Talk:Hari Singh Nalwa
I have reservations on the practice of using the beads as shown in the this image http://www.sikhiwiki.org/index.php?title=Image:Hari_Singh_Nalwa_1.JPG. I request the contributer of the image to provide some reliable source which can prove the correctness of the practice shown in the image. Otherwise, I request this image should be removed and a more meaningful image should be uploaded.
- Gur savare Aulakh Ji, I appreciate your concern regarding authenticity of an image about any famous sikh personality.The image in question is from Lahore Museum courtsery F.Azizuddin and is very well placed on sikh-heriatge U.k site as well. You can read more from the source site as per link given under:
Hope this satisfies your query. In fact we are used to looking at one side of the picture that Sardar Hari singh Nalwa was a great warrior.We forget that ( Warrior-Saint charachter which sikhi very much preaches) warrior saint characters are a living legend in sikhism.In fact this picture has left a deep impression in my mind that all bravery of Sardar hari singh Nalwa ji and baba dip singh ji shahid ji was result of deep mediatation and simran which they used to practice. --Guglani 05:02, 7 February 2007 (MST)
- Veerji, thanks for the reply. My concern was not about the authenticity of the image. An image may be totally authentic but still it may show a person involved in a practice which that person may not have done. I agree with you that these great men from history were deeply religious as well but I have doubts that telling beads is a practice of Sikhism and Hari Singh Nalwa was involved in that. There are numerous quotes in Gurbani which mentions that telling beads is not a practice which does any good. Also, I did not find any reference source where it has been mentioned that Hari Singh Nalwa used to tell beads. When I asked to cite a reference, I was actually requesting to cite a reliable reference from history which specifically talks about practices of Hari Singh Nalwa. As far as muslim artists are concerned, most of them (from the history) considered Sikhs as Hindus (definitely, wrongly!), therefore, their depiction of Sikh historical figures mostly has their imagination of hindu practices. By the time someone can prove that Hari Singh Nalwa used to tell beads, why not use another image from the same site you pointed? Also, please note that I am never against your observation of Hari Singh Nalwa being religious soldier, what I am questioning is that - Did he really used to tell beads? If yes please provide reliable source from history (no paintings please, they are often just imaginations of artists) A. S. Aulakh Talk 02:23, 8 February 2007 (MST)
- Image of Sardar Nalua with one hand on beads and on the other side wearing a full length sword even while in deep meditation posture reflects his warrior -saint personality .Before one proclaims that telling beads is forbidden in sikhism ,one one will have to produce lots of evidence for denouncing this practice and simultaneously defame many religious saints which have carried sikhi forward.--Guglani 20:41, 8 February 2007 (MST)
Is using beads (mala) for simran against Sikhi? (mala phaar-nee)
Respected Guglani ji,
This is an interesting point. I believe that any thing which allows you to constantly remember God is a good thing but at the same time I remember a tuk of Bhagat Kabir where he say why are you showing-off your mala (or something to that effect). I must say that I don't think that using a mala is against Sikhi - I am prepared to be guided - if someone can produce Gurbani to say otherwise. I believe that Gurbani is neutral on this point. If a mala helps you with your simran, then use it. But don't use it as an implement to impress your friends of your new-found toy!
Debate is always good, if we use it to learn - As Sikhs, we should be prepared to listen and learn provided we use Gurbani as our guide rather that the views of other people.
Below are a few links to Gurbani - Tell me what you think?
I agree that one must rely on Gurbani and on Gurmukhs and to challenge them is an impossible task – but lets listen to all the views and then we can make up our mind. Let's be open to discussion and not be completely intransigent in our attitude. I never think that I know everything! There are always new things to learn and sometimes you can from a small child or even an animal - lets keep an open mind and hope we will learn something useful from this discussion! I will do some research and come back to you. I suggest that we discuss the topic here as it is more central rather than on individual talk pages. Kind regards, Hari Singh 21:51, 8 February 2007 (MST)
- Respected Aulakh Ji,
Tuks from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji should be used to derive meaning as per context in which these have been written.If i use first tuk reference given by you ਪੜਿ ਪਸਤਕ ਸੰਧਿਆ ਬਾਦੰ You read your books and say your prayers, and then engage in debate to mean that in Sri Guru Granth Sahib reading books and engaging ibn debate is a forbidden practice it would be an erroneous meaning.A practice as such may not be wrong but a purpose for which that practice has been used may be maligned;action of using that practice for a maligned purpose it is that which need be criticised or discouraged.Ther are thousands of images of Guru Nank Dev ji in several sikh homes,on several sikh sites which carry mala around gUru Ji's neck.Even image loaded by Hari Singh ji at sikhiwiki site about Guru Nanak dev Ji in that very article carries mala around Guru Ji's neck.So to my mind discussion on this topic is futile exercise and we should utilize our time in some more creative activity rather than wasting on this subject.Kind regards --Guglani 21:09, 11 February 2007 (MST)
- Respected Aulakh Ji,
- Respected Aulakh Ji
I have read all the quotations from Gurbani that you list, but I don't think there is one that directly prohibits the practice of "mala phaar-nee". Is there any one quotation that totally forbids this practice or speaks directly and clearly against this custom. If you could choose only 2 Shabads of Gurbani to support your view - which ones would you choose and how would you justify that Gurbani clearly speak against this habit. To simply imply that "showing-off that one is meditating" is undesirable is not, in my opinion a strong argument – because, for example, one could say that using a Gutka to recite Gurbani is "showing–off" and hence undesirable. And what about the other outer features that display a sign of "holiness" like turban, long beard, bana, 5Ks, etc – they are not banned; in fact we encourage them - so why does a mala become so important and should be banned?
I am intrigued why the mala get this special treatment – How about instrument to help with Simran and Shabad like Rabab, flute, etc; Why not sing Shabads without instruments or like the Muslims – ban music altogether? Pictures showing a person carrying a Rabab is a sign of "holiness" – should these pictures be banned? It raises some important questions and I wonder what your answers will be? If mala is banned because it helps with timing and counting – How about a clock? Would you consider that any implement for measuring the amount of devotion that you give to Waheguru should be banned? What is the basic criteria for banning? Because it is a sign of "holiness"; an implement for counting one's dedication; or is it something else? Sorry for all the questions but I am still not fully convinced and I am hoping that you will be able to enlighten. Many thanks in advance for your interesting query and dedication and devotion to the cause, Hari Singh 18:31, 12 February 2007 (MST)
- Respected Aulakh Ji
Pictorial of Guru nanak etc shows mala tell me one thing kae aise hastee nu mala dee lod paindie si naam japan lai, eh painters nae aimey he designed kartee. Mala is not the way to take name loki mala fad gini jandey aj ini waar ram keha ini waar waheguru paap karee jandey
I m not in fovour of Mala Fernaa
Purpose of Mala
Dear A. S. Aulakh ji,
Why use a Mala? My understanding is that there are various reasons for using the Mala. The simplest one is that it is an implement to provide an indirect method for the measurement of time, without the need to break from your meditation. If one decide to do simran using a mala, then by keeping a count you establish roughly a fixed length of time. These days we would use an alarm. If you have commitments of work or studying, you don't want to end up immersed in your dedication and miss your duties.
The second function of a Mala is to give you a rhythm or "Lah" - just as a tabla is used to keep a constant beat. The Mala achieves a similar beat for your Simran.
The other function is one of concentration. By using the hand, the motor nerves in the arm, the tongue, the mind, the breath, etc. one hopes that you can stop the mind wandering and bring stillness in your thoughts. By this concerted effort, one hopes to gain a better ability to control the impulses of the mind. Just like we do physical exercises to make our body fit; these are mental exercises to make the mind more alert.
Sikhism has a lot to do with conciousness and mortality. You need a good logical and alert mind to be able to achieve these tasks properly. I suppose using beads is one way of training and focusing your mind. I am sure there must be other reasons but these are the ones that come to mind.
Did Hari Singh Nalwa tell beads? I have no idea! It is possible that he may have but one can never tell for certain. It like saying did Guru Gobind Singh ever wear a red turban? We can never answer that question positively and truly as most of us did not exist in the 1600s - but I think most people would say it was possible as Sikhi does not have anything against the colour red! I hope this helps. das, Hari Singh 00:13, 18 June 2007 (EDT) ________________________________________________________________________________________________
Views of little Intelect provided by Great Lord
Dear Aulakh Ji and Hari singh Ji,
When i try to analyze this issue using little own intellect, by taking evedence from SGGS Guru Ji tells us to do Bhakti in the way Bhakat Prahlad and bhakat Dhroo has done quote: "raam japo jeea aisae aisae || dhhroo prehilaadh japiou har jaisae ||1|| Just as Dhroo and Prahlaad meditated on the Lord, so should you meditate on the Lord, O my soul. ||1|| Ang 337 SGGS" Extending argument further we are guded to do bhakti like bhakat Kabir has done.And Kabir ji says in SGGS: "yeh maalaa apanee leejai || Here, Lord, take back Your mala. Ang 656 SGGS Raag Sorith :Sant Kabir" If he was not carrying any mala then which mala he wants to surrender to Supreme Lord.well so far my little intellect.
- i would like to get convinced that in words of Bhai Kahn Singh Ji that "In sikh religion mediatation by counting is not the rule."I agree that there is no direct prohibition of mala pherni practice.Important is with what aim an action or Karma is done.But to end the controversy i get convinced to replace the Image of Sardar Nalua Ji with any other popular image by editors of sikhiwiki.--Guglani 06
- 05, 19 June 2007 (EDT)
Kiv sachiara hoviyy.????....
Hukum razai challna....(profess, listen to, believe in & walk only this way
..sb aapy he sachiaar....
..Nanak Sachiaary Kh A S Aulakh ko sach(TRUTH god) jaan
..Nanak Sachiaary Kh Kakkaji ko sach(TRUTH god)jaan
Akhan jor Chupyy nhi joor....
satgur bajho hor kachi hyy bani.....bani ta kach satgur bajho hor kachii bani....kahindy kachyy sundy kachyy kachi aakh vikhani....Satgur Bajhon hor kachii hayy bani.
- A TRUE Sikh sees no scholars no books no analysis but SatGurBani.
- SatGurBani alone can support SatGurBani no way Mala or ...or... or....
- Gurbani is flawlessly WHITE.
- Gurbani refers to Black Spots
- Manmukhs see it light gray or dark grey & if required any shade of grey.
- Manmukhs put in best efforts to prove that it is Grey not white .
- Pertinent to quoat a punjabi proverb here "sau siany ik matt murkha appoo aapni (countless grey shades can be seen)".
'neecha ander neech jaat neechee hu ati neech....nanak nadri paiyy koodi kudy theese
- Gurbani means nothing but TRUTH. Every Shabad has to be understood in the backdrop of entire myra SatGur poora & poori Bani.
Khana peena pavit hay..... does no way mean that Gurbani permits 'eating, drinking & merry making, as Manmukhs would love it to mean it that way, where ever & whenever they have their way. It reqires scholarly analysis to prove that 3HO is anti Sikhi.
- Gurbani is best understood by neech class of the society.
- Neech class needs no grammer no scholarly analysis.
- Poor man's language can only be learnt from neecha andar neech ban ky aty ja ky.
- No way from Sikhs of INTERNET breed like us.
- Stinking streets of Punjab Villages is the place where Gurbani is understood honoured & revered the way Punjabi Gurmat scholars nay! even junkies understand. Ask a typical punjabi junky in a Punjab village to bow before a Photo, he may respond by shhoting a drink down his throat before he shoots a box on the face of the intruder in his reverance for Gurbani, his junky profile not withstanding.
- In english 'TALK' has to be written as 'TALK' but spoken as 'taak'
- In punjabi when an angry mother tells her daughter "..mr pary..(go & kill yourself) " She is not issuing a commandment for her to commit suicide.
- Nanak sahib blended himself with the culture ( Hindu temples... might have even used mala to get closer to FALSE IDOLs of TRUTH god ie Pandas ....Bodh temples....Macca etc...) he studied for sake of having a closer look at the comples maze & deadly tentakles of FALSEHOOD & for staying out of trouble.
- In Gurbani if terms 'Mala' & 'yoga' etce are used, it no way means that we forget Mool Mantar which expects us to become nothing but Khalsa (holding a Mala in one hand & sowrd in another. There is no dearth of such like classic works of art in India....Kind courtsy FALSEHOOD....not That SikhiWiki does not have such works of art. Sheik Fareed is begging for his life from crows, Nanak Sahib is counting beads before having his breakfast of fruits positioned before him by Sikhs who have left him alone to grant him his part of the privacy).
Fearless Kirti Purush Nanak who speaks fearlessly & flawlessly..... jo tau prem khelan ka chau...... .....Soora so pahichaniyy jo lary deen ky hyyt purjaa purjaa katt mryy......do need mala to draw some spirituality through cosmos blending down to the naad from his left norstle(whatever that may mean! no not at all funny we need to do better)
O! us SIKHS of SatGurBani let us pray to no one but our ownself that
mat vich rattan jwahr maanak jy ik gur ki sikh suni.....
O myry gura! (TRUTH god) please just make me understand & believe that Gurbani is alredy written on our heart but please please give us the light to read it. Unless you are on my right side no scholar can teach it to me...
- Such alight is avalable from Guru's issue counter during the office hours. Through the day, TRUTH god has bussiness to attend to.
Appy patti kalam aap upper lyykh we tu.....
- Nanak loves to discuss 'Death'. Manmukhs worry about authenticity of Mala, Yoga, vegeterianism, spirituality, ...,.....,...
Nanak has to be aided by Mala for Time keeping & count of 'Naam Jap'. Makes sense there were no watches like we have today.
- It is unfortunate that we Sikhs, spend all the Net resources on analysing Mala, Vegiterianism , Yoga, 3HO, Spritualism, ...chanting, ...repeating, ... and not analysing NAAM DAAN & NAAM ISHNAAN.
- "Naam Simran koi gorakh Dhanda nahi hyy", it is thinking nothing but Gur (ideas) of becoming TRUTHFULL. Let us Sikhs be first dedicate ourself to truthfullness as beatifully & flawlessly brought out by Kh User: A. S. Aulakh Sahib SACHIAARA.
Aulakh Sir, Hau Kurbany jau tuhady hau kurbany jau.....
- There is only one way of learning GurBani.
Gaviyy, suniyy, manniyyy, vichariyy aty mn rkhiyy bhau......during amrit vela to begin with & then following it through the day. No where Gurbani says that it has to be disputed, dibated, wrangeled over & analysed to be understood. But it says loud & Clear Gaviyy, suniyy, manniyyy vichariyy aty mn rkhiyy bhau......
Amrit Vela sc nau vadiaai (objective, rational & universal thought process.....) veecaar.
- the very start point of Sikhi Amrit Vela is getting lost in din of Vedic cultural & ritualistic practices on net.
- Aaap Japyy Avryy naam Jpavyy Udham kryy uth ky parbhati ISHNAAN kryy aty gurbani dy sagar vich navy the very foundation of Sikhi on the quiet pops up as, NAAM JAPOO (read 'beena sochy ratto & use a mala for that') Vand CHHAKO (read bloat yourself up with food) & KIRAT karo(read ISHNAAN ie introspection na karo). That much for a Society which begs pardon from GOD's Own language daily during ardaas.
Akhar lag kanna bhul chuk muaf.....''O Satgur please pardon us if we Sikh.s inadvertantly lapsed on understanding your language even by an iota bit
jithy bolan thakeeyy oothy changee chup.... vaad vivaad kahoo sy nahee.... ....Hau apradhi guneh gar hau bemukh manda. ..Simr mureeda dhadeea Satgur Bakshinda
--Nanak Ghar ky Goly aty Khalsy dy dar dy KuttyMutias 21 Jun 07
Surprised over the great debate
When last i looked there were two comments on this page. I asked how or what 'telling beads' meant as i thought like in Hindu, Catholic and Muslim religions they were only used to count the no. of reps of a prayer. Not withstanding that certain types of beads are said to be more auspicious than others in Hinduism that is were i thought Guru Nanak was directing his comments.
Good thing that Guru Nanak is the only one to use a forest (the Lakhi forest) to sum his prayers, or was it the no. of prayers or the no. of trees. the article on wikipedia the site gives no refs and supports the no of prayers. any opinions? is telling beads some occult thing or just numbers and keeping count?
Jesus, said to not let your left hand know what your right hand was up to in matters of prayer-ie keep your pieity to yourself, and your prayers private, your support or donations secret as well, yet Muslims think it important for everyone being seen at namaz. if one thinks holding beads is a statement - look at me see how Holy i am! should all the photos of Sikhs marching to the fronts of WWI and II with their Granthi in front with a Chanani over the SGGS on his head be cropped out, surely this is showing, like the beads, that those men took their Religion seriously even taking their Guru into battle with them. confused, maybe i just don't know enough to see the arguments merit. Allenwalla 20:32, 18 April 2008 (MDT)
Well the new illustration, seems to have ended the debate. Allenwalla 08:52, 3 September 2009 (UTC) Wearing beads doesn't seem to be a problem, a hand counting them (former illustration/date unknown) seems to be controversial.