Talk:Guru Granth Sahib on meat/Archive 1
Pauri of Bhai Gurdas to Include
‘An elephant’s flesh is not edible for he is full of pride, The lion is also full of pride of its strength so no one eats it either, Humble is the goat it gains honor in the here after and this world, In all celebrations is it [the meat], acknowledged, It [the meat], sanctifies religious gatherings and feasts, Its meat is ‘Pavitar’ [good/sacred] for the householder, From its entrails [tendons] is string for instruments made that when they play, attracts holy men in meditation From it’s skin are shoes made, which holy feet wear as they go to seek holy protection [to Guru]. With its skin are bound drums with which ‘Kirtan’ [religious songs], are sung, Hence, they [goat-skin bound drums] give great comfort. The holy gathering is coming into the Guru’s protection.’ (Bhai Gurdas Ji’s Varan, Bhai Gurdas, ‘Vaar 23, Pauri 13’)
Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji First, and then Bhai Gurdas
That should be the order. All shabads are equally important. So please put the Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji first and then put Bhai Gurdas. Bhai Gurdas maybe the key, but Bhai Gurdas would have nothing to open if the Sri Guru Granth Sahib didn't exist. It is like putting the "cart before the horse".
Without the key the lock cannot be opened
I understand what you say about Gurbani and agree that Gurbani has more importance than Bhai Gurdas ji's Varan but I think the Varan have a special place for Sikhism because Guru Sahib himself particularly called the Varan the key to Gurbani - to me it means that without the key, the lock (Gurbani) cannot be unlocked. In my opinion, you need this key to unlock the mysteries of Gurbani. And that is why I have put it first.
The key comes first so that the reader is in possession of the key before he or she approaches the lock (ie: Gurbani) so that they can open this lock with ease and do not have any hindrance.
I hope you agree – but if you don't then I will bow to your request in this instance as it is more important that we have a little bit of "give and take" in these matters. Please feel free to change the position of the Varan to after the Shabads or just let me know and I will change the position.
Many thanks for your huge amount of time and dedication, input and help in promoting the divine message of our Guru. --Hari Singh 14:42, 13 August 2006 (CDT)
You Need to Make The Decision
Outsiders may get the impression that Bhai Gurdas's Varan are more important to Sikhs than the Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji. The rest I leave to you.
Making Changes to an Article:
Please do not change the layout on any article without first discussing it on the talk page of the article. Once the discussion has taken place, the decision will be made as to change or not change the layout or content of that page. Some users have spent many months working on this project and it is unfair for a newcomer to join and start making dramatic changes to these articles. Please respect and give thought to the other contributors, who may have spent a lot of time on this project. Regarding the article SGGS on Meat and other topics which are Controversial the following applies:
As this is a "Controversial Topic", strict rules apply as to what can be put on pages dealing with this topic and the changes that can be made. The creation of new pages is not allowed until the existing pages have grown to a reasonable size. Please discuss matters here before you do anything to this page.
The SGGS on Meat is purely a page for Gurbani and other recognised texts – ie Bhai Gurdas' Varan, etc. This is a "Controlled Page" and strictly no other text is allowed apart from a "controlled introduction" which cannot be changed. So please only add recognised Gurbani text and verified translations. No other text will be allowed without first discussing the matter.
As an off-shoot of the "Controlled Page", we have the Vegetarianism and Vegetarianism Other Views pages. These are called the "Supporting Pages". These are the pages where the differing opinions have to be stated. Most users will only be able to change these pages provided the changes are first discussed. Each of these pages should just deal with the views, opinions and research to do with the opinion being supported. ie: Normally this would be the title of the page. References and historic records must be given wherever an opinion is stated or needed. If these references are not given, after warnings, these views will be removed. Links to other websites may not be sufficient as anyone can now set up a website and state their personally views/historic record. We require support from Gurbani, Bhai Gurdas Varan, recorded historical material or historical books with the necessary research to establish the authenticity of the material.
I would ask you to co-operate with this policy so that we can provide a credible view of Sikhism to the public. If you have any queries, please do not hesitate to put them on my user page.
|SGGS Page 467 Full Shabad|
Unnin Mandy payr nan rakhio......... Darpan Pg0467-
SGGS quotations ONLY
Please note that all statements on this article SGGS on Meat MUST be supported by tuks from SGGS or other historical records or sources otherwise the added material will be instantly removed. If you continue to misuse the edit facility, you will be barred from making changes. --Hari Singh 16:12, 27 July 2006 (CDT)
"gaibaan haivaan haraam kustanee murdaar bakhoraa-ay" AND "murdar"
|SGGS Page 723 Full Shabad|
| ਬੰਦੇ ਚਸਮ ਦੀਦੰ ਫਨਾਇ ॥ |
ਦਨਂ”ੀਆ ਮਰਦਾਰ ਖਰਦਨੀ ਗਾਫਲ ਹਵਾਇ ॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
banday chasam deedaN fanaa-ay.
O human being, whatever you can see with your eyes, shall perish.
The above line says "Haraam" (impure) to which the opposite is "Halaal"(pure). "Murdar" does not mean kill, as in refrence to animals. Murdar is only used in refrences to human death. I think this lines with refrence to this and diet should be removed from this page. (posted by NeutralObserver on 5 August 2006 at 12:45)
Reply by HS to NeutralObserver
Many thanks for your valued contribution. I have added the link to the Shabad so we all know what we are talking about.
I agree with your observation that "haraam" is almost "impure" although I would have said forbidden, sinful and that this is opposite to "halal" which in one context does mean pure/legal but it can nowadays also mean "killed /slaughtered" subject to the muslim way.
I have carried out a search via Srigranth.org and 2 dictionaries for the word Murdaa and Murdaar. I list my results below. I am sorry that this does not appear to support your view that a Murdaa only refers to a human dead body. Unfortunately, it appears to support the view that a Murdaa is any dead body
Please note the translation of the word "murdaar" from
- 1 Srigranth.org
- 2 Dictionary of Guru Granth Sahib by Surinder Singh Kohli
- 3 Punjabi - English English - Punjabi Dictionary by Krishan Kumar Goswami
- from 1: SGGS Gurmukhi-Gurmukhi Dictionary: ਲੋਥ ਤਲ ਅਵਿਤਰ ਵਸਤ, ਹਰਾਮ
- from 1 & 2 (p233): SGGS Gurmukhi-English Dictionary: Per. n. Corpse, dead body, corrion
SGGS Gurmukhi-English Data provided by Harjinder Singh Gill, Santa Monica, CA, USA.
- from 1: English Translation: Dead. Exhumation.
- from 3 (p286): Murdaa - Corpse, dead body, carcass, Lifeless, Deceased
- Murdaar Lifeless, dead
- from 1: Mahan Kosh Encyclopedia ਫ਼ਾ. __ ਲੋਥ. ਸ਼ਵ. ਪਰਾਣ ਰਹਿਤ ਦੇਹ। ੨. ਸਵਸਤਕਾਰ ਅਤੇ ਸ਼ੂਰਵੀਰਤਾ ਰਹਿਤ. “ਅੰਧੀ ਰਯਤਿ ਗਿਆਨ ਵਿਹੂਣੀ ਭਾਹਿ ਭਰੇ ਮਰਦਾਰ”. (ਵਾਰ ਆਸਾ) ਭੋਹ (ਭੂਸੇ) ਨਾਲ ਭਰੀਆਂ ਲੇਖਾਂ। ੩. ਭਾਵ ਮਰਦਾਰ ਤੱਲ ਅਪਵਿਤਰ ਚੀਜ਼. ਧਰਮ ਅਨਸਾਰ ਨਾ ਖਾਣ ਯੋਗਯ. ਹਰਾਮ. “ਕੂੜ ਬੋਲਿ ਮਰਦਾਰ ਖਾਇ”. (ਮਃ ੧. ਵਾਰ ਮਾਝ) “ਦਨੀਆ ਮਰਦਾਰਖਰਦਨੀ”. (ਤਿਲੰ ਮਃ ੫) “ਠਗਿ ਖਾਧਾ ਮਰਦਾਰ”. (ਸਰੀ ਮਃ ੧).
Mahan Kosh data provided by Bhai Baljinder Singh (RaraSahib Wale); See http://www.ik13.com
Please refer to the Shabad given below and see what you think? - Only 2 lines quoted, but please click on the link to see the whole of the Shabad. Please give me your view of each lines.
|SGGS Page 141 Full Shabad|
|ਹਕ ਪਰਾਇਆ ਨਾਨਕਾ ਉਸ ਸੂਅਰ ਉਸ ਗਾਇ ॥ ਗਰ ਪੀਰ ਹਾਮਾ ਤਾ ਭਰੇ ਜਾ ਮਰਦਾਰ ਨ ਖਾਇ ॥ |
hak paraa-i-aa naankaa us soo-ar us gaa-ay. gur peer haamaa taa bharay jaa murdaar na khaa-ay.
Our Guru, our Spiritual Guide, stands by us, if we do not eat those carcasses.
I sorry that at present your evidence does not support warranting a change. Could you please explain further why you feel that this Shabad should not be under this section. I will be much obliged if you could explain to me exactly what message this Shabad conveys to you.
I appreciate your help and I hope we will come to an amicable understanding on this matter and that our difference here however large will not distract us from pursuing the higher goal of promoting Sikh values globally. Many thanks for your time and continued interest and support of the site. --Hari Singh 11:00, 5 August 2006 (CDT)
The Other Translation Is Different
On the same page the other translation is different:
ਮਃ ੧ ॥ मः १ ॥ mehlaa 1. First Guru!
ਹਕ ਪਰਾਇਆ ਨਾਨਕਾ ਉਸ ਸੂਅਰ ਉਸ ਗਾਇ ॥ हकढ़ पराइआ नानका उसढ़ सूअर उसढ़ गाइ ॥ hak paraa-i-aa naankaa us soo-ar us gaa-ay. Nanak, another's right is swine for him (the Musalman) and cow for him (the Hindu).
ਗਰ ਪੀਰ ਹਾਮਾ ਤਾ ਭਰੇ ਜਾ ਮਰਦਾਰ ਨ ਖਾਇ ॥ गढ़रढ़ पीरढ़ हामा ता भरे जा मढ़रदारढ़ न खाइ ॥ gur peer haamaa taa bharay jaa murdaar na khaa-ay. The spiritual guide and the prophet shall stand surety only then, if man eats not carrion.
Also I am puzzled as where the word "those" come from in "gur peer haamaa taa bharay jaa murdaar na khaa-ay"?
These translations need working on.
The Spirit Of The Shabad
The spirit of the shabad does not warrant itself in these cases to narrowly mean issue surrounding meat. If you wish to see what Guru Nanak's view then you should quote his shabad. I am sure you know which one I mean. -- NeutralObserver 09:44, 6 August 2006
Reply to "Spirit of the Shabad" by HS
I am all for supporting you in awakening the spirit of all Shabads in the SGGS and please accept that I do not want to narrow the meaning of Gurbani – My prime aim is foremost to learn the real meaning of each tuk of Gurbani – First at a "syntax" level and then moral level and ultimately at the spiritual level.
Please feel free to quote any Shabad that you wish as it can only be a help to the discussion – I am not sure which Shabad you mean, please give me the page number and I am sure I will see what you mean.
I hope you will accept that I am as keen as anyone else to learn the deeper meaning of the Guru's message but feel that it can only be done with a frank, open and unflustered positions on this issue. What I mean is that the fact that I don't eat meat now and someone else may eat meat, should not have an overriding impact on what we say; how we research a subject; what we present in a discussion; and our general attitude to how we say things, etc. Let us be frank and completely open and I am sure that the Guru will then guide us to the correct path.
If we are entrenched in our positions then that is Manmat – Let us together explore what our Gurus have said and then see if we can or cannot follow His word. We all accept that to keep Hair; not drink alcohol; not smoke; etc is Gurmat. Do we all follow these teachings – Well, obviously not. So, in the end why should someone who cannot follow these clear guidance be discussing this matter about whether meat is allowed or not allowed if they have not got the guts to follow all already clearly established issues that are totally accepted by the Panth.
Lets only discuss this matter if on coming to a conclusion, the participants will without fail follow the outcome of the discussion or have the intention of following the result of the discussion. If this is not so, then what is the point of the discussion? We have to have a balance between knowledge for the sake of knowledge and the principles to Gurmat. It is our duty to follow the word to the Guru once we know clearly what it is! --Hari Singh 16:16, 6 August 2006 (CDT)
Is This the Shabad Neutral Observer?
(For the complete Shabad - See Main article page or click on link to Srigranth.org)
|SGGS Page 1289 Full Shabad|
| ਮਾਸ ਮਾਸ ਕਰਿ ਮੂਰਖ ਝਗੜੇ ਗਿਆਨ ਧਿਆਨ ਨਹੀ ਜਾਣੈ ॥ ਕਉਣ ਮਾਸ ਕਉਣ ਸਾਗ ਕਹਾਵੈ ਕਿਸ ਮਹਿ ਪਾਪ ਸਮਾਣੇ ॥ |
ਗੈਂਡਾ ਮਾਰਿ ਹੋਮ ਜਗ ਕੀਝ ਦੇਵਤਿਆ ਕੀ ਬਾਣੇ ॥ ਮਾਸ ਛੋਡਿ ਬੈਸਿ ਨਕ ਪਕੜਹਿ ਰਾਤੀ ਮਾਣਸ ਖਾਣੇ ॥
maas maas kar moorakh jhagrhay gi-aan Dhi-aan nahee jaanai. ka-un maas ka-un saag kahaavai kis meh paap samaanay.
The fools argue about flesh and meat, but they know nothing about meditation and spiritual wisdom.
When Going To The Butchers
When going to the butchers, people do not order Corpse, dead body, corrion or Corpse, dead body, carcass, Lifeless, Deceased :
from 1: SGGS Gurmukhi-Gurmukhi Dictionary: ਲੋਥ ਤਲ ਅਵਿਤਰ ਵਸਤ, ਹਰਾਮ from 1 & 2 (p233): SGGS Gurmukhi-English Dictionary: Per. n. Corpse, dead body, corrion SGGS Gurmukhi-English Data provided by Harjinder Singh Gill, Santa Monica, CA, USA.
from 1: English Translation: Dead. Exhumation. from 3 (p286): Murdaa - Corpse, dead body, carcass, Lifeless, Deceased Murdaar Lifeless, dead
They may say "Maas" or "Flesh".
Murdaar is a word used in connection with human bodies. If a pile of dead goats was lying on the ground, people would not say "Mudaar" in refrence to them. If however dead bodies were lying there of human, people would refer to them as Murdaar. I suppose Murdaar is more of a respectful term and therfore used in conjuction with humans.
I don't know how else to explain it, but Murdaar in this context sounds very funny to me when I say it in Punjabi.
When Going To Vegetable Stand - Reply to Ridiculous
Point Number 1 Using a word in an Usual Situations
I don't think that your post really addresses the issue of the definition of the word because, for example, I would not go to a Veg-stand and ask for 2 kgs of Dead carrot" or "1 dozen dead apples", etc", would I? So your analogy goes not actually take us any further with the definition. So I agree that it sounds funny – But that is not how you check to see if the word's definition is correct. If you saw a dead cow in the lake, would you ask – Keya yaa Gaoo ka murdaa hai?
Point Number 2 More Dictionaries
The definition of the words is taken from renowned sources and must be deemed reliable. So the word Murdaa means Corpse, dead body, carcass, Lifeless, Deceased and the word Murdaar means Lifeless, dead
- Translation at site: Urdu Dictionary gives the result "Dead"
- Dictionary at: this site gives the entry: P murdĝr [mur(dan), q.v.+dĝr = tĝr = Pehl. tar = Zend tar = S. तारढ़], s.m. A dead body, a corpse; a carcass;--carrion; a piece of carrion;--adj. Dead; impure, unclean, polluted; dirty; squalid; ugly; profane; obscene;--intj. You carrion! wretch! vile creature!:--murdĝr- ḵẖẉĝr, s.m. An eater of carrion; a carrion-crow; a vul- ture:--murdĝr-sang, vulg. murdĝ-sang, s.m. Dross of lead; protoxide of lead, litharge.
- Dictionary at: this site gives the entry: murdah: P adj. dead/weak/decrepit
- Dictionary at: this site gives the entry: Murdah - Dead, Decrepit, Lifeless, Weak, Wimp
Point Number 3 the Word "Murdaar" in Gurbani
In the Shabad below, the word "Murdaar" is used twice:
|SGGS Page 723 Full Shabad|
| ਬੰਦੇ ਚਸਮ ਦੀਦੰ ਫਨਾਇ ॥ |
ਦਨਂ”ੀਆ ਮਰਦਾਰ ਖਰਦਨੀ ਗਾਫਲ ਹਵਾਇ ॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
banday chasam deedaN fanaa-ay.
O human being, whatever you can see with your eyes, shall perish.
I think looking at the third line, Bani say: "Like a …beast – they kill & eat …" Surely, in most cases, beasts kill animal & eat them. In very few cases, would it be a human that would be killed by a beast. I hope you agree with this statement.
I think we can say with confidence that the word "Mudaa" mean Corpse, dead body, carcass, Lifeless, Deceased
Can We Have The Entire Pauri 17 (She Goat)?
Here is Pauri from:
Page 104 Dr Jodh Singh - Varan Bhai Gurdas
'A goat was caught by a lion and while about to die, it gave out a horse laugh. The surprised lion asked why it was so happy at such a moment (of its death). Humbly the goat replied that the testicles of our male progeny are crushed in oder to castrate them. We eat only wild plants of arid regions yet our skin is peeled and pounded. I think about the plight of those (like you) who cut the throat of others and eat their flesh. The body of both the proud and the humble will become dust ultimately, but, even the body of the arrogant (lion) is inedible and that of the humble (goat) attains the status of edible. All who came to this world have to die ultimately.'
Here is Pauri from page:
'Lion catches a goat; As the goat is dying, it begins to laugh. In awe the lion asks, why are you laughing? Humbly the goat says: Our sons are destroyed (castrated). We only eat wild plants and suffer being slayed & skinned alive. Those who cut our throats and eat our flesh, what will be their plight? Proud and arrogant their bodies are a waste; inedible and fruitless. All who come to the world will eventually die.'
I am mistaken. It seems you have used a different translation from Dr Jodh Singh.
Reply by HS
- Reply I don't understand what you mean? The full translation is there. Please explain why you say "Can We Have The Entire Pauri?" Which part do you say is missing? I have checked the beginning of each of the 7 lines and they all appear there for the Gurmukhi and English Hari Singh 18:33, 23 August 2006 (CDT)
A Shabad To Include
An interesting shabad to include in this:
Page 143 of the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji
mehlaa 1. First Mehl:
vaykh je mithaa kati-aa kat kut baDhaa paa-ay. Look, and see how the sugar-cane is cut down. After cutting away its branches, its feet are bound together into bundles,
khundhaa andar rakh kai dayn so mal sajaa-ay. and then, it is placed between the wooden rollers and crushed.
ras kas tatar paa-ee-ai tapai tai villaa-ay. What punishment is inflicted upon it! Its juice is extracted and placed in the cauldron; as it is heated, it groans and cries out.
bhee so fog samaalee-ai dichai ag jaalaa-ay. And then, the crushed cane is collected and burnt in the fire below.
naanak mithai patree-ai vaykhhu lokaa aa-ay. ||2|| Nanak: come, people, and see how the sweet sugar-cane is treated! ||2||
On one level it is metaphorical, but on another level it shows how the Guru's saw life in everything around them.
Although this is a beautiful Shabad, as its not linked to Meat directly, I don't think we can include it here. May be we will start a new article on Maharaj's advice on behaviour in life based on observation of life. --Hari Singh 06:55, 1 September 2006 (CDT)
Misuse of Gurbani against meat eating
Reply to A S Aulakh by Hari Singh
Bhai Sahib ji, Waheguru ji ka Khalsa, Waheguru ji ki Fateh
My respect for your wisdom is beginning to evaporate - I find it unbelievable that you can so seriously mis-translated each of the above shabads. This is unacceptable and I ask you to amend these translations to the standard translations of which we have 5 famous ones. Choose whichever one you want.
Shabad 1 on p 1102
Approved translation is:
- "You kill living beings, and call it a righteous action. Tell me, brother, what would you call an unrighteous action? You call yourself the most excellent sage; then who would you call a butcher? ||2||"
Can you explain which lines of Gurbani translate to this:
Your incorrect translation is: "On one hand you people(the pandits) call the meat-sellers as sinnners and on the other hand you yourself are performing the "bali" (sacrifice of animal or human). How can you have such dual policies?. If you can perform the "bali" and yet like to be called as best sages then how can the meat-sellers be sinners??"
How can you justify this. Where did you get this translation from? Who are you trying to kid? If you wish to justify your translation, do a line by line list of Gurbani tuk followed by your translation.
Shabad 2 on page 140
|SGGS Page 140 Full Shabad|
| ਸਲੋਕ ਮਃ ੧ ॥ |
ਜੇ ਰਤ ਲਗੈ ਕਪੜੈ ਜਾਮਾ ਹੋਇ ਪਲੀਤ ॥ ਜੋ ਰਤ ਪੀਵਹਿ ਮਾਣਸਾ ਤਿਨ ਕਿਉ ਨਿਰਮਲ ਚੀਤ ॥
Salok mehlĝ 1.
Jė raṯ lagai kapṛai jĝmĝ hoė palīṯ. Jo raṯ pīveh mĝṇsĝ ṯin kio nirmal cẖīṯ.
Shalok, First Mehl:
If one's clothes are stained with blood, the garment becomes polluted.
Approved translation is given above.
Your incorrect translation is:"Its believed that if the jama (worn clothes) get tarnished with blood one cannot do namaaj. How can those people be untarnished (pure) who earn by illegitimate means and oppress others humans?. O Nanak! remember the Almighty with a pure heart all other external showcasing is useless"
Again explain and justify your translation!
Shabad 3 on page 201
Approved translation is:
- "He performs worship ceremonies, applies the ceremonial tilak mark to his forehead, and takes his ritual cleansing baths; he pulls out his knife, and demands donations. ||2|| With his mouth, he recites the Vedas in sweet musical measures, and yet he does not hesitate to take the lives of others. ||3||"
Your incorrect translation is:"The pandits go to the home of their followers/hosts and open half of their "dhoti" (cloth worn for lower half of body) and spread it on the ground and sit and eat there like a donkey. He applies "tilak" (mark on forehead) and takes bath and perform "pooja" (a form of worshiping where the idols etc. are worshipped). He eats from his host but does not think once while betraying the same host by misguiding him by telling lies about heaven and hell and frightening them. From his mouth, the pandit pretends speaking very sweet and speaks of vedas, but from the inside he is a cheat and never feels ashamed of betraying his host. O Nanak! the one who has been blessed by the Almighty that person remembers the Almighty from his heart"
Again explain how you justify such a vast difference.
Shabad 4 on page 16-17
This Shabad does not deal with this subject matter at all. I can't understand why you have included it here.
Shabad 5 on page 1350
|SGGS Page 1350 Full Shabad|
ਬੇਦ ਕਤੇਬ ਕਹਹ ਮਤ ਝੂਠੇ ਝੂਠਾ ਜੋ ਨ ਬਿਚਾਰੈ ॥
Approved translation of the shabad is given above.
Your incorrect translation is:"Oh mulla you yourself say that God is present in all, then what god are you doing by killing and gifting the chicken (murgi) to God. What good can you do by presenting God's part to God? Oh Mulla! you tell the orders of God to the people, but the doubts of your own mind are not clear. Oh Mulla! you catch a chicken etc. and bring it to sacrifice its body (soul less dead part which is just made of phsical matter) in the name of God. The Almigthy is present everywhere, then what did you make to sacrifice and gift to the almighty?
Oh Mulla! if you keep bad thoughts in your mind and read Quran, then what is the benefit of that? What the benefit of the ritual cleaning feet, hands etc.? What is the virtue of washing face? What is the benefit of bowing your head in the Mosque? What the is benefit of going to pilgrimage to Mecca?
O Mulla! you are polluted within, you have not developed the understanding of that pious master, you have not understood his truth. Living in this confusion you have strayed away and the your mind is polluted with hypocrisies."
With due respect - this is a rubbish translation - you are just deceiving yourself and other who care to listen to you.
We have previously gone over this shabad word by word - here is a copy from SGGS 1350:
Breakdown of each word of the Shabad
- 1: Original Text
- 2: Transliteration in English
- 3: Translation by Dr Sant Singh Khalsa
- 4: Translation by Bhai Manmohan Singh
- 5: Translation by Dr Gopal Singh
- 6 onwards: Word by Word translation (various Sources used)
ਪਰਭਾਤੀ ॥ parbhaatee. Parbhati.
|Line 1: ਬੇਦ ਕਤੇਬ ਕਹਹ ਮਤ ਝੂਠੇ ਝੂਠਾ ਜੋ ਨ ਬਿਚਾਰੈ ॥|
|bayd katayb kahhu mat jhoothay jhoothaa jo na bichaarai.|
|Do not say that the Vedas, the Bible and the Koran are false. Those who do not contemplate them are false.|
|Say not that the Vedas and Muslim books are false. False is he, who reflects not on them.|
|Call not false the Vedas or the Semitic Texts : for, false is he who gives not thought to them.|
|bayd = Vedas||katayb =The Books – Bible & Koran||kahhu =Say|
|mat = Never||jhoothay = False||jhoothaa =Wrong|
|jo = Those||na = don't||bichaarai. = reflect / analyse|
|Line 2: ਜਉ ਸਭ ਮਹਿ ਝਕ ਖਦਾਇ ਕਹਤ ਹਉ ਤਉ ਕਿਉ ਮਰਗੀ ਮਾਰੈ ॥੧॥|
|ja-o sabh meh ayk khudaa-ay kahat ha-o ta-o ki-o murgee maarai.|
|You say that the One Lord is in all, so why do you kill chickens?|
|When thou say that one God abides in all, then why kill thou a hen?|
|He is like the one who says God is in all, and yet slaughters life6 (for food). |
|ja-o means If / when||sabh = all||meh = within|
|ayk = one||khudaa-ay = God||kahat = say|
|ha-o = that||ta-o = then||ki-o = why|
|murgee = chicken||maarai = kill|
|Line 3:ਮਲਾਂ ਕਹਹ ਨਿਆਉ ਖਦਾਈ ॥|
|mulaaN kahhu ni-aa-o khudaa-ee.|
|O Mullah, tell me: is this God's Justice?|
|O Mullah, say thou, if this is the God's justice?|
|O Mullah, say thou, if this is the Justice of thy God:|
|mulaaN = Mullah||kahhu = What||ni-aa-o = Justice||khudaa-ee. = God|
|Line 4:ਤੇਰੇ ਮਨ ਕਾ ਭਰਮ ਨ ਜਾਈ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥|
|tayray man kaa bharam na jaa-ee.|
|The doubts of your mind have not been dispelled.|
|The mind's doubt is dispelled not. Pause.|
|Nay, nay, only thou art rid not of the complexes of the mind.|
|tayray=your||man =mind||kaa = of||bharam = doubt||na = no/not||jaa-ee = dispelled|
|Line 5:ਪਕਰਿ ਜੀਉ ਆਨਿਆ ਦੇਹ ਬਿਨਾਸੀ ਮਾਟੀ ਕਉ ਬਿਸਮਿਲਿ ਕੀਆ ॥|
|pakar jee-o aani-aa dayh binaasee maatee ka-o bismil kee-aa.|
|You seize a living creature, and then bring it home and kill its body; you have killed only the clay.|
|Thou seize and bring a living being and kill its body. Thou has merely killed the clay and not the soul.|
|Thou seizest life and killest the 'dust' of its body and callest it pure food|
|pakar= catch/seize||jee-o =life form||aani-aa = bring|
|dayh = body||binaasee = destruction/diaster||maatee = Dust|
|ka-o = make||bismil = slayed/slaughtered||kee-aa. = do/done|
|Line 6:ਜੋਤਿ ਸਰੂਪ ਅਨਾਹਤ ਲਾਗੀ ਕਹ ਹਲਾਲ ਕਿਆ ਕੀਆ ॥੨॥|
|jot saroop anaahat laagee kaho halaal ki-aa kee-aa.|
|The light of the soul passes into another form. So tell me, what have you killed?|
|Its imperishable soul is attached to another body. Say then, what has thou slaughtered.|
|But, the undying, pure Soul, Mergeth in God : then dost thou partake of the pure, or the impure part of it?|
|jot = soul/light||saroop = body||anaahat = ever live / without end||laagee = join|
|kaho = say/speak||halaal =slaughtered||ki-aa = what for||kee-aa. = do/done|
|Line 7:ਕਿਆ ਉਜੂ ਪਾਕ ਕੀਆ ਮਹ ਧੋਇਆ ਕਿਆ ਮਸੀਤਿ ਸਿਰ ਲਾਇਆ ॥|
|ki-aa ujoo paak kee-aa muhu Dho-i-aa ki-aa maseet sir laa-i-aa.|
|And what good are your purifications? Why do you bother to wash your face? And
why do you bother to bow your head in the mosque?
|And, what is the use of the purification of thine hands, feet and mouth and the washing of thy face and What use thy head's prostration in the mosque?|
|What use is it to purify thyself through ablutions, and to bow down to thy God in the mosque?|
|ki-aa =what||ujoo =wash hands & feet||paak = pure||kee-aa = do/done|
|muhu = face||Dho-i-aa = wash||ki-aa = what for||maseet =mosque|
|Line 8:ਜਉ ਦਿਲ ਮਹਿ ਕਪਟ ਨਿਵਾਜ ਗਜਾਰਹ ਕਿਆ ਹਜ ਕਾਬੈ ਜਾਇਆ ॥੩॥|
|ja-o dil meh kapat nivaaj gujaarahu ki-aa haj kaabai jaa-i-aa.|
|Your heart is full of hypocrisy; what good are your prayers or your pilgrimage to Mecca?|
|What avails thee to say prayer and to go the pilgrimage of Mecca, when there is malice in thy mind?|
|When thy heart is Impure; and while thou sayest the five prayers, these avail thee not, nay, not even thy pilgrimage to the Kaaba.|
|ja-o= If / when||dil = heart||meh= in||kapat = deceit/fraud/hypocrisy|
|nivaaj = reside||gujaarahu = 5 Prayers||ki-aa = what for||haj = pilgrimage|
|kaabai = Kaaba||jaa-i-aa.= go|
|Line 9:ਤੂੰ ਨਾਪਾਕ ਪਾਕ ਨਹੀ ਸੂਝਿਆ ਤਿਸ ਕਾ ਮਰਮ ਨ ਜਾਨਿਆ ॥|
|tooN naapaak paak nahee soojhi-aa tis kaa maram na jaani-aa.|
|You are impure; you do not understand the Pure Lord. You do not know His Mystery.|
|Thou are impure and understand not the pure Lord. His mystery thou know not.|
|Thou art impure from within, and Knowest not the mystery of thy Pure, Immaculate God.|
|soojhi-aa = realise||tis = that/it/he/she||kaa = of||maram =mystery|
|na = not||jaani-aa.= know|
|Line 10:ਕਹਿ ਕਬੀਰ ਭਿਸਤਿ ਤੇ ਚੂਕਾ ਦੋਜਕ ਸਿਉ ਮਨ ਮਾਨਿਆ ॥੪॥੪॥|
|kahi kabeer bhisat tay chookaa dojak si-o man maani-aa.|
|Says Kabeer, you have missed out on paradise; your mind is set on hell.|
|Says Kabir, thou has missed paradise and thy soul is reconciled with hell.|
|Sayeth Kabir: “Thiswise thou hast missed entry into thy Lord’s Heaven, for, thy mind is pleased with Hell”. [4-4]|
|kahi = says||kabeer||bhisat=paradise||tay = from|
|chookaa = removed||dojak = hell||si-o = from||man = mind|
Why to discuss Meat?
Reply to Hari Singh ji
Dear A.S. Aulakh ji,
Your action of removing the links to the correct translations is not acceptable! Why did you do that? Are you not happy with Srigranth? Would you prefer Sikhitothemax?
Each reference to Gurbani in Gurmukhi must be linked to approved translation that is freely available on the net - Srigranth is just one source. So I have reverted this change made by you. The readers must be able to see the translation in English of these shabads and decide for themselves.
Professor Sahib Singh's work is in Punjabi not English - Nowhere have you used his Punjabi work in your submissions on SikhiWiki - You quoted in English - Where did you get this English translation from? Did you make it up yourself? Nowhere has Professor Sahib Singh (PSS) written the Gurbani meanings in English as far as I know! Your translation into English is incorrect - You must correct it by reference to the many approved translations that are available.
I have looked at the Punjabi explanation by PSS's and it does not fit in with your English translation at all -(page 1350)
"ਅਰਥ:- (ਹੇ ਹਿੰਦੂ ਤੇ ਮਸਲਮਾਨ ਵੀਰੋ!) ਵੇਦਾਂ ਜਾਂ ਕਰਾਨ ਆਦਿਕ (ਇਕ ਦੂਜੇ ਦੀਆਂ) ਧਰਮ-ਪਸਤਕਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਝੂਠੀਆਂ ਨਾਹ ਆਖੋ । ਝੂਠਾ ਤਾਂ ਉਹ ਬੰਦਾ ਹੈ ਜੋ ਇਹਨਾਂ ਧਰਮ-ਪਸਤਕਾਂ ਦੀ ਵਿਚਾਰ ਨਹੀਂ ਕਰਦਾ । (ਭਲਾ, ਹੇ ਮੱਲਾਂ!) ਜੇ ਤੂੰ ਇਹ ਆਖਦਾ ਹੈਂ ਕਿ ਖ਼ਦਾ ਸਭ ਜੀਵਾਂ ਵਿਚ ਮੌਜੂਦ ਹੈ ਤਾਂ (ਉਸ ਖ਼ਦਾ ਅੱਗੇ ਕਰਬਾਨੀ ਦੇਣ ਲਈ) ਮਰਗ਼ੀ ਕਿਉਂ ਮਾਰਦਾ ਹੈਂ? (ਕੀ ਉਸ ਮਰਗ਼ੀ ਵਿਚ ਉਹ ਆਪ ਨਹੀਂ ਹੈ? ਮਰਗ਼ੀ ਵਿਚ ਬੈਠੇ ਖ਼ਦਾ ਦੀ ਅੰਸ਼ ਨੂੰ ਮਾਰ ਕੇ ਖ਼ਦਾ ਦੇ ਅੱਗੇ ਹੀ ਭੇਟਾ ਕਰਨ ਦਾ ਕੀਹ ਭਾਵ ਹੈ? ।1।"
Rough English translation is: (to Hindu and Muslim brothers) Don't say the Veda or Katab (PSS refers to "Dharam pustaka nu chutha (false) na akaho") are wrong - He is wrong who does not meditate (veechar) on these holy books - If you say God is in all beings, why do you kill chicken? ...(this is my English translation from the Punjabi by PSS)
Guru's blessings, das Hari Singh 21:56, 14 October 2007 (EDT)
Dear Hari Singh ji,
Your editing(addition of links) to my reply takes away the direction of my message making it confusing. In which form of discussion/debate is it acceptable that one writer can modify the reply of other? In a healthy academic or any other form of discussion it is never acceptable to modify the reply/words of others without permission.
However, I have no objection if you put those links in your reply. I know that Prof. Sahib Singh did not write in English. The english in my reply above is my attempt to explain taking reference from Prof. Sahib Singh's work. It may not be the best wording, but its not away from Prof. Sahib Singh's central meanings. However, I'll stil revisit it for improvement.
Your translation above says, "(to Hindu and Muslim brothers) Don't say the Veda or Katab (PSS refers to "Dharam pustaka nu chutha (false) na akaho") are wrong - He is wrong who does not meditate (veechar) on these holy books - If you say God is in all beings, why do you kill chicken? ...(this is my English translation from the Punjabi by PSS)"
This translation without proper "vyakhya" leads the reader to believe that AGGS favors Vedantic philosophy and Semitic texts, is that right?
Dear A. S. Aulakh Ji,
When you rely on your own interpretation of Gurbani, and especially when this translation is seriously flawed, I believe it is correct for a direct link to the online translations for the readers to discover for themselves what the Guru's message is.
The links are not a distraction as you appear to suggest - these types of links are used elsewhere in SikhiWiki and are an essential part of the Wiki-system. This is to ensure that "original research" is not being introduced by the back door. This site is primarily a Sikhi encyclopaedia and rules here are not the ones that apply to a forum.
This discussion is primarily about the article and nothing else. When quoting Gurbani, the reader must have the reference cited and a link presented to the original script and approved translation - those are the rules of a Wiki. Your translations have no references and are purely your own inventions to support your own view point. You wish to distance these from the "real translation" - This is not acceptable and will not be allowed.
You say that the addition of these links "takes away the direction of my message"- How can a reference take away the direction of an issue - All it does is give a link - It does not present a view point - If the reader wishes to check the link - then it is up to them - otherwise they can continue with your text.
If you look at the original article, you will see links to the original text plus the transliteration & translation. No one has complained that this is distracting. Most Shabads that I quoted on SikhiWiki have a link to the original text & translation - this is good practise and is an open system which stops Manmat practises.
I am sorry but you miss the point completely. Incorrect translations will NOT be allowed and should normally be deleted immediately from this site. But in the interest of dialogue and discussion they are allowed but only on the condition that the "real translation" is available next to the point being made. This policy will not change. The links have to remain or the actual translation placed in their place!
Your submission that your work is based on PSS is untenable. You cannot show any link between what you have written and PSS's writing. If you think this is not correct – place PSS work here and translate that word by word as I have done for the Shabad on page 1350. I bet you will not do it; as what you are saying is complexly false and baseless.
Bhai sahib, To make a point, I have quickly provided you with my translation of PSS's work on page 1350- All Maharaj says is - Don't say the Vedaa & Kataba are false - False is the one who does not do veechar of these holy books - That is the message of Gurbani. What I make of that is not important. The important thing is to understand what the Guru is telling us.
I don't understand why you need "vyakhya" here to understand this simple statement by our Guru! If you understand Punjabi – then the meaning is clear for anyone to understand. Gurbani is not granting any favour to anyone – It is making a simple statement. PSS does not add to this statement either!
Guru's blessing, das, Hari Singh 09:39, 15 October 2007 (EDT)
How would you summarized the topic
Waheguru Ji ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji ki Fateh
Respected hari Singh,
I have read the discussion four time , First One when my friend recommend this site in 2007 and I almost lost the debate ,after then I read only A.S Aulakh post once again , Now I have read complete discussion & found my self uncomfortable in accepting the meat eating in Sikhism .
However, A.S. Aulakh‘s post/translation clearly denies the Veg & Non – Vegitranism in sikh and directed to personnel Intereset of people. But as per SGGS JI (on front page of article) it seriously denies the Killing and eating meat.
ਕਬੀਰ ਜੀਅ ਜ ਮਾਰਹਿ ਜੋਰ ਕਰਿ ਕਹਤੇ ਹਹਿ ਜ ਹਲਾਲ ॥ ਦਫਤਰ ਦਈ ਜਬ ਕਾਢਿ ਹੈ ਹੋਇਗਾ ਕਉਨ ਹਵਾਲ ॥੧੯੯॥ SGGS Page 1375
ਕਬੀਰ ਭਾਂਗ ਮਾਛਲੀ ਸਰਾ ਪਾਨਿ ਜੋ ਜੋ ਪਰਾਨੀ ਖਾਂਹਿ ॥ ਤੀਰਥ ਬਰਤ ਨੇਮ ਕੀਝ ਤੇ ਸਭੈ ਰਸਾਤਲਿ ਜਾਂਹਿ ॥੨੩੩॥ SGGS Page 1377 In another Shabbad, ਮਾਸ ਮਾਸ ਕਰਿ ਮੂਰਖ ਝਗੜੇ ਗਿਆਨ ਧਿਆਨ ਨਹੀ ਜਾਣੈ ॥ ਕਉਣ ਮਾਸ ਕਉਣ ਸਾਗ ਕਹਾਵੈ ਕਿਸ ਮਹਿ ਪਾਪ ਸਮਾਣੇ ॥ SGGS Page 1289
Amazing fact in this shabbad, Guru Sahib raised a point above the common man understanding and crosses all fake rituals, believes & set Independence of spiritual life.
So , How would you summarized the topic. Gurfateh JI-- Dilpreet Singh
Reply to Bhai Dilpreet Singh ji comments
Bhai sahib Dilpreet Singh ji, Waheguru ji ka Khalsa, Waheguru ji ki Fateh
Thank you for reading the discussion so intensely; it is clear that this is an important aspect of human living for you; and that is what Sikhi is all about. We need to look deep into ourselves and interrogate the way we conduct ourselves during our physical presence here on Earth.
To summarise the message of Gurbani as I understand it: Guru sahib is telling us that doing something just as a ritual is not going to help us; so if we do not eat meat as a ritual without any underlying mental change; this is almost worthless; what is needed is the underlying mental change.
- Do not eat meat when you feel compassion for the being been killed;
- Do not eat meat when you cannot kill the "helpless" goat;
- Do not eat meat when you cannot strike the knife on any weaker or undefended, being, etc, etc
If you do not have this feeling within your heart then the required change has not yet taken place in your mind. Can you put a knife to the throat of the goat without feeling compassion? If you can, then you have not understood the deeper message of Gurbani. Go and meditate on Gurbani; look deeper within your mind and soul.
If you stop eating meat because you believe that "meat is polluted" or that "meat is not halal" or that "meat smells bad", etc, etc - then this is not going down the right path; you are brainwashed and misleading yourself. Guru ji is looking for a mental change in us; Kabir ji wants us to have "compassion" for the feelings of the soul within the goat;
Kabeer, they oppress living beings and kill them, and call it proper. When the Lord calls for their account, what will their condition be? ((199)),
Can you "see and appreciate" that the goat is suffering when you are cutting its throat; Or do you fit into the category of "They have no eyes in their hearts". Isn't using force unjust; Can you appreciate that? Do you have that depth of feeling yourself to appreciate feeling of others; if you do not then you have not understood Gurbani - you know "nothing about meditation and spiritual wisdom." You have not yet reached the level of conciousness that is needed; you may have to go back on the conveyor belt of life and death a few more times.
Guru ji tell us that every being has a soul whether its a plant or it is an animal; both souls reside in flesh; one is vegetable and the other is meat. Also, most other religions allow meat; do not despise them or criticise them; it is up to each of us to come to a personal conclusion based on our inner feelings and understanding. Do not "force" others to believe what you believe; you may discuss things with others but do not discriminate or pass judgement on them!
How you live and behave in your life is up to the individual; the more you meditate and the more you become aware of God, the more closer you will become to Gurbani - But follow it with your heart and understand it with your mind; do not follow it blindly!
I hope this helps. If you have any further comments, please feel free to post them here. Kind regards and many thanks for the opportunity to discuss Gurbani. das, Hari Singhtalk 15:12, 11 July 2009 (UTC)
Reply to bhai Hari Singh Ji
Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa , Waheguru Ji ki fateh
Thanks for beautiful post, I think you have answered very well to the endless discussion. In the post you have placed vegetables and meat at same place , Also point out the mercy/compassion for the feeling/pain of same, as we do for other humans.
As per the mental change requires , How you Justifies the "Jatka" in Sikhism, which is done in a single shot?
Gurfateh Ji -- Dilpreet Singh