Talk:Supernatural Powers

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Explanation about Sikhi and Supernatural Powers

You say in your comments that you "Removed [the] concept of Supernatural Powers of Mian Meer, and Guru Arjan Dev ji..." as "...It contradicts Gurmat".

Khalsa ji, supernatural powers are a reality and the vision that is described by Mian Mir is a possibility as can be seen from Gurbani at the link given below. Bani tells us that supernatural powers do exist and that they are a integral part of nature; Riddha and Siddha are a function of nature just like atomic power or gravity, powers of thought, etc. However to strive or crave for these powers is "anti-Gurmat"; to use these powers for personal advantage is anti-gurmat. Please follow the link to read Gurbani lines containing the word "supernatural". read Gurbani lines containing the word "supernatural"

You will recall that Guru Nanak stopped a huge bolder at Panja Sahib in an act to save himself and the sangat from certain death. This is a supernatural act done by a Guru! Not for a personal gain and in self defence but nevertheless a supernatural act in any event. I hope you will agree with my analysis of this issue and the related Gurbani; if not, please do revert back to me on my user talk page. Kind regards and many thanks again, Hari Singh 22:51, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

Does Sikhism believes in Supernatural Powers????

Dear Hari Singh ji,

Thanks for your analysis. I respect your faith and beliefs.

It is not that I don't believe in supernatural powers of GOD, He is capable of anything.

But I just wanted to clarify that our Guru ji were Human Beings with divine knowledge and They have labelled all these powers as lowly and useless on our way to realise one GOD.

Please Go through first 10 references highlighted in your provided link.

Your Reference to Supernatural Powers in SGGS


Approach I followed: To Go through the complete shabd and understand the underlying theme being conveyed.


Please correct me if I have misinterpreted any Shabad wrongly. I would be more than happy to see things from your perspective.


1. ਸਭਿ ਨਿਧਾਨ ਦਸ ਅਸਟ ਸਿਧਾਨ ਠਾਕ੝ਰ ਕਰ ਤਲ ਧਰਿਆ ॥ All the nine treasures, and the eighteen supernatural powers are held by our Lord and Master in the Palm of His Hand. Page 10, Line 13


Gurbani is saying that GOD has all the powers be it natural or supernatural, 
If we go through the whole shabad of the above [[pankti]], the theme explains capabilities
of GOD not a human being.

2. ਨਾਉ ਸਦਾਝ ਆਪਣਾ ਹੋਵੈ ਸਿਧ੝ ਸ੝ਮਾਰ੝ ॥ you may adopt a lofty name, and be known to have supernatural spiritual powers - Page 17, Line 6

If we go through the complete shabad, Guru ji is saying if one practices all the rituals, 
even adopt a lofty name and be known to possess supernatural spiritual powers...even so, 
if you are not accepted in the court of the lord, then all this adoration is false.

3.ਹਰਿ ਹਾਰ੝ ਕੰਠਿ ਜਿਨੀ ਪਹਿਰਿਆ ਗ੝ਰ ਚਰਣੀ ਚਿਤ੝ ਲਾਇ ॥ ਤਿਨਾ ਪਿਛੈ ਰਿਧਿ ਸਿਧਿ ਫਿਰੈ ਓਨਾ ਤਿਲ੝ ਨ ਤਮਾਇ ॥੪॥ Those who wear the Necklace of the Lord around their necks, and focus their consciousness on the Guru's Feet - wealth and supernatural spiritual powers follow them, but they do not care for such things at all. ||4|| Page 26, Line 18

If we go through the complete shabad, it highlights that Those who focus their conscious
on ONE GOD, wealth, treasures and supernatural powers are nothing for them, and 
they do not care for such things
at all.

Whatever pleases God's Will comes to pass (ie. only that thing happens). Nothing else can be done.
In the last line Guru Nanak Requests to GOD, "Servant Nanak lives by chanting the Naam. O Lord,
please give it (ie. NAAM ) to me, in Your Natural Way"

Please read the last line of this shabad which emphasises on "Natural Way" of GOD's realization.


4.ਅਠਾਰਹ ਸਿਧੀ ਪਿਛੈ ਲਗੀਆ ਫਿਰਨਿ ਨਿਜ ਘਰਿ ਵਸੈ ਨਿਜ ਥਾਇ ॥ The Siddhis-the eighteen supernatural spiritual powers-follow in my footsteps; I dwell in my own home, within my own self. Page 91, Line 11

In this shabad (whole shabad) Guru ji is saying that on realisation of GOD, I am in a state that
all the treasures and all so called supernatural powers posses no value for me rather 
I dwell in my own home, within my own self, I am lovingly absorbed in LORD.

5.ਨਿਧਿ ਸਿਧਿ ਰਿਧਿ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਮੇਰੈ ॥ My Lord, Har, Har, Har, is the nine treasures, the supernatural spiritual powers of the Siddhas, wealth and prosperity. Page 101, Line 5

Guru ji is saying..My GOD is everything for me...For me he is the nine treasures, 
the supernatural spiritual powers of the Siddhas, wealth and prosperity. 
Please go through the complete shabad.


6.ਸਿਧ੝ ਕਹਾਵਉ ਰਿਧਿ ਸਿਧਿ ਬ੝ਲਾਵਉ ॥ He may be called a Siddha, a man of spiritual perfection, and he may summon riches and supernatural powers; Page 225, Line 12

Theme of the complete Shabad is that even if person may be called a man of spiritual perfection 
and he may summon riches and supernatural powers, but without the LORD of the universe, 
Truth cant be found.

7. ਜਾ ਕੀ ਸੇਵਾ ਦਸ ਅਸਟ ਸਿਧਾਈ ॥ One who is served by the eighteen supernatural powers of the Siddhas - Page 390, Line 3

Guru ji is saying Worship that ONE GOD, Even the eighteen supernatural powers of the sidhas
serve him.. one who grasps GOD's feet even for an instant,  he does not lack 
anything i.e. does not wishes for anything else.


8. ਤੇਤੀਸ ਕਰੋੜੀ ਦਾਸ ਤ੝ਮ੝ਹ੝ਹਾਰੇ ਰਿਧਿ ਸਿਧਿ ਪ੝ਰਾਣ ਅਧਾਰੀ ॥ Three hundred thirty million gods are Your servants. You bestow wealth, and the supernatural powers of the Siddhas; You are the Support of the breath of life. Page 422, Line 19

Three hundred thirty million gods and all those people possessing supernatural powers 
according to Hindu Myths are your (GOD's) servants, you are the support of breath of 
all these people. i.e. they are nothing without GOD.

9. ਰਿਧਿ ਸਿਧਿ ਸਭ੝ ਮੋਹ੝ ਹੈ ਨਾਮ੝ ਨ ਵਸੈ ਮਨਿ ਆਇ ॥ Riches and the supernatural spiritual powers of the Siddhas are all emotional attachments; through them, the Naam, the Name of the Lord, does not come to dwell in the mind. Page 593, Line 18

Guru ji is clarifying  that all those Riches and Supernatural powers are nothing 
but emotional attachments, through them NAME of lord does not come to dwell in 
the mind.

Whereas Serving the Guru, the mind becomes immaculately pure, and the darkness of 
spiritual 
ignorance is dispelled

10. ਜੋਗ ਸਿਧ ਆਸਣ ਚਉਰਾਸੀਹ ਝ ਭੀ ਕਰਿ ਕਰਿ ਰਹਿਆ ॥ He practices the eighty-four postures of Yoga, and acquires the supernatural powers of the Siddhas, but he gets tired of practicing these. Page 642, Line 4

Theme of the whole shabad is that even of one practices eighty four postures of yoga 
and acquires the supernatural powers of the sidhas, and even if he gets tired of practising
all these, he has not met with lord.

Guru ji says Singing the Kirtan of the Lord's praises is the highest of all actions.

What I wanted to Convey

By removing that reference to Supernatural Powers of Mian Meer and Guru Arjun Dev ji about, visulatization of angels, my only purpose was to convey the message that If our Guru's have not given any value to Supernatural Powers and miracles, Why should we impose it on their history out of ignorance ..

No one can confirm if Mian Meer really saw angels or not...It is just human say.

We all assume Sikhism to be most logical religion, but then we ourselves contradict Gurmat when representing it to masses out of ignorance.


Our religion is suffering from "Chinese Whisper" effect. So we have to device our words in a way that can overcome this deadly effect.

Otherwise we all know what " Chinese whisper" effect is capable of.


Looking forward to hear from your side

Thanks

Rupinder Singh

Reply to the above

Bhai Sahib ji,

Many thanks for such a lot of work in preparing your very considered reply; I have transferred the whole discussion here as it is more relevant to the article here.

I agree that Sikhi is a very logical faith and that we do not follow meaningless rituals or logic. However, Bhai sahib that does not mean that we can restrict the issues to just what we understand or can see or visualise ourselves. One has to accept that there may be ideas and realities that some of us cannot understand or "see" but which may exist.

Just as an example, I could say to you that "a footballer is capable of scoring a goal by bending the ball from about 25 yards past 10 players" - You may say that you do not believe this statement. I could then show you a video of someone achieving this goal. Our perception of the world is linked to our experiences; there may be more to learn about the world then we know today. If I said in 1800 that man will be able to produce an atom bomb which could destroy a whole town - no one who have believed me. So some of the things that we may say today may not sound believable but they may be true.

Bhai sahib, as Sikhs we follow the Guru Granth Sahib; this tells us that supernatural powers do exist. I agree with you that the Guru does not give these any spiritual significance but they nevertheless do exist. This is clearly demonstrated in the meeting of Guru Nanak with the Siddhas when they tried their supernatural power on the Guru!

So as Sikhs we do not give these powers any significance but we must acknowledge that they do exist; to deny them would be anti-Gurmat. I will compare them to another concept which is very similar - ghosts.

Gurbani says that ghosts are a reality - However I have not seen a ghost and I am incapable of showing one to you. So how do we deal with this issue. Do we deny ghosts just because we cannot demonstrate their existence in a scientific way or do we believe/deny Gurbani or what?

Raab Rakha, Hari Singhtalk 22:50, 5 June 2010 (UTC)


Supernatural Powers, Ghosts, Illusion and Tricks

Dear Bhai Sahb,

Thanks for your response and understanding. I am a young learner, and have little experience compared to anyone.

My approach to learning is to Question everything. But it is my experience, that everyone does not take questions as questions, some take it as attack, some take it as opportunity to learn and some take it as waste of time, some take it as contradiction to their own beliefs.

Depending upon the reception of my questions, some tend to prove their point of view, some tend to prove what is being followed by generations cant be wrong, some tend to coin new topics to divert the whole discussion away from initial topic and end up nowhere, some close all their doors to learning and take a defensive position, BUT only a few are willing to answer the question being true to the question itself.

In your first response, the approach you followed was to search word "Supernatural" on srigranth.org, to prove that sikhism believes in these powers. Please don't be offended, but thats not the right approach to spread the word of GURU, whereas all those references are conveying a totally different message.

Secondly, your example of footballer is quite interesting. I have seen a similar example on following link at timeline 01:50:

Tricks are not necessarily reality

For some, it is topmost level of skill in football, for me it is nothing but 3'o clock. So unless we understand the logic and what is happening and why, we are on the wrong track.(for me)

Back to the topic

Gurbani has references to Supernatural powers, ghosts, miracles only because people believed in these things during our Guru's times. And our Gurus talked about these things in Gurbani to elevate human beings above these superstitions.

for example, In common language we may say , " If I pass today's exam, for me, it is being richest of all"

It does not necessarily mean that passing the exam, will wire world's money into my account.

It is just a gesture, to express one's inner feelings.

In the book, "The Sikh religion" author MAX Arthur Macauliffe talks about sikh religion to great extent, but then the people he referred to accomplish this book, they all have "tilaks" on their foreheads

The Sikh Religion by Max Arthur

Now, Who knows What was their (sikh scholars) own understanding of Sikh religion and what they conveyed to the Author.

Our Gurus condemned these rituals, of Tilaks, Janeu practiced by hindu Priests, but above Sikh scholars had their photos with proud Tilaks.


Present state of History

Today Sikh History has as many versions as their are number of websites, printing preses, forums etc. If history is one why cant their be only one version of history. And interestingly whole history does not differ on what happened, but it differs on how it happened.

There is less emphasis on Factual information but more on creating "WOW" factors by injecting baseless fantasies and imaginations.

These baseless "WOW" factors create controversies in coming generations, coz some people need logical answer to every question, and others prefer to follow the crowd and are afraid to contradict generations of beliefs.

If we search Martyrdom of Guru Arjan Dev ji on internet,

1. Some sites say, Guru ji disappeared in River and never came out.

2. Some sites say, Guru ji Recited Gurbani after taking bath in the river and then passed away

3. Some sites say, Guru ji went back to jail, after reciting bani, and people were crying to see his miserable condition on his way back.

4. and many more different versions


No one knows which one is right, It is like accepting whatever creates bigger "WOW" factor for one. ie. dividing our community based on history. what can be more miserable than that. A state of Duality.

and who is responsible ?...it is no-one other than us"


Thanks

Rupinder Singh 00:58, 6 June 2010 Rupinder.singh

There is no Supernatural Power

We interpret Gurbani lines wrongly, there's no supernatural powers present. If a Mind(Budhi) converted into intuitive and discerning(vivek) mind then that Mind works on god command and it's supernatural automatically.

God made this creation and give limits to every thing in this creation. like Human have given Buddhi ball but Elephant have given Bahubal and Human is great because he have Mind developed than any other so he can control anything.

The Supernatural Powers is about those people who believe in those and it's informative not gurmatically coreect.

Actually when PUNDITS wrote history of Nanak he wrote these things chamatkari things. Udasis believe in chamatkaar.

read conversation: A Nihung and A Udasi

UDASI: Chamatkaar hota hai, Bhagwaan Sri Chand bhi chamatkari they nanak bhi chamatkari hain, sidh yogi bhi chamatkari hotey hain

Nihung: Ok then do one thing i am sitting here you are sitting there, agar itna chamatkaar hota hai, wahin baitha biatha mera haath Kaat de.

Udasi Scared.....Nihung said if you are not able to do this then i have sword in my hand i will cut your hand. Udasi sweated. Nihung said call whatever devtaa you like to do chamatkaar call your idols to do chamatkaar and save you. Udasi fall on his feets and said ok i am sorry SWORD can do Chamatkaar their's no such chamatkar any human can do.

i hope tusi samjh gaye hovonge what i want to convey.


07:00, 6 June 2010 Hpt lucky