not be here – we would have been liberated!! However, in our understanding and discussions, we have to keep Gurbani and the message of our Gurus as the foundation. Most answers can be found there. We are the student, the Guru is the teacher!!

Study, Ponder, Reflect, Understand and become Aware

"Those who contemplate the Word of the Guru's Shabad are filled with the Fear of God." (p 35) Maharaj asks us to contemplate the Guru's Shabad or Gurbani – to me this means that to ponder, study, consider, chew over, discuss and obtain a clear understanding is a must for a Sikh – We need to get to the true essence of what the Guru is saying. The Guru says: "Study the Word of the Shabad, O beloveds. It is your anchoring support in life and in death." (p916) – To study Gurbani through whatever means to obtain a complete understanding is a must for the Sikh. Without understand, the reading of holy text is a complete waste. Bani says: "That Pandit is called Gurmukh, who imparts understanding to his students." (p938) How can understanding be obtained without a discussion, study or consideration? In my opinion, discussion of Gurbani to obtain a deeper understand of its meaning is an essential way of learning. I have learnt about Sikhi by discussing the Guru's message with my Sikh friends. A discussion to understand a point is not always an argument!!! Most of the time, the discussion is to understand the subtleties of the Guru's message and by understanding one can become more aware and conscious of the real message of our Guru.

Without Understanding, You are doomed

"Bound in worldly affairs and entanglements, the blind one does not understand; he acts like a murderous butcher. But if he meets with the True Guru, then he comprehends and understands, and his mind is imbued with true spiritual wisdom. ||8||" (p 1274) If you do not understand the Guru's word, you will act like a "murderous butcher". Only with true love for God and his creation will you have the necessary dedication to comprehend and understand the deep words of the Lord. If you do not understand and become aware of the message, all that studying and reciting is wasted. "Reading and studying, the religious scholars argue and debate; but without understanding, there is no peace." (p570) Understanding is King! Now, look at the first part of this tuk – "Reading and studying, the religious scholars argue and debate" – Maharaj doesn't says this is wrong but if they do not understand, then they will not find peace.

Returning to your Quotation

Now returning to your quotation "Fools wrangle over meat" is from the line in Gurbani "The fools argue about flesh and meat, but they know nothing about meditation and spiritual wisdom." (page 1289). What do you understand from this tuk?

The tuk is: "ਮਾਸ੝ ਮਾਸ੝ ਕਰਿ ਮੂਰਖ੝ ਝਗੜੇ ਗਿਆਨ੝ ਧਿਆਨ੝ ਨਹੀ ਜਾਣੈ ॥ maas maas kar moorakh jhagrhay gi-aan Dhi-aan nahee jaanai."

• Maas means flesh, meat
• Kar = do (utter)
• Moorakh = idiot
• jhagrhay = quarrel
• gi-aan Dhi-aan = spiritual knowledge / meditation / divine wisdom
• nahee = don't / no
• jaanai = know / comprehend

My translation is: "The idiot knows nothing about meditation or spiritual wisdom but agues about meat and flesh."

Tell me what this tuk conveys to you about the Guru's message and then we can go deeper into this topic.

Questions?

You said in your post: "I'm quite dissapointed that some people have chosen to use quotes and their own understanding to further their own ego and motives." If you have a different understanding of Gurbani, please let me know – All the quotes are from Gurbani and nowhere does it say that it relates to rich or poor people only or any other section. Please help me with any Gurbani that you are referring to so I may also understand this point.

Later, you said: "… some of us eat meat and some of us don't." Well, that's fine. Some of us cut our hair others don't; Some of us tell lies and others don't; some of us show compassion while others don't; some of us slander and other don't; some of us are slaves of the Five Evils other are not; some of us are committed to Sewa others are not? Isn't it important to know what Gurbani tell us about these things? Isn't it important to a Sikh to understand the message of the Guru regarding these issues? We all have our problems but that does not mean that we should ignore what Gurbani tells us about these things. None of us are perfect, are we? Only the Lord knows who is a good person and who isn't. I may eat meat but be very truthful and charitable. Is this a better person than someone who slanders, is lazy, a liar but does not eat meat? Only Waheguru knows?

You said in your post "… just live your life your own way, and focus on more important facets of sikhi." What are these more important facets of Sikhi? Isn't what you eat an important facet, my brother?

When you kill an animal, doesn't any compassion come to your mind? Is there any Daya (Compassion) in your heart for the animal which you kill just for the brief taste tingling of your little tongue? Is it not wrong to make any being suffer just for your eating habits? As I said to User:lecturer Let us just look at one tuk, which is in simple Punjabi:

• Kabir ji clearly states: (p1350) "ਜਉ ਸਭ ਮਹਿ ਝਕ੝ ਖ੝ਦਾਇ ਕਹਤ ਹਉ ਤਉ ਕਿਉ ਮ੝ਰਗੀ ਮਾਰੈ ॥੧॥ ja-o sabh meh ayk khudaa-ay kahat ha-o ta-o ki-o murgee maarai. ||1|| You say that the One Lord is in all, so why do you kill chickens? ||1||"

This is simple Punjabi so all of us should be able to understand this simple tuk with 11 words. Kabir ji asks us: "Why do you kill Murgee (chicken)?" Now what's your answer to this statement? Only by dealing with all these tuks that I have outlined previously can we move forward. If you disagree, give us the reason and support it with Gurbani. The GoVeg is the logo of PETA. They are a charity organisation and was "…..founded in 1980, PETA is dedicated to establishing and protecting the rights of all animals. PETA operates under the simple principle that animals are not ours to eat, wear, experiment on, or use for entertainment." These are principles in keeping with Gurbani. Compassion is an important part of Sikhi – it appears 190 times in the Srigranth.org site.

What about the logos of the other sites on this database? Are you going to remove those as well? See Amrit World, The Centennial Foundation, Franco Sikh, etc. Should we discriminate against non-Sikhs sites?

You correctly say: "Some peopel think not-eating meat will attain more spiritual knowledge and "status" This goes directly against what sikhi tells. We should be respecting others for who they and not trying to create divisions and castes." We are not in the business of making people "higher" or "lower" – only God can do that but remember, its our job to understand the Guru's word.

You also said: "The main reason why we have meat free langar was because it's mainly to do with equality" – let us see the tuks from Gurbani which support this view. I have searched and I have asked wiser Sikhs and we can't find it. Please see if you are able to find a tuk or principle from recorded history.

I have noticed a large "cut and paste" from another site. I will look at this on the next occasion.

I am grateful to you for the points that you make and I hope you accept my views as my personal reflection of how and what I see in Gurbani. I hope I am not distorting the Word of our Guru. Please tell me if it is and point me in the right direction!

Keep in Chardikala and may Waheguru be with you always. --Hari Singh 20:39, 24 July 2006 (CDT)

Quotes in perspective

posted: Lionchild sikhi

Well i will supply the articel in which it is very important to read. while it does not say that you can't be vegetarian, it esentially says that people who eat meat are just as much sikhi as those who arent. and that this dicision is up to the individual - not someone else.

Your not wrong, it's just your choice you don't eat meat, now with that said, we should be respectful of other peoples diets.

SO our sikhiwiki should have a balanced view and not be pro-veggie or pro meat. I'm not either, i eat veggies too. So how can i be pro=meat? Here's Randip's Singh ji's post:

FOOLS WHO WRANGLE OVER FLESH

FOREWARD

The authors of this paper (one a vegetarian and one meat eating Sikh) wrangled hard with their own common sense which told them, “don’t be a fool and start wrangling over an issue which our great Guru’s dismissed as not worthy of discussion”. We did however feel as amateur Sikh Historians and commentators on Sikh affairs that we should use our knowledge and experience to clarify what is such a controversial issue. This essay out to be objective as possible but we ourselves probably taking one side as we waded through the arguments and counter arguments produced by vegetarian and meat eating Sikhs. One thing that has incensed us is the use of incorrect History and mistranslation to back up arguments. It was these points that we felt needed clarification and we hope the reader will find that this essay does that.

MISTRANSLATION AND MISREPRESENTATION OF THE SRI GURU GRANTH SAHIB JI

Introduction

Some of the tukhs of the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji that are often mistranslated are as follows:

1. Those mortals who consume marijuana, flesh and wine - no matter what pilgrimages, fasts and rituals they follow, they will all go to hell. (SGGS p1377)

2. You kill living beings and worship lifeless things, at your very last moment, You will suffer terrible pain. (SGGS p332)

3. Do not say that the Vedas are false, false are those who do not reflect. If in all is one god, then why does one kill the hen ? (SGGS p1350)

4. Bhagat Kabir says, that the best food is eating kichree (daal/lentils) where nectar sweet is the salt. You eat hunted meat, but which animal is willing to have their head cut ? (SGGS p1374)

5. In this dark age of Kali Yuga, people have faces like dogs; They eat rotting dead bodies for food. (SGGS p1242

6. Falsehood is my dagger and to eat by defrauding is meat. (Guru Nanak Dev Ji. Sri Raaj p24)

7. Avarice is a dog, falsehood the sweeper and cheating the eating of meat. (Guru Nanak Dev Ji. Sri Raag p15)

Let us analyse each one of these one by one.

Mortals who consume marijuana, flesh and wine

1. Those mortals who consume marijuana, flesh and wine - no matter what pilgrimages, fasts and rituals they follow, they will all go to hell. (SGGS p1337)

In this instance let us firstly add the Gurmukhi with the English:

mukat padaarath paa-ee-ai thaak na avghat ghaat. ||231|| He obtains the treasure of liberation, and the difficult road to the Lord is not blocked. ||231||

kabeer ayk gharhee aaDhee gharee aaDhee hooN tay aaDh. Kabeer, whether is is for an hour, half an hour, or half of that,

bhagtan saytee gostay jo keenay so laabh. ||232|| whatever it is, it is worthwhile to speak with the Holy. ||232||

kabeer bhaaNg maachhulee suraa paan jo jo paraanee khaaNhi. Kabeer, those mortals who consume marijuana, fish and wine -

tirath barat naym kee-ay tay sabhai rasaatal jaaNhi. ||233|| no matter what pilgrimages, fasts and rituals they follow, they will all go to hell. ||233||

neechay lo-in kar raha-o lay saajan ghat maahi. Kabeer, I keep my eyes lowered, and enshrine my Friend within my heart.

sabh ras khayla-o pee-a sa-o kisee lakhaava-o naahi. ||234|| I enjoy all pleasures with my Beloved, but I do not let anyone else know. ||234||

aath jaam cha-usath gharee tu-a nirkhat rahai jee-o. Twenty-four hours a day, every hour, my soul continues to look to You, O Lord.

neechay lo-in ki-o kara-o sabh ghat daykh-a-u pee-o. ||235|| Why should I keep my eyes lowered? I see my Beloved in every heart. ||235||

sun sakhee pee-a meh jee-o basai jee-a meh basai ke pee-o. Listen, O my companions: my soul dwells in my Beloved, and my Beloved dwells in my soul.

jee-o pee-o boojha-o nahee ghat meh jee-o ke pee-o. ||236|| I realize that there is no difference between my soul and my Beloved; I cannot tell whether my soul or my Beloved dwells in my heart. ||236||

kabeer baaman guroo hai jagat kaa bhagtan kaa gur naahi. Kabeer, the Brahmin may be the guru of the world, but he is not the Guru of the devotees.

arajh urajh kai pach moo-aa chaara-o baydahu maahi. ||237|| He rots and dies in the perplexities of the four Vedas. ||237||

har hai khaaNd rayt meh bikhree haathee chunee na jaa-ay. The Lord is like sugar, scattered in the sand; the elephant cannot pick it up.

kahi kabeer gur bhalee bujhaa-ee keetee ho-ay kai khaa-ay. ||238|| Says Kabeer, the Guru has given me this sublime understanding: become an ant, and feed on it. ||238||

kabeer ja-o tuhi saaDh piramm kee sees kaat kar go-ay. Kabeer, if you desire to play the game of love with the Lord, then cut off your head, and make it into a ball.

khaylat khaylat haal kar jo kichh ho-ay ta ho-ay. ||239|| Lose yourself in the play of it, and then whatever will be, will be. ||239||

kabeer ja-o tuhi saaDh piramm kee paakay saytee khayl. Kabeer, if you desire to play the game of love with the Lord, play it with someone with committment.

kaachee sarsa-uN payl kai naa khal bha-ee na tayl. ||240|| Pressing the unripe mustard seeds produces neither oil nor flour. ||240||

dhooNdhat doleh anDh gat ar cheenat naahee sant. Searching, the mortal stumbles like a blind person, and does not recognize the Saint.

kahi naamaa ki-o paa-ee-ai bin bhagtahu bhagvant. ||241|| Says Naam Dayv, how can one obtain the Lord God, without His devotee? ||241||

har so heeraa chhaad kai karahi aan kee aas. Forsaking the Diamond of the Lord, the mortals put their hopes in another.

tay nar dojak jaahigay sat bhaakhai ravidaas. ||242|| Those people shall go to hell; Ravi Daas speaks the Truth. ||242||

kabeer ja-o garihu karahi ta Dharam kar naahee ta kar bairaag. Kabeer, if you live the householder's life, then practice righteousness; otherwise, you might as well retire from the world.

bairaagee banDhan karai taa ko bado abhaag. ||243|| If someone renounces the world, and then gets involved in worldly entanglements, he shall suffer terrible misfortune. ||243||

Taking out the sentence we see

kabeer bhaaNg maachhulee suraa paan jo jo paraanee khaaNhi. Kabeer, those mortals who consume marijuana, fish and wine -

tirath barat naym kee-ay tay sabhai rasaatal jaaNhi. ||233|| no matter what pilgrimages, fasts and rituals they follow, they will all go to hell. ||233||

Firstly note that maachlee is not flesh, but is indeed fish. The word in Punjabi for flesh is maas. Then secondly one must ask, why is there a forbidding in the consumption of fish specifically. The answer lies in reading the entire paragraph and a picture emerges. In the last two lines the statement is made:

kabeer ja-o garihu karahi ta Dharam kar naahee ta kar bairaag. Kabeer, if you live the householder's life, then practice righteousness; otherwise, you might as well retire from the world.

bairaagee banDhan karai taa ko bado abhaag. ||243|| If someone renounces the world, and then gets involved in worldly entanglements, he shall suffer terrible misfortune. ||243||

Now putting this in its entire context what Bhagat Kabir is actually criticising in the rich and those in power. The thrill seekers, who are addicted to their senses and those addicted to the 5 thieves. Kabir was born around the area of Benares, and was brought up in a poor Muslim weavers family. He saw the excesses of the rich around him, while the poor starved. Foods like fish and wine were associated with the rich who had an excessive disposable income. Marijuana was associated with either idol people or those who had time and money to waste. Kabir abhorred this, and this statement is a social comment about the excesses of the rich. At the end he clearly states, that those people who do their duties as householders (i.e. work hard, care for other etc) are the ones who will be liberated, and those who live by excesses will suffer. One cantherefore clearly see that this is in no way a comment about eating meat (because of mistranslation) or about avoiding certain foods (as has been misrepresented).

You kill living beings and

2. You kill living beings and worship lifeless things, at your very last moment, You will suffer terrible pain. (SGGS p332)

Again let us put this into its correct context:

ik-oNkaar satgur parsaad. One Universal Creator God. By The Grace Of The True Guru:

jeevat pitar na maanai ko-oo moo-ayN siraaDh karaahee. He does not honor his ancestors while they are alive, but he holds feasts in their honor after they have died.

pitar bhee bapuray kaho ki-o paavahi ka-oo-aa kookar khaahee. ||1|| Tell me, how can his poor ancestors receive what the crows and the dogs have eaten up? ||1||

mo ka-o kusal bataavhu ko-ee. If only someone would tell me what real happiness is!

kusal kusal kartay jag binsai kusal bhee kaisay ho-ee. ||1|| rahaa-o. Speaking of happiness and joy, the world is perishing. How can happiness be found? ||1||Pause||

maatee kay kar dayvee dayvaa tis aagai jee-o dayhee. Making gods and goddesses out of clay, people sacrifice living beings to them.

aisay pitar tumaaray kahee-ahi aapan kahi-aa na layhee. ||2|| Such are your dead ancestors, who cannot ask for what they want. ||2||

sarjee-o kaateh nirjee-o poojeh ant kaal ka-o bhaaree. You murder living beings and worship lifeless things; at your very last moment, you shall suffer in terrible pain.

raam naam kee gat nahee jaanee bhai doobay sansaaree. ||3|| You do not know the value of the Lord's Name; you shall drown in the terrifying world-ocean. ||3||

dayvee dayvaa poojeh doleh paarbarahm nahee jaanaa. You worship gods and goddesses, but you do not know the Supreme Lord God.

kahat kabeer akul nahee chayti-aa bikhi-aa si-o laptaanaa. ||4||1||45|| Says Kabeer, you have not remembered the Lord who has no ancestors; you are clinging to your corrupt ways. ||4||1||45||

Quite clearly when put into context this is nothing to do with meat eating. What is being alluded to is Hindu sacrificial rituals (eg Anustarani http://www.sanskrit.org/www/Rites%20...rs2.html#_ftn4) where animals were sacrificed on the funeral pyre, ancestors or to deities. Yet the Brahmins who performed these rituals were themselves devout vegetarians. This is a comment about the futility of animal sacrifices to stone idols and dead ancestors. It is a comment on hypocrisy.

Do not say that the Vedas are false

3. Do not say that the Vedas are false, false are those who do not reflect. If in all is one god, then why does one kill the hen ? (SGGS p1350)

Again, let us put this into context:

parbhaatee. Prabhaatee:

bayd katayb kahhu mat jhoothay jhoothaa jo na bichaarai. Do not say that the Vedas, the Bible and the Koran are false. Those who do not contemplate them are false.

ja-o sabh meh ayk khudaa-ay kahat ha-o ta-o ki-o murgee maarai. ||1|| You say that the One Lord is in all, so why do you kill chickens? ||1||

mulaaN kahhu ni-aa-o khudaa-ee. O Mullah, tell me: is this God's Justice?

tayray man kaa bharam na jaa-ee. ||1|| rahaa-o. The doubts of your mind have not been dispelled. ||1||Pause||

pakar jee-o aani-aa dayh binaasee maatee ka-o bismil kee-aa. You seize a living creature, and then bring it home and kill its body; you have killed only the clay.

jot saroop anaahat laagee kaho halaal ki-aa kee-aa. ||2|| The light of the soul passes into another form. So tell me, what have you killed? ||2||

ki-aa ujoo paak kee-aa muhu Dho-i-aa ki-aa maseet sir laa-i-aa. And what good are your purifications? Why do you bother to wash your face? And why do you bother to bow your head in the mosque?

ja-o dil meh kapat nivaaj gujaarahu ki-aa haj kaabai jaa-i-aa. ||3|| Your heart is full of hypocrisy; what good are your prayers or your pilgrimage to Mecca? ||3||

tooN naapaak paak nahee soojhi-aa tis kaa maram na jaani-aa. You are impure; you do not understand the Pure Lord. You do not know His Mystery.

kahi kabeer bhisat tay chookaa dojak si-o man maani-aa. ||4||4|| Says Kabeer, you have missed out on paradise; your mind is set on hell. ||4||4||

Again put into context this is a comment on the Muslim sacrifice ritual where either a goat or a chicken is kept in the confines of the home and then ritually slaughtered as obeisance to Abraham. Kabeer is mocking the futility of this ritual and saying, that why are you doing this sacrifice just to emulate God’s asking of Abraham to kill his only son? It is a futile gesture that will not sway God. Abraham was sacrificing his son to God, however all the sacrifice in this instance has achieved is destruction of the outer shell of the chicken. The soul won’t travel to God, but merely to another form. One can only understand this if one has a basic grasp of history. In this instance the person who tried to use this tukh as an anti-meat quotation was unaware of the Koranic context and had an extremely poor knowledge of Semitic history.

The best food is kichree

4. Bhagat Kabir says, that the best food is eating kichree (daal/lentils) where nectar sweet is the salt. You eat hunted meat, but which animal is willing to have their head cut ? (SGGS p1374)

Let us add this to the correct context:

oraa gar paanee bha-i-aa jaa-ay mili-o dhal kool. ||177|| The hail-stone has melted into water, and flowed into the ocean. ||177||

kabeeraa Dhoor sakayl kai puree-aa baaNDhee dayh. Kabeer, the body is a pile of dust, collected and packed together.

divas chaar ko paykhnaa ant khayh kee khayh. ||178|| It is a show which lasts for only a few days, and then dust returns to dust. ||178||

kabeer sooraj chaaNd kai udai bha-ee sabh dayh. Kabeer, bodies are like the rising and setting of the sun and the moon.

gur gobind kay bin milay palat bha-ee sabh khayh. ||179|| Without meeting the Guru, the Lord of the Universe, they are all reduced to dust again. ||179||

jah anbha-o tah bhai nahee jah bha-o tah har naahi. Where the Fearless Lord is, there is no fear; where there is fear, the Lord is not there.

kahi-o kabeer bichaar kai sant sunhu man maahi. ||180|| Kabeer speaks after careful consideration; hear this, O Saints, in your minds. ||180||

kabeer jinahu kichhoo jaani-aa nahee tin sukh need bihaa-ay. Kabeer, those who do not know anything, pass their lives in peaceful sleep.

hamhu jo boojhaa boojhnaa pooree paree balaa-ay. ||181|| But I have understood the riddle; I am faced with all sorts of troubles. ||181||

laagee chot maramm kee rahi-o kabeeraa tha-ur. ||182|| Struck by the Mystery of God, Kabeer remains silent. ||182||

kabeer chot suhaylee sayl kee laagat lay-ay usaas. Kabeer, the stroke of a lance is easy to bear; it takes away the breath.

chot sahaarai sabad kee taas guroo mai daas. ||183|| But one who endures the stroke of the Word of the Shabad is the Guru, and I am his slave. ||183||

kabeer mulaaN munaaray ki-aa chadheh saaN-ee na bahraa ho-ay. Kabeer: O Mullah, why do you climb to the top of the minaret? The Lord is not hard of hearing.

jaa kaaran tooN baaNg deh dil hee bheetar jo-ay. ||184|| Look within your own heart for the One, for whose sake you shout your prayers. ||184||

saykh sabooree baahraa ki-aa haj kaabay jaa-ay. Why does the Shaykh bother to go on pilgrimage to Mecca, if he is not content with himself?

kabeer jaa kee dil saabat nahee taa ka-o kahaaN khudaa-ay. ||185|| Kabeer, one whose heart is not healthy and whole - how can he attain his Lord? ||185||

kabeer alah kee kar bandagee jih simrat dukh jaa-ay. Kabeer, worship the Lord Allah; meditating in remembrance on Him, troubles and pains depart.

dil meh saaN-ee pargatai bujhai balantee naaN-ay. ||186|| The Lord shall be revealed within your own heart, and the burning fire within shall be extinguished by His Name. ||186||

kabeer joree kee-ay julam hai kahtaa naa-o halaal. Kabeer, to use force is tyranny, even if you call it legal.

daftar laykhaa maaNgee-ai tab ho-igo ka-un havaal. ||187|| When your account is called for in the Court of the Lord, what will your condition be then? ||187||

kabeer khoob khaanaa kheechree jaa meh amrit lon. Kabeer, the dinner of beans and rice is excellent, if it is flavored with salt.

hayraa rotee kaarnay galaa kataavai ka-un. ||188|| Who would cut his throat, to have meat with his bread? ||188||

kabeer gur laagaa tab jaanee-ai mitai moh tan taap. Kabeer, one is known to have been touched by the Guru, only when his emotional attachment and physical illnesses are eradicated.

harakh sog daajhai nahee tab har aapeh aap. ||189|| He is not burned by pleasure or pain, and so he becomes the Lord Himself. ||189||

kabeer raam kahan meh bhayd hai taa meh ayk bichaar. Kabeer, it does make a difference, how you chant the Lord's Name, 'Raam'. This is something to consider.

so-ee raam sabhai kaheh so-ee ka-utakhaar. ||190|| Everyone uses the same word for the son of Dasrath and the Wondrous Lord. ||190||

kabeer raamai raam kaho kahibay maahi bibayk. Kabeer, use the word 'Raam', only to speak of the All-pervading Lord. You must make that distinction.

ayk anaykeh mil ga-i-aa ayk samaanaa ayk. ||191|| One 'Raam' is pervading everywhere, while the other is contained only in himself. ||191||

kabeer jaa ghar saaDh na sayvee-ah har kee sayvaa naahi. Kabeer, those houses in which neither the Holy nor the Lord are served –

tay ghar marhat saarkhay bhoot baseh tin maahi. ||192|| those houses are like cremation grounds; demons dwell within them. ||192||

kabeer goongaa hoo-aa baavraa bahraa hoo-aa kaan. Kabeer, I have become mute, insane and deaf.

paavhu tay pingul bha-i-aa maari-aa satgur baan. ||193|| I am crippled - the True Guru has pierced me with His Arrow. ||193||

kabeer satgur soormay baahi-aa baan jo ayk. Kabeer, the True Guru, the Spiritual Warrior, has shot me with His Arrow.

laagat hee bhu-ay gir pari-aa paraa karayjay chhayk. ||194|| As soon as it struck me, I fell to the ground, with a hole in my heart. ||194||

kabeer nirmal boond akaas kee par ga-ee bhoom bikaar. Kabeer, the pure drop of water falls from the sky, onto the dirty ground.

At one level this is a mistranslation and at another misrepresentation of the context within which this is written:

kabeer khoob khaanaa kheechree jaa meh amrit lon. Kabeer, the dinner of beans and rice is excellent, if it is flavored with salt.

hayraa rotee kaarnay galaa kataavai ka-un. ||188|| Who would cut his throat, to have meat with his bread? ||188||

In the above Gurmukhi, there is no mention of meat whatsoever. The person who has tried to translate this has added his/her own spin .What this is actually saying is that to the follower of the Guru or one who has been touched by God a simple dish of Kheechree (lentils and rice), flavoured with salt is enough. To have something more exotic to eat you would not cut your own throat (the western equivalent would be to cut your own nose off to spite your face). In no way is this tukh anything to do with meat eating and the person who has misrepresented and mistranslated it should be held to account for his/her actions.

In KalYuga people have faces like dogs

5.In this dark age of Kali Yuga, people have faces like dogs; They eat rotting dead bodies for food. (SGGS p1242)

Again, let us put this into context:

salok mehlaa 1. Shalok, First Mehl:

kal ho-ee kutay muhee khaaj ho-aa murdaar. In this Dark Age of Kali Yuga, people have faces like dogs; they eat rotting carcasses for food.

koorh bol bol bha-ukanaa chookaa Dharam beechaar. They bark and speak, telling only lies; all thought of righteousness has left them.

jin jeevandi-aa pat nahee mu-i-aa mandee so-ay. Those who have no honor while alive, will have an evil reputation after they die.

likhi-aa hovai naankaa kartaa karay so ho-ay. ||1|| Whatever is predestined, happens, O Nanak; whatever the Creator does, comes to pass. ||1||

At first glance one notices that this paragraph is clearly a metaphor for people who behave like dogs. The dog is a scavenger, hunts in packs, fights within its pack, eats practically anything it can find etc etc. This entire Ang talks about people greed and those that lack honour when they are alive.

The second point to note is the mistranslation. Murdaar is not the word for meat. Murdaar is a reference to people who are dead. In other words people are acting so much like dogs that when people have died they gather round to get as much as they can. A good analogy would be inheritance, where is some instances people try and contest them or try and grab for themselves as much as they can. In India, it has not been unusual to murder siblings of inheritance disputes. In fact the word Murder in the English language has come from the word Murdaar.

Falsehood is my dagger

6. Falsehood is my dagger and to eat by defrauding is meat. (Guru Nanak Dev Ji. Sri Raaj p24

Let us again see this in context:

sireeraag mehlaa 1 ghar 4. Siree Raag, First Mehl, Fourth House:

ayk su-aan du-ay su-aanee naal. The dogs of greed are with me.

bhalkay bha-ukahi sadaa ba-i-aal. In the early morning, they continually bark at the wind.

koorh chhuraa muthaa murdaar. Falsehood is my dagger; through deception, I eat the carcasses of the dead.

Dhaanak roop rahaa kartaar. ||1|| I live as a wild hunter, O Creator! ||1||

mai pat kee pand na karnee kee kaar. I have not followed good advice, nor have I done good deeds.

ha-o bigrhai roop rahaa bikraal. I am deformed and horribly disfigured.

tayraa ayk naam taaray sansaar. Your Name alone, Lord, saves the world.

mai ayhaa aas ayho aaDhaar. ||1|| rahaa-o. This is my hope; this is my support. ||1||Pause||

mukh nindaa aakhaa din raat. With my mouth I speak slander, day and night.

par ghar johee neech sanaat. I spy on the houses of others-I am such a wretched low-life!

kaam kroDh tan vaseh chandaal. Unfulfilled sexual desire and unresolved anger dwell in my body, like the outcasts who cremate the dead.

Dhaanak roop rahaa kartaar. ||2|| I live as a wild hunter, O Creator! ||2||

faahee surat malookee vays. I make plans to trap others, although I appear gentle.

ha-o thagvaarhaa thagee days. I am a robber-I rob the world.

kharaa si-aanaa bahutaa bhaar. I am very clever-I carry loads of sin.

Dhaanak roop rahaa kartaar. ||3|| I live as a wild hunter, O Creator! ||3||

mai keetaa na jaataa haraamkhor. I have not appreciated what You have done for me, Lord; I take from others and exploit them.

ha-o ki-aa muhu daysaa dusat chor. What face shall I show You, Lord? I am a sneak and a thief.

naanak neech kahai beechaar. Nanak describes the state of the lowly.

Dhaanak roop rahaa kartaar. ||4||29|| I live as a wild hunter, O Creator! ||4||29||

Again this is similar to the above translated Ang. The Guru is clearly making an analogy between people who are acting like dogs. He is even saying that they are barking like dogs.

koorh chhuraa muthaa murdaar. Falsehood is my dagger; through deception, I eat the carcasses of the dead.

Again Mudaar does not mean meat at all. Mudaar refers to dead people, and how people are literally fighting over one another to get what they think is theirs. They are so consumed with greed and selfishness that they care not for one another, clearly nothing to do with meat eating.

Avarice is a dog, falsehood the sweepe

7. Avarice is a dog, falsehood the sweeper and cheating the eating of meat. (Guru Nanak Dev Ji. Sri Raag p15)

Let us put this last tukh in context with its correct translation:

sireeraag mehlaa 1. Siree Raag, First Mehl:

lab kutaa koorh choohrhaa thag khaaDhaa murdaar. Greed is a dog; falsehood is a filthy street-sweeper. Cheating is eating a rotting carcass.

par nindaa par mal mukh suDhee agan kroDh chandaal. Slandering others is putting the filth of others into your own mouth. The fire of anger is the outcaste who burns dead bodies at the crematorium.

ras kas aap salaahnaa ay karam mayray kartaar. ||1|| I am caught in these tastes and flavors, and in self-conceited praise. These are my actions, O my Creator! ||1||

baabaa bolee-ai pat ho-ay. O Baba, speak only that which will bring you honor.

ootam say dar ootam kahee-ahi neech karam bahi ro-ay. ||1|| rahaa-o. They alone are good, who are judged good at the Lord's Door. Those with bad karma can only sit and weep. ||1||Pause||

ras su-inaa ras rupaa kaaman ras parmal kee vaas. The pleasures of gold and silver, the pleasures of women, the pleasure of the fragrance of sandalwood,

ras ghorhay ras sayjaa mandar ras meethaa ras maas. the pleasure of horses, the pleasure of a soft bed in a palace, the pleasure of sweet treats and the pleasure of hearty meals –

aytay ras sareer kay kai ghat naam nivaas. ||2|| these pleasures of the human body are so numerous; how can the Naam, the Name of the Lord, find its dwelling in the heart? ||2||

jit boli-ai pat paa-ee-ai so boli-aa parvaan. Those words are acceptable, which, when spoken, bring honor.

fikaa bol viguchnaa sun moorakh man ajaan. Harsh words bring only grief. Listen, O foolish and ignorant mind!

jo tis bhaaveh say bhalay hor ke kahan vakhaan. ||3|| Those who are pleasing to Him are good. What else is there to be said? ||3||

tin mat tin pat tin Dhan palai jin hirdai rahi-aa samaa-ay. Wisdom, honor and wealth are in the laps of those whose hearts remain permeated with the Lord.

tin kaa ki-aa salaahnaa avar su-aali-o kaa-ay. What praise can be offered to them? What other adornments can be bestowed upon them?

naanak nadree baahray raacheh daan na naa-ay. ||4||4|| O Nanak, those who lack the Lord's Glance of Grace cherish neither charity nor the Lord's Name. ||4||4||

Again clearly a mistranslation and mischief making on the part of someone who wishes to convey a certain message.

lab kutaa koorh choohrhaa thag khaaDhaa murdaar. Greed is a dog; falsehood is a filthy street-sweeper. Cheating is eating a rotting carcass.

Again Murdaar is not Meat but is dead people. The entire Ang is talking about people who fall prey to the 5 thieves, Kaam, Krodh, Moh, Lobh and Hankaar.

MOTIVATIONS BEHIND MISTRANSLATION AND MISREPRESENTATION

There are several reasons behind why these mistranslations and misrepresentations have occurred:

The publishers have a lack of education and do not understand the meaning of words in Gurmukhi and the correct translation into English.

In their eagerness to promote their own brand of Sikhism (Sant, Jatha etc) they have deliberately allowed mistranslation and mistranslation.

Genuine abhorrence of killing animals can be a motivation too (eg those people that believe in Animal Rights), however Sikhism should not be used as a tool to promote such agendas.

Poor knowledge of history and the context in which the Guru’s and Bhaghats wrotes these Angs is a factor too. This can lead to a misrepresentation.

In conclusion one can only say that it is very important that Sikh institution promote a clear and concise programme where only those with a certain amount of knowledge in Sikh History and the Sikh Language, should be officially sanctioned as being translators for the Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji.

THE 84 MILLION INCARNATION ARGUMENT – ANIMAL, VEGETABLE, MINERAL.

The other argument that has been made over this issue is that there is some sort of hierarchy of incarnations within Sikhism of incarnations. Life goes through many incarnations (up to 84 million) before becoming human. In other words, life takes the form of incarnation in plant form, then animal, and then human. The idea being that animal form spiritually is closer to man. Biologically this maybe true, however, spiritually within Sikhism, this could not be further from the truth.

On page 176 of the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, the following is written:

ga-orhee gu-aarayree mehlaa 5. Gauree Gwaarayree, Fifth Mehl:

ka-ee janam bha-ay keet patangaa. In so many incarnations, you were a worm and an insect;

ka-ee janam gaj meen kurangaa. in so many incarnations, you were an elephant, a fish and a deer.

ka-ee janam pankhee sarap ho-i-o. In so many incarnations, you were a bird and a snake.

ka-ee janam haivar barikh jo-i-o. ||1|| In so many incarnations, you were yoked as an ox and a horse. ||1||

mil jagdees milan kee baree-aa. Meet the Lord of the Universe - now is the time to meet Him.

chirankaal ih dayh sanjaree-aa. ||1|| rahaa-o. After so very long, this human body was fashioned for you. ||1||Pause||

ka-ee janam sail gir kari-aa. In so many incarnations, you were rocks and mountains;

ka-ee janam garabh hir khari-aa. in so many incarnations, you were aborted in the womb;

ka-ee janam saakh kar upaa-i-aa. in so many incarnations, you developed branches and leaves;

lakh cha-oraaseeh jon bharmaa-i-aa. ||2|| you wandered through 8.4 million incarnations. ||2||

saaDhsang bha-i-o janam paraapat. Through the Saadh Sangat, the Company of the Holy, you obtained this human life.

kar sayvaa bhaj har har gurmat. Do seva - selfless service; follow the Guru's Teachings, and vibrate the Lord's Name, Har, Har.

ti-aag maan jhooth abhimaan. Abandon pride, falsehood and arrogance.

jeevat mareh dargeh parvaan. ||3|| Remain dead while yet alive, and you shall be welcomed in the Court of the Lord. ||3||

jo kichh ho-aa so tujh tay hog. Whatever has been, and whatever shall be, comes from You, Lord.

avar na doojaa karnai jog. No one else can do anything at all.

taa milee-ai jaa laihi milaa-ay. We are united with You, when You unite us with Yourself.

kaho naanak har har gun gaa-ay. ||4||3||72|| Says Nanak, sing the Glorious Praises of the Lord, Har, Har. ||4||3||72||

Reading this Ang one can clearly see that the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji does not attach any particular order to how life is incarnated. Infact it states:

ka-ee janam sail gir kari-aa. In so many incarnations, you were rocks and mountains;

ka-ee janam garabh hir khari-aa. in so many incarnations, you were aborted in the womb;

ka-ee janam saakh kar upaa-i-aa. in so many incarnations, you developed branches and leaves;

If you were to apply the logic of those that claim spiritually animal life is closer to human, then according to this a rock then becomes an aborted human foetus, then becomes a plant! It is only after this one becomes human. Surely then a plant is a closer form of life to human?

The Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji only proclaims one life form as being so precious. On page 50 of the Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji it states:

sireeraag mehlaa 5 ghar 2. Siree Raag, Fifth Mehl, Second House:

go-il aa-i-aa go-ilee ki-aa tis damf pasaar. The herdsman comes to the pasture lands-what good are his ostentatious displays here?

muhlat punnee chalnaa tooN sampal ghar baar. ||1|| When your allotted time is up, you must go. Take care of your real hearth and home. ||1||

har gun gaa-o manaa satgur sayv pi-aar. O mind, sing the Glorious Praises of the Lord, and serve the True Guru with love.

ki-aa thorh-rhee baat gumaan. ||1|| rahaa-o. Why do you take pride in trivial matters? ||1||Pause||

jaisay rain paraahunay uth chalsahi parbhaat. Like an overnight guest, you shall arise and depart in the morning.

ki-aa tooN rataa girsat si-o sabh fulaa kee baagaat. ||2|| Why are you so attached to your household? It is all like flowers in the garden. ||2||

mayree mayree ki-aa karahi jin dee-aa so parabh lorh. Why do you say, "Mine, mine?" Look to God, who has given it to you.

sarpar uthee chalnaa chhad jaasee lakh karorh. ||3|| It is certain that you must arise and depart, and leave behind your hundreds of thousands and millions. ||3||

lakh cha-oraaseeh bharmati-aa dulabh janam paa-i-o-ay. Through 8.4 million incarnations you have wandered, to obtain this rare and precious human life.

naanak naam samaal tooN so din nayrhaa aa-i-o-ay. ||4||22||92|| O Nanak, remember the Naam, the Name of the Lord; the day of departure is drawing near! ||4||22||92||

So clearly, the Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji sees plants, animals, and minerals, on one level in terms of life, and then human form on another. To take the life of a plant is the same as an animal in terms of spirituality. The following Ang although a metaphor for how people who speak the truth are treated, clearly shows the mind of the Guru’s when seeing life in all its form, be it plant, mineral or animal:

Page 143 of the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji

mehlaa 1. First Mehl:

vaykh je mithaa kati-aa kat kut baDhaa paa-ay. Look, and see how the sugar-cane is cut down. After cutting away its branches, its feet are bound together into bundles,

khundhaa andar rakh kai dayn so mal sajaa-ay. and then, it is placed between the wooden rollers and crushed.

ras kas tatar paa-ee-ai tapai tai villaa-ay. What punishment is inflicted upon it! Its juice is extracted and placed in the cauldron; as it is heated, it groans and cries out.

bhee so fog samaalee-ai dichai ag jaalaa-ay. And then, the crushed cane is collected and burnt in the fire below.

naanak mithai patree-ai vaykhhu lokaa aa-ay. ||2|| Nanak: come, people, and see how the sweet sugar-cane is treated! ||2||

The folly of the argument that spiritually one is committing a bigger sin when killing an animal than a plant is a foolish one. The biological argument is a different one and is not tackled within the Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji, but that in itself shows, the choice of whether or not to eat meat is a personal one and has nothing to do with the Sikh religion.

MEAT EATERS, ONLY EAT FOR TASTE OR DO VEGETARIANS AS WELL?

The most absurd argument that has been come across is that meat eaters only eat for taste, and too satisfy their taste buds. It is a selfish desire in other words, based on Greed and Egotism. The basis of this argument falls down with the fact that Vegetarian dishes (particularly on the Indian Subcontinent), are the most varied and most tasty of all dishes. To say that a vegetarian hates every mouthful of eating an Aubergine and Potatoes Curry and a meat eater loves every mouthful of Liver is indeed the weakest of all arguments. In fact page 61 of the Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji states:

jit tan naam na bhaav-ee <admin-profanity filter activated> tan ha-umai vaad. That body which does not appreciate the Naam-that body is infested with egotism and conflict.

gur bin gi-aan na paa-ee-ai bikhi-aa doojaa saad. Without the Guru, spiritual wisdom is not obtained; other tastes are poison.

bin gun kaam na aavee maa-i-aa feekaa saad. ||6|| Without virtue, nothing is of any use. The taste of Maya is bland and insipid. ||6||

aasaa andar jammi-aa aasaa ras kas khaa-ay. Through desire, people are cast into the womb and reborn. Through desire, they taste the sweet and sour flavors.

MEAT EATING PROMOTES DEVIANT BEHAVIOUR OR DOES IT?

There is a train of thought amongst certain Sikhs that meat eating promotes cruel, aggressive or lustful behaviour. There have been numerous examples to show that this is simply not true. For example Adolf Hitler was a vegetarian, yet he was very cruel. In terms of aggressive behaviour, we have our own Sant Jarnail Singh Bhindranwala, who was a staunch vegetarian, yet very aggressive. The Kuka’s (Namdharia’s), were very violent and aggressive yet were strict vegetarians. As for lustful behaviour, one only has too look at the list of A list celebrities who are vegetarians and note their lustful behaviour.

This argument is a ridiculous one and is not mentioned anywhere within the Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji. It is true however, many vegetarians do suffer from anaemia (lack of iron), and this causes tiredness (and therefore probably more passive behaviour), however, this is again outside the scope of this essay.

HUKAMNAMA ALLEGED TO HAVE BEEN WRITTEN BY THE 6TH MASTER

Some pro-vegetarian sections of the Sikh following have produced an alleged Hukamnama that states that the Sikhs of the East were not to go near meat. Unfortunately, the sources that have produced this Hukamnama, have not been able to back it up with any evidence of its genuineness, from any Sikh scholars of note. There have been statements to the effect that Ganda Singh found this document and indeed published it (Two collections of Hukamnamas are available in print form, one edited by Dr. Ganda Singh published in 1968 by Punjabi University and the S.G.P.C), but this has not been verified by any of his contemporaries or any other Sikh scholars..

Historical evidence, in fact contradicts what Guru Hargobind ji was actually like. He was an avid hunter and warrior. Again this fact some have tried to dismiss as Guruji giving Mukhti to animals souls. This, however, contradicts the Guru’s own philosophy which clearly states that only God is capable of granting such things.

Infact Bhai Gudas in his Vars States:

"Just as one has to tie pail's neck while taking out water, Just as to get 'Mani', snake is to be killed; Just as to get Kasturi from deer's neck, deer is to be killed; Just as to get oil, oil seeds are to be crushed; To get kernel, pomegranate is to be broken; Similarly to correct senseless people, sword has to be taken up." (Bhai Gurdas, Var-34, pauri 13)

In fact such a hukamna would indeed contradict the one Guru Gobind Singh ji sent to his Sikhs in Kabul (ADVANCED STUDIES IN SIKHISM by Jasbir Singh and Harbans Singh.):

"Sarbat sangat Kabul Guru rakhe ga Tusa ute asaadee bahut khusi hai Tusi Khande da Amrit Panja to lena Kes rakhne...ih asadee mohur hair; Kachh, Kirpan da visah nahee karna SARB LOH da kara hath rakhna Dono vakat kesa dee palna karna Sarbat sangat abhakhia da kutha Khave naheen, Tamakoo na vartana Bhadni tatha kanya-maran-vale so mel na rakhe Meene, Massandei, Ramraiye ki sangat na baiso Gurbani parhni...Waheguru, Waheguru japna Guru kee rahat rakhnee Sarbat sangat oopar meri khushi hai.

Patshahi Dasvi Jeth 26, Samat 1756

(To the entire sangat at Kabul. The Guru will protect the Sangat, I am pleased with you all. You should take baptism by the sword, from the Five Beloveds. Keep your hair uncut for this is a seal of the Guru, Accept the use of shorts and a sword. Always wear IRON KARA on your wrist, Keep your hair clean and comb it twice a day. Do not eat Halal (Kosher) meat, Do not use tobacco in any form, Have no connection with those who kill their daughters Or permit the cutting of their children's hair. Do not associate with Meenas, Massands and Ram-raiyas (anti-Sikh cults) Recite the Guru's hymns Meditate on "The Name of our Wonderful Lord", Follow the Sikh code of discipline I give the entire sangat my blessing)

Signature of 10th Guru Jeth 26, 1756 Bikrami (23rd May 1699 A.D)

As we know, there is no contradiction in the Guru’s message.

It should be noted also that there are a number of Hukamnama’s that have been found that also purport Sikhs to adopt Brahmanical religious tenets.

WHAT ARE THE VIEWS OF PROMINENT SIKH SCHOLARS ON THIS ISSUE?

Taken from www.sikhs.org:

Misconceptions About Eating Meat - Comments of Sikh Scholars by Sandeep Singh Brar

Sikhs and Sikhism by I.J. Singh, Manohar, Delhi Throughout Sikh history, there have been movements or subsects of Sikhism which have espoused vegetarianism. I think there is no basis for such dogma or practice in Sikhism. Certainly Sikhs do not think that a vegetarian's achievements in spirituality are easier or higher. It is surprising to see that vegetarianism is such an important facet of Hindu practice in light of the fact that animal sacrifice was a significant and much valued Hindu Vedic ritual for ages. Guru Nanak in his writings clearly rejected both sides of the arguments - on the virtues of vegetarianism or meat eating - as banal and so much nonsense, nor did he accept the idea that a cow was somehow more sacred than a horse or a chicken. He also refused to be drawn into a contention on the differences between flesh and greens, for instance. History tells us that to impart this message, Nanak cooked meat at an important Hindu festival in Kurukshetra. Having cooked it he certainly did not waste it, but probably served it to his followers and ate himself. History is quite clear that Guru Hargobind and Guru Gobind Singh were accomplished and avid hunters. The game was cooked and put to good use, to throw it away would have been an awful waste.

Guru Granth Sahib, An Analytical Study by Surindar Singh Kohli, Singh Bros. Amritsar The ideas of devotion and service in Vaishnavism have been accepted by Adi Granth, but the insistence of Vaishnavas on vegetarian diet has been rejected.

A History of the Sikh People by Dr. Gopal Singh, World Sikh University Press, Delhi Commenting on meat being served in the langar during the time of Guru Angad: However, it is strange that now-a-days in the Community-Kitchen attached to the Sikh temples, and called the Guru's Kitchen (or, Guru-ka-langar) meat-dishes are not served at all. May be, it is on account of its being, perhaps, expensive, or not easy to keep for long. Or, perhaps the Vaishnava tradition is too strong to be shaken off.

Philosophy of Sikhism by Gyani Sher Singh (Ph.D), Shiromani Gurdwara Parbandhak Committee. Amritsar As a true Vaisnavite Kabir remained a strict vegetarian. Kabir far from defying Brahmanical tradition as to the eating of meat, would not permit so much, as the plucking of a flower (G.G.S. pg 479), whereas Nanak deemed all such scruples to be superstitions, Kabir held the doctrine of Ahinsa or the non-destruction of life, which extended even to that of flowers. The Sikh Gurus, on the contrary, allowed and even encouraged, the use of animal flesh as food. Nanak has exposed this Ahinsa superstition in Asa Ki War (G.G.S. pg 472) and Malar Ke War (G.G.S. pg. 1288).

A Popular Dictionary of Sikhism, W.Owen Cole and Piara Singh Sambhi, England The Gurus were loath to pronounce upon such matters as the eating of meat or ways of disposing of the dead because undue emphasis on them could detract from the main thrust of their message which had to do with spiritual liberation. However, Guru Nanak did reject by implication the practice of vegetarianism related to ideas of pollution when he said, 'All food is pure; for God has provided it for our sustenance' (AG 472). Many Sikhs are vegetarian and meat should never be served at langar. Those who do eat meat are unlikely to include beef in their diet, at least in India, because of their cultural proximity to Hindus.

Sikhism, A Complete Introduction by Dr. H.S. Singha and Satwant Kaur, Hemkunt Press, Delhi In general Sikhism has adopted an ambivalent attitude towards meat eating as against vegetarianism. But if meat is to be taken at all, Guru Gobind Singh enjoined on the Khalsa Panth not to take kosher meat ie. Halal meat slaughtered and prepared for eating according to the Islamic practice. In fact it is one of the kurahits for every amritdhari Sikh. One who infringes it becomes patit (apostate).

Real Sikhism by Surinder Singh Kohli, Harman Publishing, New Delhi A close study of the above-mentioned hymns of Guru Nanak Dev clarifies the Sikh standpoint regarding meat-eating. The Guru has not fallen into the controversy of eating or not eating animal food. He has ridiculed the religious priests for raising their voice in favour of vegetarianism. He called them hypocrites and totally blind to the realities of life. They are unwise and thoughtless persons, who do not go into the root of the matter. According to him, the water is the source of all life whether vegetable or animal. Guru Nanak Dev said. "None of the grain of corn is without life. In the first place, there is life in water, by which all are made green" (Var Asa M.1, p. 472). Thus there is life in vegetation and life in all types of creatures.

Introduction to Sikhism by Dr. Gobind Singh Mansukhani, Hemkunt Press, Delhi The Gurus neither advocate meat nor banned its use. They left it to the choice of the individual. There are passages against meat, in the Adi Granth. Guru Gobind Singh however prohibited for the Khalsa the use of Halal or Kutha meat prepared in the Muslim ritualistic way. Introduction to Sikhism by G.S. Sidhu, Shromini Sikh Sangat, Toronto There are no restrictions for the Sikhs regarding food, except that the Sikhs are forbidden to eat meat prepared as a ritual slaughter. The Sikhs are asked to abstain from intoxicants.

The Sikh Faith by Gurbakhsh Singh, Canadian Sikh Study and Teaching Society, Vancouver According to the Maryada booklet 'Kutha', the meat prepared by the Muslim ritual, is prohibited for a Sikh. Regarding eating other meat, it is silent. From the prohibition of the Kutha meat, it is rightly presumed that non-Kutha meat is not prohibited for the Sikhs. Beef is prohibited to the Hindus and pork to the Muslims. Jews and Christians have their own taboos. They do not eat certain kinds of meat on certain days. Sikhs have no such instructions. If one thinks he needs to eat meat, it does not matter which meat it is, beef, poultry, fish, etc., or which day it is. One should, however, be careful not to eat any meat harmful for his health. Gurbani's instructions on this topic are very clear. "Only fools argue whether to eat meat or not. Who can define what is meat and what is not meat? Who knows where the sin lies, being a vegetarian or a non-vegetarian?" (1289) The Brahmanical thought that a religious person should be a vegetarian is of recent origin. Earlier, Brahmans had been eating beef and horse meat. In conclusion, it is wrong to say that any person who eats meat (of course Kutha, because of the Muslim rituals is prohibited) loses his membership of the Khalsa and becomes an apostate. Scientific Interpretation of Gurbani, Paper by Dr. Devinder Singh Chahal The above discussion leads us to the conclusion that the Sikh Gurus made people aware of the fact that it is very difficult to distinguish between a plant and an animal, therefore, it is difficult to distinguish between a vegetarian and a non-vegetarian diets and there is no sin of eating food originating from plants or animals.

Mini Encyclopaedia of Sikhism by H.S. Singha, Hemkunt Press, Delhi. The practice of the Gurus is uncertain. Guru Nanak seems to have eaten venison or goat, depending upon different janamsakhi versions of a meal which he cooked at Kurukshetra which evoked the criticism of Brahmins. Guru Amardas ate only rice and lentils but this abstention cannot be regarded as evidence of vegetarianism, only of simple living. Guru Gobind Singh also permitted the eating of meat but he prescribed that it should be Jhatka meat and not Halal meat that is jagged in the Muslim fashion.

THE KUTTHA MEAT ARGUMENT – KUTTHA MEANS ALL MEAT OR DOES IT?

What is Kuttha meat?

Punjabi-English Dictionary, Punjabi University, Dept. of Punjabi Lexicography, Published Dec. 1994. "Kuttha: meat of animal or fowl slaughtered slowly as prescribed by Islamic law."

Punjabi English Dictionary, Singh Bros., Amritsar "Kuttha: Tortured, killed according to Mohammedan law."

In the Rehit Marayada (http://www.sgpc.net/rehat_maryada/section_six.html), Section Six, it states:

The undermentioned four transgressions (tabooed practices) must be avoided 1. Dishonouring the hair; 2. Eating the meat of an animal slaughtered the Muslim way(Kutha); 3. Cohabiting with a person other than one's spouse; 4. Using tobacco.

There have been some quarters who have been at pains to create confusion over the word Kuttha. There is no confusion over this word, and the Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji is proof of this.

In the following Ang Guru Nanak condemns Brahmins, who serve their Muslim rulers stating they are acting like pseudo-Muslims. In this Ang there is a line which clearly refers to Kuttha as meat which has had Muslim prayers read over it. Kuttha, however, can meat any meat that is killed in a ritualistic manner.

mehlaa 1. First Mehl: maanas khaanay karahi nivaaj. The man-eaters say their prayers. chhuree vagaa-in tin gal taag. Those who wield the knife wear the sacred thread around their necks. tin ghar barahman pooreh naad. In their homes, the Brahmins sound the conch. unHaa bhe aavahi o-ee saad. They too have the same taste. koorhee raas koorhaa vaapaar. False is their capital, and false is their trade. koorh bol karahi aahaar. Speaking falsehood, they take their food. saram Dharam kaa dayraa door. The home of modesty and Dharma is far from them. naanak koorh rahi-aa bharpoor. O Nanak, they are totally permeated with falsehood. mathai tikaa tayrh Dhotee kakhaa-ee. The sacred marks are on their foreheads, and the saffron loin-cloths are around their waists; hath chhuree jagat kaasaa-ee. in their hands they hold the knives - they are the butchers of the world! neel vastar pahir hoveh parvaan. Wearing blue robes, they seek the approval of the Muslim rulers. malaychh Dhaan lay poojeh puraan. Accepting bread from the Muslim rulers, they still worship the Puraanas. abhaakhi-aa kaa kuthaa bakraa khaanaa. They eat the meat of the goats, killed after the Muslim prayers are read over them, cha-ukay upar kisai na jaanaa. but they do not allow anyone else to enter their kitchen areas. day kai cha-ukaa kadhee kaar. They draw lines around them, plastering the ground with cow-dung. upar aa-ay baithay koorhi-aar. The false come and sit within them. mat bhitai vay mat bhitai. They cry out, "Do not touch our food, ih ann asaadaa fitai. this food of ours will be polluted! tan fitai fayrh karayn. But with their polluted bodies, they commit evil deeds. man joothai chulee bharayn. With filthy minds, they try to cleanse their mouths. kaho naanak sach Dhi-aa-ee-ai. Says Nanak, meditate on the True Lord. such hovai taa sach paa-ee-ai. ||2|| If you are pure, you will obtain the True Lord. ||2||

Hence, it is clear that Kutha does not mean all meat at all, it means specifically Halal Meat, but in the wider context it can mean meat that is ritually slaughtered.

AN AMRIT-DHARI DOEAS NOT EAT MEAT OR DOES HE?

This clearly a falicy, since the rules that guide and Amritdhari are from the Rehit-Marayada, which places no taboo on meat eating.

EYE WITNESS ACCOUNTS OF EUROPEAN TRAVELLERS OF SIKH DIET DURING THE 18TH AND 19TH CENTURY

There are a number of eyewitness accounts from European travellers as to t the eating habits of Sikhs. Although there is no prohibition on Sikhs for eating beef, it is clear that Sikhs as a mark of respect for their Hindu neighbours did not partake in eating beef:

John Griffiths writes in February 17th 1794

The Seiks receive Proselytes of almost every Cast, a point in which they differ most materially from the Hindoos. To initiate Mohammedans into their mysteries, they prepare a Dish of Hogs legs, which the Converts are obliged to partake of, previous to admission………………..They are not prohibited the use of Animal food of any kind, excepting Beef, which they are rigidly scrupulous in abstaining from.

William Francklin in his writing about Mr George Thomas 1805 writes

The seiks are remarkably fond of the flesh of the jungle hog, which they kill in chase: this food is allowable by their law. They likewise eat of mutton and fish; but these being unlawful the Brahmins will not partake, leaving those who chose to transgress their institutes to answer for themselves.

It is clear from the above that there is a clear distinction between Sikhs (meat eaters), and those who chose to follow Brahmanical practices (Vegetarians), however there appears to be no dispute over this issue as people are allowed to decide for themselves.

The following is an extract from an officer in the Bengal Army and is taken from the Asiatic Annual Register 1809:

Now become a Singh, he is a heterodox, and distinct from the Hindoos by whom he is considered an apostate. He is not restricted in his diet, but is allowed, by the tenets of his new religion, to devour whatever food his appetite may prompt, excepting beef.

Clearly, this gives us an idea that even independent observers of Sikhs who saw their eating habits. These Sikhs were around some 100 years after the demise of the last physical Sikh Guru and represented hardcore Sikh philosophy at that time.

Quotes from Sikhs.Org

WHY MEAT IS NOT SERVED IN LANGAR

Taken from www.sikhs.org

The reason why meat is not served at langar in the Gurdwaras is because langar is supposed to be a symbol of equality of mankind where all people no matter what race, religion or caste can eat together in the atmosphere of brotherhood. Hindu, Sikh, Muslim, it does not matter who they are. Different religions have different dietary restrictions. Hindus cannot eat cow, muslims cannot eat pork and will only eat halal meat. Jews will only eat kosher meat, others cannot eat fish or eggs. But in a gurdwara langar, it does not matter what their dietary taboos or religious beliefs are, the food is designed so that all can eat together and no one will be offended or not be able to partake of the meal.

WHY JHATKA MEAT?

Extract take from www.sikhs.org

What is Jhatka Meat and Why?

Jhatka meat is meat in which the animal has been killed quickly without suffering or religious ritual.

Sikhism, A Complete Introduction, Dr. H.S.Singha & Satwant Kaur, Hemkunt Press

We must give the rationale behind prescribing jhatka meat as the approved food for the Sikhs. According to the ancient Aryan Hindu tradition, only such meat as is obtained from an animal which is killed with one stroke of the weapon causing instantaneous death is fit for human consumption. However, with the coming of Islam into India and the Muslim political hegemony, it became a state policy not to permit slaughter of animals for food, in any other manner, except as laid down in the Quran - the kosher meat prepared by slowly severing the main blood artery of the throat of the animal while reciting verses from the Quran. It is done to make slaughter a sacrifice to God and to expiate the sins of the slaughter. Guru Gobind Singh took a rather serious view of this aspect of the whole matter. He, therefore, while permitting flesh to be taken as food repudiated the whole theory of this expiatory sacrifice and the right of ruling Muslims to impose iton the non-Muslims. Accordingly, he made jhatka meat obligatory for those Sikhs who may be interested in taking meat as a part of their food.

Sikhs and Sikhism, Dr. I.J.Singh, Manohar Publishers. And one semitic practice clearly rejected in the Sikh code of conduct is eating flesh of an animal cooked in ritualistic manner; this would mean kosher and halal meat. The reason again does not lie in religious tenet but in the view that killing an animal with a prayer is not going to enoble the flesh. No ritual, whoever conducts it, is going to do any good either to the animal or to the diner. Let man do what he must to assuage his hunger. If what he gets, he puts to good use and shares with the needy, then it is well used and well spent, otherwise not.

THE FINAL AUTHORITY

Guru Nanak Devji tackled this entire issue head on and rubbished the claims of so called spiritual people who thought themselves more pious and religious simply because they did not eat meat.

Page 1289 Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji

mehlaa 1. First Mehl:

maas maas kar moorakh jhagrhay gi-aan Dhi-aan nahee jaanai. The fools argue about flesh and meat, but they know nothing about meditation and spiritual wisdom.

ka-un maas ka-un saag kahaavai kis meh paap samaanay. What is called meat, and what is called green vegetables? What leads to sin?

gaiNdaa maar hom jag kee-ay dayviti-aa kee baanay. It was the habit of the gods to kill the rhinoceros, and make a feast of the burnt offering.

maas chhod bais nak pakrheh raatee maanas khaanay. Those who renounce meat, and hold their noses when sitting near it, devour men at night.

farh kar lokaaN no dikhlaavahi gi-aan Dhi-aan nahee soojhai. They practice hypocrisy, and make a show before other people, but they do not understand anything about meditation or spiritual wisdom.

naanak anDhay si-o ki-aa kahee-ai kahai na kahi-aa boojhai. O Nanak, what can be said to the blind people? They cannot answer, or even understand what is said.

anDhaa so-ay je anDh kamaavai tis ridai se lochan naahee. They alone are blind, who act blindly. They have no eyes in their hearts.

maat pitaa kee rakat nipannay machhee maas na khaaNhee. They are produced from the blood of their mothers and fathers, but they do not eat fish or meat.

This tukh specifically deals with the arguments that rage today about spirituality and meat eating. The purpose of this essay, stated in the beginning is not to look at meat eating’s pro’s and con’s in terms of the wider biological debate, but to look at I terms of Sikhism and spirituality. As Sikh, one should be concerned with getting into the triviality of such worthless debates and certainly one should not mistranslate, or misrepresent the Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji to back up a certain point of view.

AUTHORS THOUGHTS

In the process of researching this paper we have both felt that the entire issue surrounding is that of a “smokescreen”. We both strongly felt that it is an issue that has come to a head and pushed through by external forces in order to divide the Panth. There have always been vegetarian Sikhs, and there have always been Meat eating Sikhs and the two groups have happily sat together and consumed a mutually acceptable Vegetarian Langar side by side. So why in the 20th and 21st Century has this issue caused so much debate and controversy?

This maybe traced back to the Times of the British Raj and encouragement of recruitment of Sikhs into the British Army. Many new converts to Sikhism came into the fold, many of whom still practiced Hindu Vaishnav practices of strict vegetarianism.

This need to cause division amongst Sikhs may even be traced earlier. In ‘Mobad’ Dabistan-I Mazahib 1645-46, the author states:

Many person became his disciples. Nanak believed in the Oneness of God and in the way that it is asserted in Muhammadan theology. He also believed in transmigration of souls. Holding wine and pork to be unlawful, he had [himself] abandoned eating meat. He decreed avoidance of causing harm to animals. It was after his time that meat-eating spread amongst his followers. Arjan Mal, who was on of his lineal succesors, found this to be evil. He prohibited people from eating meat, saying “This is not in accordance with Nanak’s wishes”. Later, Hargobind, son of Arjan Mal, ate eat and took to hunting. Most of their [the Gurus] followers adopted his practice.

Now clearly we know the message of the Guru’s was uniform. It was not that they contradicted each other on issues such as meat eating. If some of this authors writings are to be believed as factual, then one can only conclude that some of the Guru’s were indeed vegetarian and some meat eaters, but it was not an issue that mattered to them or which they attached importance to. The author in this instance has liberally applied his own thoughts in order to show a contradiction amongst the Sikh Guru’s teaching and possibly a mean to exploit division. There was no contradiction in Sikh thought from the First Master to the Last.

Reply - Understanding Gurbani is Most Important

Dear Lionchild:

This first article is without any merit – Maharaj says in Gurbani: "The self-willed manmukhs read and study, but they do not know the way." (p1032) If you are going to add your own views and not follow the words of the Guru then you are doomed. We have to understand the word of the Guru and not try and change it to suit our views.

Mortals who consume marijuana, flesh and wine

1. Those mortals who consume marijuana, flesh and wine - no matter what pilgrimages, fasts and rituals they follow, they will all go to hell. (233) (SGGS p1377)

The above is a translation by Dr. Sant Singh Khalsa, below is the translation by Bhai Manmohan Singh:

Kabir, whosoever of the mortals partake of meat, fish and wine. Whatever pilgrimages, fasting and daily rites they may perform, they all go to hell. (233)

Origanal text: ਕਬੀਰ ਭਾਂਗ ਮਾਛ੝ਲੀ ਸ੝ਰਾ ਪਾਨਿ ਜੋ ਜੋ ਪ੝ਰਾਨੀ ਖਾਂਹਿ ॥ ਤੀਰਥ ਬਰਤ ਨੇਮ ਕੀਝ ਤੇ ਸਭੈ ਰਸਾਤਲਿ ਜਾਂਹਿ ॥੨੩੩॥

Transliteration: kabeer bhaaNg maachhulee suraa paan jo jo paraanee khaaNhi. tirath barat naym kee-ay tay sabhai rasaatal jaaNhi. ||233||

Meanings:

• bhaaNg means intoxicating plant extract
• maachhulee = fish
• suraa paan = wine/intoxicating drink/ God liquor
• jo jo = who so ever
• paraanee = person
• khaaNhi. = partakes
• tirath = pilgrimage
• barat = fast
• naym = ritual rites
• kee-ay = does
• tay = that
• sabhai = all
• rasaatal = below earth / nether–region / hell
• jaaNhi = goes

The above is a simple statement – Where is the "Mistranslation And Misrepresentation" in this tuk. This is the word of our Guru, clear to understand. It is a complete statement in simple Punjabi – there is no doubt or confusion in the statement – those who understand Gurmukhi see this as a reasonably accurate translation in keeping with the original meaning. Most of the English translations available are very similar – the meaning in all is the same. Why do the authors need to relate it to Benares or anywhere else? When someone tries to twist the meaning of Gurbani or tries to narrow its meaning then we have a major problem – you need to remember how our Guru disowned Ram Rai for distorting the words of the Guru. I am sorry but the authors of this article have zero ability in the understanding of the Guru's message. Unfortunately, matters get even worse as we progress through the article.

I understand Gurmukhi completeltly thanks and the Guru's only use MAAS to describe meat. It is no Machlee, and it is Murdar

Welcome KingSingh to the discussion. Can I assume that you wrote this article?

I am so glad and excited to meet such a learned Gursikh, who can proudly say that he completely understands Gurmukhi. Sir, you have my utmost respect and I am proud to be associated with such an educated person.

Comments are welcome....sarcasm is not!! I will only make comments where a relevent point or Gurbani is noted - This above comment does not help your argument about meat and Sikhism

In that case I will keep the posts brief as you will understand most of Gurbani instantly. I hope you will accept that as Gurmukhs, we need to show in our actions, behaviour and discussion the fact that our acts & our views are based on principles stated in our scriptures. Also the Gurmukh will attempt to follow these principles stated in Gurbani. I hope you will agree with this statement? If not then what is your definition of a Gurmukh? I hope you will also agree that one who does not follow Gurbani but follows his or her own mind and desires can be called a Manmukh.

Actually this essay was prepared by 4 vegetarian Gurmukhs and 2 meat eating ones. All agree that vegetarianism and meat eating has nothing to do with Sikhism, but Hindu Vaishnavism. What difference does it make if 2 or 20 people prepared the article? What matters is whether the article has any merits - Please concentrate on the points made and please provide references and Gurbani quotes to support your views or the views made by the article. We require references from respected sources to support the things you are saying or supporting.

Also, I hope you will accept that as Sikhs, we follow the direct teachings of our Guru. Sri Guru Granth Sahib is our Guru and we are the followers and disciples of the Guru.

Alas you are putting your own fanatical spin on the teachings. With all my views I have provided you with Gurbani quotes which say exactly what I say. You are the one who is putting the spin.. The SGGS quote You say that the One Lord is in all, so why do you kill chickens? ((1)) needs your answer without your spin, please!!! For how long are you going to duck and dive? There are many, many quotes about this point in the SGGS - Open your eyes and read these Tuks. I have absolutely no connection with any other spiritual path - only the pure and simple wisdom from SGGS

You say categorically that Guru ji used MAAS to describe meat and in your eyes Machlee is not MAAS. Could you please point me to the Tuks where Guru ji states that Machlee is not MAAS? Does in your view MAAS mean meat? Or is it something different? If not, then as I have stated before, Wikipedia defines "Meat" as "…. all animal tissue" Do you agree with this? Is fish an animal or a plant or something else? Many thanks in anticipation--Hari Singh 17:32, 26 July 2006 (CDT)

Fish is not meat. Sweets are described as sweet meats? Now will you say that is meat too? I don't care what wikipedia says. Fish is not meat:

How can you not care about Wikipedia - What about all the other dictionary definitions? - Perhaps you do not care about them as well. You only appear to care about article and text that appears to coincide with your views. I suppose the same applies to SGGS. If a Tuk don't agree with your views - as you cannot disown it, you appear to "cook" up distortions. Just read the simple Tuks of Kabir ji:

The world eats dead carcasses, living by neglect and greed. ((Pause)) Like a goblin, or a beast, they kill and eat the forbidden carcasses of meat. So control your urges, or else you will be seized by the Lord, and thrown into the tortures of hell.

You kill living beings, and call it a righteous action. Tell me, brother, what would you call an unrighteous action? You call yourself the most excellent sage; then who would you call a butcher?

One who contemplates the essence of reality remains awake and aware. He kills his self-conceit, and does not kill anyone else.

You say that the One Lord is in all, so why do you kill chickens?

Kabeer, the dinner of beans and rice is excellent, if it is flavored with salt. Who would cut his throat, to have meat with his bread?

Kabeer, they oppress living beings and kill them, and call it proper. When the Lord calls for their account, what will their condition be?

fish ( P ) Pronunciation Key (fsh) n. pl. fish or fish•es Any of numerous cold-blooded aquatic vertebrates of the superclass Pisces, characteristically having fins, gills, and a streamlined body and including specifically: Any of the class Osteichthyes, having a bony skeleton. Any of the class Chondrichthyes, having a cartilaginous skeleton and including the sharks, rays, and skates. The flesh of such animals used as food. Any of various primitive aquatic vertebrates of the class Cyclostomata, lacking jaws and including the lampreys and hagfishes. Any of various unrelated aquatic animals, such as a jellyfish, cuttlefish, or crayfish. Informal. A person, especially one considered deficient in something: a poor fish.

and Meat:

meat ( P ) Pronunciation Key (mt) n. The edible flesh of animals, especially that of mammals as opposed to that of fish or poultry. The edible part, as of a piece of fruit or a nut. The essence, substance, or gist: the meat of the editorial. Slang. Something that one enjoys or excels in; a forte: Tennis is his meat. Nourishment; food: “Love is not all: it is not meat nor drink” (Edna St. Vincent Millay). Vulgar Slang. The human body regarded as an object of sexual desire. The genitals.

Now read the above definition carefully. It is from www.dictionary.com. 2+2 does not equal 5 as you have made out.

Well if you understood English well, you would see that your own reference say: Meat is The edible flesh of animals and then they put a slight refining on this -especially .... But the main part of the sentence start with the same definition as in Wikipedia.

I have condensed the following article: Why Fish is Meat – Please read it:

"Well, if fish isn't meat, then exactly what is it? Is it a PLANT? Because it doesn't seem to be a plant to me. And it isn't a kind of fungus, or mushroom, or lichen, or bacteria, or any of that sort of stuff. No. It is an animal. Fish is an animal."

Look at the dictionary definitions:

"Animal: 1. A sentient living organism typically capable of voluntary motion and sensation: distinguised from plant. Now, that certainly includes fish, doesn't it. Now, with that fact in mind, read the definition of meat...

Meat: 1. The flesh of animals used as food, esp. the flesh of mammals as opposed to fish or fowl. 2. The edible part of anything. 3. Anything eaten for nourishment, as in meat and drink.

Okay. Well, except for the part of it that says "esp. the flesh of mammals as opposed to fish or foul," (see below) that pretty much sums it up. Fish is meat, yessiree. It fits definitions 2 and 3 perfectly.

Now about number 1. .... it says "esp. the flesh of mammals as opposed to fish or foul". But it says "esp." which means especially. It doesn't say that fish and foul aren't included. It just means that it is ESPECIALLY the flesh of a mammal. It does NOT say ONLY the flesh of mammals. Get my point here?"

See the full article at website Candice Green

Now lets look at more definitions then:

• exploratorium.edu: Meat is mostly the muscle tissue of an animal.
• wordnet.princeton.edu meat - the flesh of animals (including fishes and birds and snails) used as food
• business-words.com meat: edible flesh of an animal, as in: Vegetarians do not eat meat.
• linguasphere.org meat -- the flesh of animals (including fishes and birds and snails) used as food

Remember that we are talking about MAAS and the Dictionary of Guru Granth Sahib and Punjabi-English English-Punjabi Dictionary both define MAAS as "Flesh, meat, month". Would you like to do the same exercise of looking up the definition of the word "flesh"?

Another thought - So what do you call the edible flesh of fish? – Fish, perhaps?? or MAAS??

Detailed Analysis:

a). The article says: "…note that maachlee is not flesh, but is indeed fish." What a stupid statement. We all know that "maachee" is fish – but what is fish – Is it not flesh and meat? – It is definitely not vegetable. The Wikipedia describes meat as "…. all animal tissue". So this just goes to show the sort of people we are dealing with – they play with words and with situation to bring unnecessary confusion and complications.

I'm affraid you have made a stupid staement my friend....fish id not meat at all. If we were to use your analogy then why do we not call a rock and animal?

Please refer to Wikipedia Kingdoms (biology) and I hope you will agree that for a layman only two kingdoms are meaningful - Animal and Plant. So all we need to do is classify fish between these kingdoms and I hope you will agree that a fish is an animal. If you agree, then the 'tissue of an animal' according to Wikipedia is called meat. How do you see this matter? Please correct me if I am wrong. --Hari Singh 18:56, 26 July 2006 (CDT)

Actually Bani refers to Animal, vegetable , mineral..........it then refers to human kind as seperate.....try reading the entire essay.

Again

meat ( P ) Pronunciation Key (mt) n. The edible flesh of animals, especially that of mammals as opposed to that of fish or poultry.

b). The article further states: "He (Kabir) saw the excesses of the rich around him, while the poor starved. Foods like fish and wine were associated with the rich who had an excessive disposable income" Where does Gurbani say this? This is pure Manmaat. When talking about rich & poor, Kabir ji says: "It gives no special consideration to either the rich or the poor. The king and his subjects are equally killed; such is the power of Death. ||2|| (p 855) and "The poor man and the rich man are both brothers. God's pre-ordained plan cannot be erased. ||3|| Says Kabeer, he alone is poor, who does not have the Naam, the Name of the Lord, in his heart. ||4||8|| (p1159) I do not see any mention of the "excesses of the rich around him, while the poor starved" bit here. In fact, Kabir ji says that the two are brothers and a "pre-ordained plan" that cannot be changed – How can you then justify the words "Kabir abhorred this, and this statement is a social comment about the excesses of the rich" by these authors? – They have given no references from anywhere. So why do you prefer these authors words rather than the Guru's word – Stick to what Gurbani says and only seek assistance of the "Saadh Sangat" – True followers of the Guru!!

Have you actually tried reading the entire Ang? Yes, I have read all of Ang 1377 and I cannot see it. Kabit Ji is actuually making direct reference to excess. Please refer me to the line or lines on that Ang. Try and understand before you make comments. Sorry, please put me right. Actually you know nothing of the history of Kabir and where he grew up. You may be right but in my defence, I appear to have contributed the most to the article on Bhagat Kabir on Sikhiwiki. And Sir, what may I humbly ask have you contributed in this respect? - Since you have enormous knowledge on this subject! He grew up as a poor Muslim Julaha, and saw both Hindu's and Muslims selling their souls for money. Selling their Souls - Please provide me with the line for Gurbani - This sounds very interesting! He wished to expose this hypocrasy. Marijuana, wine and fish, were delicasies enjoyed by the rich. Please provide a credible reference from Gurbani Pick up a history book and try reading it, and find out I thought we were discussing the message of Gurbani - Where does it say that we need to be historians to understand Gurbani?

c). The authors then deduce that: "One can therefore clearly see that this is in no way a comment about eating meat". Well, if this tuks is not about eating meat then the Earth must be flat!!

No the Earth is round but unfortunately New Age Brahmins like you wish to flatten it. Sikhi is not a Sharia law, and your reasoning is porr to say the least. Thank you for your very flattering comments!! So you think that the Tuk:- "Those mortals who consume marijuana, flesh and wine - no matter what pilgrimages, fasts and rituals they follow, will all go to hell". Is giving you a clear message that Bhagat Kabir ji is saying that if we consume marijuana, flesh and wine then we will go to heaven!! - All I can say is – Good luck to you when you face Dharamraj!!! Please remember my words when the fire hits you and your neck is cut to turn you into food. My friend, please read the Sakhi of Bhagat Sadhna – and see if you can get the message about the two going thro the cycle of being re-incarnated as a goat many thousand of times.

You kill living beings

2. You kill living beings and worship lifeless things, at your very last moment, You will suffer terrible pain. (SGGS p332)

and also translated by Bhai Manmohan Singh as:

"You behead living being and worship lifeless things. At the last moment, great shall be your suffering." (p332)

The authors say: "… this is nothing to do with meat eating." Yes, we can read that – It's about kill living beings – and meat is when you kill living beings called animals!! You seem to have lost the connection!!!

Now read this carefully. It is clear to me you are not well read at all and are plucking statement from the air.

"Quite clearly when put into context this is nothing to do with meat eating. What is being alluded to is Hindu sacrificial rituals (eg Anustarani http://www.sanskrit.org/www/Rites%20...rs2.html#_ftn4) where animals were sacrificed on the funeral pyre, ancestors or to deities. Yet the Brahmins who performed these rituals were themselves devout vegetarians. This is a comment about the futility of animal sacrifices to stone idols and dead ancestors. It is a comment on hypocrisy. "

Do you know what ANUSTRANI is? If not then you cannot make any judgements. This is a direct attack on futile Brahmanical rituals. The Brahmins who performed this were devout vegetarians themselves i.e. hypocrits

Do not say that the Vedas are false

3. Do not say that the Vedas are false, false are those who do not reflect. If in all is one god, then why does one kill the hen? (SGGS p1350)

Dr Sant Singh -> "Do not say that the Vedas, the Bible and the Koran are false. Those who do not contemplate them are false. You say that the One Lord is in all, so why do you kill chickens? ||1||"

Bhai M Singh -> "Say not that the Vedas and Muslim books are false. False is he, who reflects not on them. When thou say that one God abides in all, then why kill thou a hen?"

We have three translations which are very similar. As explained before, just looking this one tuk in detail, which is in simple Punjabi, this point to most un-biased people is very clear and final:

Kabir ji clearly states: (p1350) "ਜਉ ਸਭ ਮਹਿ ਝਕ੝ ਖ੝ਦਾਇ ਕਹਤ ਹਉ ਤਉ ਕਿਉ ਮ੝ਰਗੀ ਮਾਰੈ ॥੧॥ ja-o sabh meh ayk khudaa-ay kahat ha-o ta-o ki-o murgee maarai. ||1|| You say that the One Lord is in all, so why do you kill chickens? ||1||"

Meanings:

• ja-o means If / when
• sabh = all
• meh = within
• ayk = one
• khudaa-ay = God
• kahat = say
• ha-o = that
• ta-o = then
• ki-o = why
• murgee = chicken
• maarai = kill

This is simple Punjabi so all of us who speak this language should be able to understand this simple tuk with 11 words. Kabir ji asks us: "If you say God is in all, then why do you kill Murgee (chicken)?" Now what's your answer to this statement? Only by dealing with all the tuks that I have outlined previously can we move forward. Please read the previous posts.

Analysis:

The authors wrongly say that: "Kabeer is mocking the futility of this ritual… It is a futile gesture that will not sway God." I don't think the authors are aware that our fifth Guru compiled the Adi Granth for us, the Sikhs and not for the Mullahs. Surely such huge personalities like our Gurus will know which Bani to include for our benefit. The Guru's were well aware that the Mullahs would not read the Granth but that it will be mostly read by the Sikhs. What impact will the Bani have on the Sikhs - this was foremost in our Guru's mind. Over 500 years ago, Hindus who became Sikhs would have no idea about Islam, etc as most were illiterate. So these Sikhs would not be expected to be aware of all the things that the authors have assumed about Islam and its background. It just goes to show how these authors are trying to fit the tuk to their beliefs rather than the other way around – Fit your habits around the Gurbani Tuks!!!

Oh My Lord. You do not even know what occurs in the month of Ramadan, or at the end of it. Quarbani or anything?. You neeed to start reading rather than making yourself look foolish on a public site my friend.

Maharaj says: "Reading and studying, one becomes confused, and suffers punishment. By great cleverness, one is consigned to coming and going in reincarnation. One who chants the Naam, and eats the food of the Fear of God becomes Gurmukh, the Lord's servant, and remains absorbed in the Lord. ||5||" (p686) and "By reading books, one cannot reach Him; by speaking and talking, His limits cannot be found. Through the Guru, His value is found; through the True Word of the Shabad, understanding is obtained.||7||" (427)

So if you don't mind I will follow the Hukam of the Guru and not worry about the ego-pumping trips that one gets by reading this useless material. Gurbani is complete and one does not need any help from the outside. If one needs to go further, then read Bhai Gurdas ji's vaara.

Also, please don't worry about my reputation in the public. Waheguru can look after that if he so wishes - what is more of a concern is the treatment that one gets when one distorts Gurbani - That person becomes an "outlaw" from the Guru. I am sure you have read about this in Anand Sahib and sakhi of Ram Rai - I do not want to become a 'Baamukh'.

There is no reference to Qurbani or Ramadan in this Shabad, so why bring it in - This is a creation of your mind to help you twist Gurbani. The Tuk is complete - "You say that the One Lord is in all, so why do you kill chickens?" Just simply answer the question. If Guru ji wanted to refer to some event or ritual, he would have mentioned it. He did not bring this up as it was not important - so this tuk applies generally to everyone. If we say God is in all beings, then how can we kill them and cause them suffering & pain?

Please consider Gurbani as "Dhur-ki-bani" - It is perfect, clear and complete - All one need is the fear for God - Maharaj says: "Intuitive understanding is obtained and one is welcomed with honor, through the Guru's Word, filled with the Fear of God." (p18) and also "The Fear of God is always on their minds, and so they come to understand everything." (p649)

Read the entire Ang of Bani rather than tearing it to pieces and selectively quoting to suit your Baba/Sant mat agenda

The article continues: "… the person who tried to use this tukh as an anti-meat quotation was unaware of the Koranic context and had an extremely poor knowledge of Semitic history." You don't need to know any history to understand this tuk. It is very basic elementary Punjabi – Read the words and understands the meaning – Answer the question posed by Bhagat Kabir ji!!! Do you think 500 years ago the Sikhs in Punjab village would understand "Koranic" principles and "Semitic history"?

Yes, because villages were mixed and most of Punjab was Muslim. That is why they made Pakistan there. News Flash, Muslims converted to Sikhism too, hence why the Mughals wished to destroy it.

Please provide references that support these statements. India has an over 80% Hindus population today according to wikipedia so as an average calculation, 80% of villages would be predominantly Hindu. Please answer the questions raised by me rather than insult my intelligence. Please address my previous question of where does it say in Gurbani that one needs to know "Koranic" principles and "Semitic history"

You have incredibly poor historical knowledge. Our Guru's were highly competant scholars, as well as men of divine knowledge. Alas you lack these qualities.

As for demographics....are you for real, do you know how many Muslims moved from East Punjab to West Punjab. I fear the problem with you Sikhs from Kenya is that you have no knowledge of actual Indian, Sikh or Punjabi History. I cannot teach you your ABC friend, in order to have a conversation with you, you must have some basic knowledge. You do not even realise where Guru Nanak grew up (yes massive Muslim population) or even about how villages were inter dispersed with various religions

We are not here to discuss our personal qualities or the lack of them; we are here discussing the words of Gurbani and their meaning. I am sure that everyone wants to hear your views about this and not read your personal digs at me. I will appreciate if you concentrate on the task in hand.

Actually personal qualities matter. It has taken me 17 years of hard study, just to answer basic questions in Sikhi. The guys who prepared this essay have over 1oo years of experience and knowledge

Actually our Guru's with the statement "there is no Hindu, there is no Musalmaan" took a massive swipe at Hinduism and Islam. Your lack of understanding on this basic point on Sikhism is incredible. I bet you do not even know that one of the Guru's disowned his son because he changed the meaning of a tukh that took a swipe at Islam. Your knowledge is terrible to say the least.

Considering that I have contributed over 500 "articles" to Sikhiwiki and Wikipedia, I am sure you are wrong in your statement about my knowledge of Sikhi. I am aware of all the historic points that you have raised - see my [additions] in January 2006 to the article Guru Har Rai, where I have mentioned the following: "Baba Ram Rai in order to please the emperor and gain his sympathy distorted Gurbani". Also see the article done by me on the same day on Baba Ram Rai. Is an apology in order??

500 articles? That means nothing to mean. Any Tom, Dick or Harji can post on the internet their own Sant-Baba Mat as you have. Does not make you a scholar in Sikhism. When you get to the stage of Jagjit Singh, Professor Greal, or Dr Mann, then start claiming you know something......till then stick to just grammar checks.

I am sorry but if you are a true Sikh then please only deal with the points in question about Sikhi and Gurbani and don't worry about my personal virtues and vices - That would be much appreciated.

I have dealt with the point s however you are deaf to them. You don't wish to listen and only wish to carry on you Manmat....your version of Sikhism

• Please read my previous remark and answer the points that have been raised.
• You have failed to address any of the issues that have been raised. Please address this.

The issues have been addressed, anyone with basic historical knowledge in Sikhism would understand them.

• You have failed completely to give any references for the statements that you have made. Please address this urgently.

Refrences are there. You have to read the entire essay, follow links and also read entire Angs...not pull out single sentences

• Will you provide some direct replies to the points that have been raised so that the matter can move forward?

If you wish to debate this come to www.sikh-history.com, where some real scolars will teach you a thing or too. We have leading experts in the field of Sikh History and Bani that post there. (replies in italics by) --Hari Singh 21:10, 26 July 2006 (CDT)

The best food is eating kichree

4. Bhagat Kabir says, that the best food is eating kichree (daal/lentils) where nectar sweet is the salt. You eat hunted meat, but which animal is willing to have their head cut? (SGGS p1374)

"ਕਬੀਰ ਖੂਬ੝ ਖਾਨਾ ਖੀਚਰੀ ਜਾ ਮਹਿ ਅੰਮ੝ਰਿਤ੝ ਲੋਨ੝ ॥ ਹੇਰਾ ਰੋਟੀ ਕਾਰਨੇ ਗਲਾ ਕਟਾਵੈ ਕਉਨ੝ ॥੧੮੮॥ kabeer khoob khaanaa kheechree jaa meh amrit lon. hayraa rotee kaarnay galaa kataavai ka-un. ||188|| Kabeer, the dinner of beans and rice is excellent, if it is flavoured with salt. Who would cut his throat, to have meat with his bread? ||188||"

Analysis:

The authors very firmly tell us: "In the above Gurmukhi, there is no mention of meat whatsoever." However, little do they inform us that the word "ਹੇਰਾ" translates to "maas" which is "meat/flesh". (see Srigranth.org) Need we analysis this any further?

kabeer khoob khaanaa kheechree jaa meh amrit lon. Kabeer, the dinner of beans and rice is excellent, if it is flavored with salt. hayraa rotee kaarnay galaa kataavai ka-un. ||188|| Who would cut his throat, to have meat with his bread? ||188||

hayraa rotee kaarnay galaa kataavai ka-un.......??? Who are you kidding? You are clutching at straws now. Where is the word for meat here?

In KalYuga, people have faces like dogs & Others

5. In this dark age of Kali Yuga, people have faces like dogs; They eat rotting dead bodies for food. (SGGS p1242)

Dr Sant Singh -> "ਕਲਿ ਹੋਈ ਕ੝ਤੇ ਮ੝ਹੀ ਖਾਜ੝ ਹੋਆ ਮ੝ਰਦਾਰ੝ ॥ kal ho-ee kutay muhee khaaj ho-aa murdaar. In this Dark Age of Kali Yuga, people have faces like dogs; they eat rotting carcasses for food."

Bhai M Singh -> "In this age of darkness, men have faces like dogs and carrion is their food."

And: 6. Falsehood is my dagger and to eat by defrauding is meat. (Guru Nanak Dev Ji. Sri Raaj p24

"ਕੂੜ੝ ਛ੝ਰਾ ਮ੝ਠਾ ਮ੝ਰਦਾਰ੝ ॥ koorh chhuraa muthaa murdaar. Falsehood is my dagger; through deception, I eat the carcasses of the dead."

Also:

7. Avarice is a dog, falsehood the sweeper and cheating the eating of meat. (Guru Nanak Dev Ji. Sri Raag p15) "ਲਬ੝ ਕ੝ਤਾ ਕੂੜ੝ ਚੂਹੜਾ ਠਗਿ ਖਾਧਾ ਮ੝ਰਦਾਰ੝ ॥ lab kutaa koorh choohrhaa thag khaaDhaa murdaar. Greed is a dog; falsehood is a filthy street-sweeper. Cheating is eating a carcass."

Analysis: The word "Murdaa" from the Punjabi dictionary is: dead body; carcass; lifeless; deceased; corpse

The authors very emphatically tell us that: "Murdaar is not the word for meat." Clearly the meaning of Murdaar from various sources is carrion or corpse or dead body or meat / flesh. Bhai Manmohan Singh translates "Murdaar" to "Carrion" which on checking at dictionary.reference.com means "Dead and decaying flesh."

I believe that these authors have not researched this topic without bias and the details that is required. To understand Gurbani, one must have fear of the Lord - "Those who contemplate the Word of the Guru's Shabad are filled with the Fear of God." (p 35) Without this fear one does not impart the necessary energy and dedication required in appreciating the meaning of Gurbani.

Murdaar is not meat, whichever way you look at it. If you are saying it is you are adding spin TO BE CONTINUED ....

--Hari Singh 22:19, 25 July 2006 (CDT)

Article Prepared By Vegetarians and Meat Eating Amridhari's

The article above was prepared by vegetarian and meat eating Amritdhari's who had and incrediblw knowledge of SSikhism. Far greater than Hari. Hari you do not know the basics of Sikh history or the construction of Gurbani, so what makes you think you are in a position to comment. Your points don't stack up. They are falsehoods at worst, or mistakes at best.

Is Langaar for all or Is Sikhi promoting Veggie?

Dear Lionchild sikhi

Thanks for your contribution. Thanks for the Cut and Paste of the article, I contemplated doing that, but I thought it was too big, I added the link hoping that Hari Singh would go to it and read it.

Although this discussion is not really about eating meat, we started this by Hari Singh reverting my corrections to his article. An article/site which he is very posessive about.

The facts of this discussion is that I believe the reason for Langaar to be vegiarian, a view held by most of the world, is that is does not discriminate anyone attending the langaar. Meat eaters can also eat veggie but it is not the case the other way around. Therefore being "open kitchen", any person of any creed, religion, belief should be able to sit together as one without generating advance menus. Hari Singh's argument is that the reason a Langaar is veggie is because it's forbidden to eat meat in basic Sikhi and this is the reason.

He thinks that my reason is not the right one as he beleives langaars could be split into dietery preferences if WE could eat meat.

I'm not making this up honestly, please read from the top and check history of this discussion.

Thank you.

Lecturer