Talk:Langar: Difference between revisions

Purpose of Vegetarian Diet in Langar

I have reverted the changes made by User:Lecturer as no detailed supporting reason has been given for this change. We need to discuss this issue before any change can be made on this point as I believe that it is fundamental to Sikhi principles.

I do not believe that the reason veggie-food is served in Langar is purely for the principle of "equality of all attendees".

If the reason for serving veg-food in Langar was only that it served the purpose of equally welcoming vegetarians into Langar then why is it served at wedding parties, where vegetarian also have to attend. Despite non-veg food being served at wedding parties in halls, vegetarians do attend these parties and do not generally complain and eat the food that suits them. So in practical terms, this reason cannot explain the reason why Guru ji appears to have served only vegetarian food in Langar.

Further, it is not very difficult to arrange equal but slightly separate areas for veg and non-veg eaters. It is common in some Gurdwaras to have different areas for men and women. So, I do not believe that this explanation is valid.

Further, no tuk (line) from Gurbani has been quoted to support this reasoning. Infact, Gurbani advices us the opposite � To eat simple, veggie food thus:

SGGS page 467: "They burn away the bonds of the world, and eat a simple diet of grain and water."

SGGS page 723: "The world eats dead carcasses, living by neglect and greed. ((Pause)) Like a goblin, or a beast, they kill and eat the forbidden carcasses of meat."

SGGS page 1103: "You kill living beings, and call it a righteous action. Tell me, brother, what would you call an unrighteous action?"

SGGS page 1128: "He kills his self-conceit, and does not kill anyone else. ((3))"

SGGS page 1306: "Even with only dry crusts of bread, and a hard floor on which to sleep, my life passes in peace and pleasure with my Beloved, O sisters. ((2)(3)(42))"

SGGS page 1350: "You say that the One Lord is in all, so why do you kill chickens?"

SGGS page 1350: "You seize a living creature, and then bring it home and kill its body; you have killed only the clay."

SGGS page 1369: "Kabeer, I will remain in the Saadh Sangat, the Company of the Holy, even if I have only coarse bread to eat."

SGGS page 1375: "Kabeer, they oppress living beings and kill them, and call it proper."

SGGS page 1374: "Kabeer, the dinner of beans and rice is excellent, if it is flavored with salt. Who would cut his throat, to have meat with his bread? ((188))" --Hari Singh 13:53, 7 July 2006 (Central Daylight Time)

Reverting my corrections

I am new to this forum, but when I was reading about the Langaar, its was just surprising to me that the main reason for "open kitchen" was totally wrong.

A lot of people get their piousity mixed up with dogma. I am not going to battle your reversion, as I do not have the time, but here are my reasons.

1. I am not comparing Langar to functions as you are, I am not talking about having a menus of preferences. 2. If meat was served then then it would discriminate vegitarians, it could discriminate Muslims and all other faiths. 3. If meat was served and not Halal, only NON Muslims could eat it if not vegitarian. 4. It all gets too confusing. 5. The simplest and most basic form of common denominator is that Vegitarian food is served, as anyone can eat that without any restriction. 6. your suggestion of splitting the langaar into two would go again the first para of the article. "principle of equality between all people of the world regardless of religion, caste, colour, creed, age, gender or social status. In addition to the ideals of equality, the tradition of Langar expresses the ethics of sharing, community, inclusiveness and oneness of all humankind. " Not everyone could sit together.

People need to tackle debate from the larger persective and not from actions. Sikhs are able to eat meat, it is not forbidden, so your ascertion that due to the fact that it is strictly forbidden in our diet is massive misrepresentation. We are not allowed to eat Ritually killed food.

Any historical text that you chose to read and now and again references to the Khalsa eating meat. The biggest reference is when Guru Gobind Singh Ji whent to Hermit's place, Madhodas (known now as Bandha Bahadur Singh Ji), when he was not present he:

"Guru Gobind Singh went to his hermitage. Madhodas was away. The Guru ordered his disciples to kill a few goats of the Bairagi and cook meat there and then. The matter was reported to Bairagi. "

From: http://www.sikh-history.com/sikhhist/warriors/banda.html

and this

"The Guru ordered his disciples to kill a few goats of the Bairagi and cook meat there and then. The matter was reported to Madho Das, who was enraged."

From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banda_Bahadur

and please to open your eyes a bit more read this very interesting posting, a lot of your quotes are choice extractions without any cohesion. You must learn to find things out for yourself and not follow people blindly. Read in context.

http://www.sikh-history.com/cgi-bin/Ultimate/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=10;t=000802

http://www.allaboutsikhs.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1252

Also it is very common knowledge that the late Guru's used to go hunting too, so some of the quotes could be seen as contradictory.

So the reason for Langaar is to be an "open Kitchen" open to all. How can you have an open kitchen if what you serve cannot be open to all? Hence Vegitarian food. NOT that is against Sikhi, which it is not. Any person of any background can instantly receive langaar without prior planning, remember we are talking about when langaar was in it's infancy before the Khalsa, not now in 2006 London. Can you imagine Darbar sahib splitting it's langaar according to preference as you advocate, it would be chaos :) When Akbar visited, he did not have to wory about the diet of the langaar, he could be instantly served with everyone there.

You must be very careful with this Wiki, people go to it and mostly think that it is a realiable place to get facts on our religion. It should not turn into a personally owned, personal controlled forum. People hold this site in esteem and therefore there is a big responsiblity.

Shame there has been no discussion

There has been a lot of activity by the person who reverted my changes on this site, but as yet no response to my posting.

I am sorry I could not reply earlier but I was seeking views of other friends and spiritually elevated people so that I could make a proportional and balanced response to your queries. Also, unfortunately, various other matters have to be done regularly on Sikhiwiki for which I have taken responsibility and these had been pending for a little while. So please accept my apology and I hope you will forgive me for the delay in replying. --Hari Singh 10:11, 14 July 2006 (CDT)

Why no meat in Langar?

Respected User:Lecturer ji

It is very heartening to have new contributors to Sikhiwiki and I would like to encourage you and other users to contribute to this major task to establish a comprehensive pool of knowledge on Sikhi on the web which is freely available to all who have access to the net.

I am sorry that you are not able to agree with the points that I have made, which I totally believe are in keeping with Gurbani. I understand your argument that serving veggie food makes everyone (Hindus, Muslims, etc) feel 'safe' (the equality reason) to take the food without any 'fear' of eating anything that they may feel is 'polluted'. I also accept that there are many Sikh Sites on the 'Net' which do not follow or agree with this point. I believe that they are wrong. The point that I have made is that Veggie food is served in Langar because Sikhs (especially Amritdhari Sikh) are forbidden from general consumption of meat and that the SGGS forbid this as outlined in my previous post. Further the reason may also be that historically, since our Guru's time, vegetarian food has been served in Langar.

Just looking at one tuk, which is in simple Punjabi, this point to most un-biased people is very clear and final:

Kabir ji clearly states: (p1350) "ਜਉ ਸਭ ਮਹਿ ਝਕ੝ ਖ੝ਦਾਇ ਕਹਤ ਹਉ ਤਉ ਕਿਉ ਮ੝ਰਗੀ ਮਾਰੈ ॥੧॥ ja-o sabh meh ayk khudaa-ay kahat ha-o ta-o ki-o murgee maarai. ||1|| You say that the One Lord is in all, so why do you kill chickens? ||1||" This is simple Punjabi so all of us should be able to understand this simple tuk with 11 words. Kabir ji asks us: "Why do you kill Murgee?" Now what's your answer to this statement? Only by dealing with all the tuks that I have outlined previously can we move forward.

I hope you will agree with the following points:

• 1. No authority in the world can dispute the laws laid down by SGGS. The Guru is our prime authority on Sikhism and spirituality. If a matter is not covered by the Guru, we may refer to other authorities. However, this point does not arise in this case as we have not exhausted the references available from the Guru – so please do not refer me to any other source of "authority" until we have exhausted references in SGGS.

• 2. If you eat meat, then it is very possible that you are biased and you will not be rational in accepting an opposing view. There will be great difficulty in you coming to a reasoned decision in these circumstances. All that can be done is to look at what our Guru says about this matter. So it is important that the Tuks highlight by me before in this discussion are dealt with thoroughly one by one so we can then see what you make of them and why you disagree with the stand that has been put forward by these tuks. Isn't the Guru our ultimate authority on this and all other such issues? Also, we need to ask spiritually elevated people about their view on these Tuks.

• 3. You will also be aware that most spiritually elevated people like sants, bhagats, and leader like yogi ji support the view that I have advanced. Surely these people's view must have considerable bearing on this matter as they are the experts who specialise in things to do with spirituality. They are the people who spent most of their time in Naam Simran, Nishkam Sewa and Gurbani vichaar. Do you believe that their views are important?

• 4. I do not believe that if one eats meat, that the person is committing a "babber Khurat" or as the SGPC put it "tabooed practices" which are: a). dishonouring the hair; b). Eating the meat of an animal slaughtered the Muslim way; c). cohabiting with a person other than one's spouse; d). Using tobacco.
  However, as can be seen from references to the Tuks from SGGS, eating meat is not a matter that has the backing of the Guru. It is not the most important matter in a Sikhs life – but it is not supported by the Guru just like Kaam Krodh, Lobh, Moh and Ahankar are not supported by the Guru. All these are negative things from which a Sikh should refrain.

• 5. Meat is totally forbidden from Gurdwara premises and that even the Gianis and kirtaneaas are forbidden from consumption of meat at the Gurdwara building. So when they have their breakfast in their living quarters first thing in the morning, they are not allowed to consume meat, eggs, etc before they open the Gurdwara to the sangat. If a Sikh is allowed meat, then why can't they eat this on their own in their living quarters at the Gurdwara? No other person will be joining them in these quarters so the "equality" reason does not apply.

• 6. Also, you will be aware that I made my first contribution to this topic in April 2005 and this matter has remained in this state for a long time. I do not believe that we need to make any major changes in haste. It's better to have a long and thorough discussion on this point so that the correct views of the Panth and Guru are reflected in the article.

I hope I have made my views a little clearer for you to understand. --Hari Singh 10:03, 14 July 2006 (CDT)

Fanaticism

Unfortunately you are what people would label a fanatic.

There is no pleasing people of your type as you do not like to read any evidence presented to you if it does not suite you.

Ironically Your Kabir reference falls straight into the trap mentioned this posting.

"MISTRANSLATION AND MISREPRESENTATION OF THE SRI GURU GRANTH SAHIB JI" http://www.sikh-history.com/cgi-bin/Ultimate/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=10;t=000802

If you had read any of the links I put in my post, then you would see that there are many reasons why you are wrong. The links I sent are from many sites by many people from many sources and from many points in history.

The overall is that Sikhs are not forbidden to eat meat, but veggie is always the prefered option, but it is a personal choice. If you must then it should be killed instantly, not like Halal, etc. Your attempt to involve my personal diet preference, of which you don't know, would never sway an argument. Arguments are swayed on facts not digs.

But anyway, good luck in your quest. I loved the idea of this wiki but when people like you take over it, there is no point.

You got to put all debate into perspective of history, in times gone by when these things were thought out by people a lot more pious than your peers. You cannot argue points from a 2006 London perspective. There is so much in Sikhism that had been varying from the beaten track, and unfortunaltey people like you do not help.

My dear Friend, Kabir ji's tuk is simple to understand so why do I need someone else's help? Each word can be clearly understood, I cannot understand why I should refer to anyone else except my Guru and the Shabad? - So please tell me, my friend why I should refer to someone else. I perfectly understand what this tuk says.
Remember, there is no priestly class in Sikhism; so as Sikhs we should not be falling back to these sites or people for simple explanation like these. Further what makes you so sure that these sites are better qualified than any other site? Please do not rely on others, give me direct references from Gurbani.

If you like to call me fanatic, then may it be your pleasure. The dictionary definition of fanatic is "A person marked or motivated by an extreme, unreasoning enthusiasm for a cause

My reasoning is based entirely on Gurbani and I have quoted many tuks and one I have analysed in depth – If this makes the point "extreme, unreasoning enthusiasm" then I guess that Gurbani has made the Sikh so.

You say, "The overall is that Sikhs are not forbidden to eat meat" – Please give evidence from Gurbani to support this statement.

You also say, "If you must then it should be killed instantly, not like Halal, etc." – Please kindly give tuks from scriptures which allows a Sikh to slaughter animals in this manner.

You said, "Arguments are swayed on facts not digs." - Point 1: That was not a dig at you because as you said, I do not know your personal preference – It was a point based on logic –It is clear to me that if a person loves to eat meat, he or she will not be unbiased and objective when it come to a discussion about meat/veggie food eating. Point 2: Where are your facts to support your arguments – I don't see any. All you have done is referred me to various sites which don't have all the facts that I have put forward; are very selective in their scope and appear to be completely biased.

I am aware of what these links have to say and as I have said before their arguments are without any real foundation or understanding of Gurbani and its message. Where is the Daya when you kill the animal?

As you believe in what you read on the net, perhaps, you would like to look at these site which supporting my view:

• Why Meat is Forbidden in Sikhism by Jaswinder Singh

• Fort Panth Khalsa

• Search Sikhism

• Sikh Rehit Maryada Points of Contention

• Jhuttka Meat by Bhai Sahib Bhai Randhir Singh Jee - Preface Part 1

• Sri GurPartap Suraj (Suraj Parkash), written by Kavi Bhai Santokh Singh

• Cruelty to Animals- Surely Sikh is not permitted to do this!!

• The biggest Sikh Website

• see section "Eating Meat"

I am sorry to hear that you think that I have "taken over" the site and that "people like me do not help". All I am saying is that you need to support your views with recognised facts – You have not provided these facts. Please re-consider this point as I am as keen as you to follow the word of the Guru and as an "Amritdhari" Sikh, I have been told not to take meat. If this is incorrect, then I am willing to re-examine this matter and approach the panj pyare and return to my old habits, but it must be backed by proof – not just other web-sites. Can you produce any text from scriptures from the Guru's time to support your view?

I am grateful for your good wishes, I hope with Guru's kirpa, you will find the energy to see this argument through for yourself – Let the Guru guide you. I have no ill-feeling or animosity towards you – This is an argument about differing views and I must thank you for providing me with an opportunity to have this discussion. My only regret is that we failed to reach a single conclusion unlike Bhai Randhir Singh & Bhai Kartar Singh.

I would like to encourage you to please make contribution to this Wiki. Sikhism has very few controversial points and unfortunately you stepped on one that is such a point. Most of Sikhism is non-controversial – so please do help us make this a comprehensive site on Sikhism.

I accept that Sikhs of both types are found and that at some point will need to be reflected in articles on dietary habits of the Sikhs – But at the moment, Gurbani seems to support the veg-view. However, I am open of discussion and alternative view points and I will discuss this with other keen Sikhs and may be we will revise the article in due course, once a neutral point is found. Or may be we will put both the views in the article. Perhaps, you would like to think about this and we can amend the article to show both view points. What do you say to this? If you agree with this course of action then, I suggest you put the revised text here on the talk page and we can then try and agree the text. Then, once agreed, we can transfer it to the main article page.

Many thanks for your time and dedication to the cause. --Hari Singh 23:53, 15 July 2006 (CDT)

New generation of Historians

For too long Our perception of Sikhism has been controlled by the older

genration of un-compromising people. They adhere to strict "beliefs", rituals,

Babas, "chinese whispers" handed down to them from others. Non questioning, and

non embracing.

Thankfully we now have the whole world's "New Amateur Sikh Historian" generation taking

over from these types. We are here to debate, question, clean up, ask taboo

questions on what has now become a hearsay, Sant Baba following religion.

Some can only do this by debate, putting facts into context, not putting context

into facts, and the Internet should of now opened up this boundry, giving

everyone an equal part.

Some of us do not hold a whiter than white stance, that is not the case when

debating fact, it will only clarifty itself. Many people can have lots of valid

views on subjects, not like the "uncle - i'm right and every other view is

wrong", mentality which is on it's way out, luckily.

---

Debate about Sikhi is good and healthy as long as the message of SGGS is not distorted for any personal gain or for any personal agenda. In my opinion nothing can override the facts outlined by our Guru - That is the ultimate authority on Sikhi; everything else takes second place.

Even history comes after the message of our Guru - That is our prime directive! If one cannot accept the word of Gurbani then there is absolutely no point in discussing any spiritual topic connected with Sikhism. To consider any historical fact, it must be well documents and have wide support otherwise it can lead to the diluting of our principles.

No one is "whiter than white" - we all are here in this human form due to our Karmas and actions which are not perfect otherwise we would not still take birth - "The record of one's past actions cannot be erased; who else is to blame for one's birth and death?" SGGS page 1014. --Hari Singh 23:04, 18 July 2006 (CDT)

The irony

Anyone reading my postings will know that all I have done is refer to the SGGS.

And Final point is that your extraction of the SGPC support my view.

"The undermentioned four transgressions (tabooed practices) must be avoided

• 1. Dishonouring the hair;
• 2. Eating the meat of an animal slaughtered the Muslim way;
• 3. Cohabiting with a person other than one's spouse;
• 4. Using tobacco."

http://www.sgpc.net/rehat_maryada/section_six.html

Obviously to avoid eating the meat of an animal slaughtered the Muslim way, is to avoid eating meat altogether, which is perfect if you don't know the history of the meat on your plate. And also eating veg is a lot better for the person - which is a well accepted view.

But we have no way been forbidden to eat meat, and debate about it should not be an important topic.

Therefore your view is down to your personal choice, which was my very point from the beginning.

However misrepresentation is a big topic, the reason for this thread.

I accept and agree with you on the following:

• that meat/veg is not the most important topic for a Sikh. SGGS says so and a Sikh should NOT consider people who meat as "second-class" citizens.

• Veg is the preferred diet for a Sikh but if nothing else is available, the Sikh is not barred from eating meat altogether. However, it must be done with "compassion" (Daya) if it has to be done at all and one should be aware of the Karmic burden. Remember that Bhagat Sadhana was a butcher but he "attained God" and became enlightened in due course - "Naam Dayv, Kabeer, Trilochan, Sadhana and Sain crossed over. Says Ravi Daas, listen, O Saints, through the Dear Lord, all is accomplished." (SGGS page 1106)

• this is absolutely a personal choice - Maharaj does not compel anyone or asks for any force or punishment to be used against people who eat meat, etc. Spirituality is a matter of "awareness" and "consciousness" and our plight to become better in this respect. However, we are restricted in our everyday life in many ways and the ideological position cannot be attained easily – It may take many "Junes" (lives).

However, I hope you will agree with me that the 4 tabooed acts are an extreme position. For example, if "Cohabiting with a person other than one's spouse" is prohibited for a Amritdhari Sikh, it does not mean that casual "kissing", "hugging" and other "lower sexual activities" with other women is allowed. The Rehat-Maryada lists the extreme that MUST be avoided but as good Sikhs of the Guru, we have to tread on a much more "cleaner path" than just avoiding these 4 tabooed "sins". So here, we are discussing the best paths for a Sikh to follow - not the extreme "lower end" of the scale - We are discussing the "top end" rules of Sikhi.

Many thanks for your help and for your valuable time, respected views and the most humble and polite way in which you have conveyed them. --Hari Singh 09:02, 19 July 2006 (CDT)

Contradiction

So you agree that is it not stricty forbidden in Sikhi to eat meat?

You now agree with me and not with yourself?

Maybe I leave it to you to correct your own mistakes then.

I don't think there is any contradiction in what I have said. I think you are missing the point which may be I have not made very clearly. It's to do with what the Guru wants his Sikhs to do and to promote. A Sikhs has to have compassion, love, humility, contentment and be truthful; and has to promote these and other messages of the Guru. See the articles in the category Sikh Beliefs

For example, the SGGS asks Sikhs to refrain from the Five Evils and other negative actions. That does not mean that a person who cannot completely refrain from Kam, Krodh, Lobh, Moh and Ahankar is not a Sikh. Similarly, a person who cannot refrain from eating meat is not barred from being a Sikh - He is termed a Sahajdhari (Slow adopter) Sikh. To be a good Sikh you need to refrain from meat; refrain from slander and gossip; refrain from the Five Evils, etc and practice eating simple food; live truthfully, Naam Simran, (not in this order) etc. However, if you do not practice these positive acts and cannot refrain from the negative ones, you will not be barred from Sikhi. But we cannot promote the negative acts as a sign of Sikhi!!!

So although our views are close, they are not the same. I believe that you wish to concentrate your definition of a Sikh on very basic minimum values while I would like to set the standard much higher. I am sure there are others who would like to set the standard even higher than I do. For example, there are Sikhs who advocate cooking in iron ("sarbhlo") cookware. I believe that our views of Sikhism should be supported by Gurbani otherwise it should not be a condition that can be used to gauge Sikh values or to be promoted as Sikh values. These non-supported views should be termed "personal preferences" and should be stated as such – They should never be termed "Sikh values" unless they are properly supported by scriptures and/or recorded history.

I believe that the views I have stated are based on Gurbani - If you disagree, you will need to quote from our scriptures or recorded history!! Let's keep things simple. If Gurbani says it, I will adjust me views accordingly. I do not think we need to consider any other resource in resolving this issue. Gurfateh, --Hari Singh 17:58, 19 July 2006 (CDT)

My crime and your views

I believe that you are not capable of changing your views as I mentioned in " New generation of Historians" section.

My only crime was to change your section of the Langar article from this

"Since it is against the basics of Sikhi to eat meat, fish or eggs; non-vegetarian foods of this sort is neither served nor brought onto the Gurdwara premises."

to...

"Since the purpose of langaar is to be open to all meat, fish or egg foods of this sort are neither served nor brought into the Gurdwara otherwise it would discriminate the purpose of the langaar. The food should be available to all. Hence the fact that it is usually a basic vegetarian meal."

your rebuke to this was

" I do not believe that the reason veggie-food is served in Langar is purely for the principle of "equality of all attendees" "

Which will be amazing to any audience reading this but then you went on to say, in a very modern impractical context:

"If the reason for serving veg-food in Langar was only that it served the purpose of equally welcoming vegetarians into Langar then why is it served at wedding parties, where vegetarian also have to attend. Despite non-veg food being served at wedding parties in halls, vegetarians do attend these parties and do not generally complain and eat the food that suits them. So in practical terms, this reason cannot explain the reason why Guru ji appears to have served only vegetarian food in Langar. "

even more...

"Further, it is not very difficult to arrange equal but slightly separate areas for veg and non-veg eaters. It is common in some Gurdwaras to have different areas for men and women. So, I do not believe that this explanation is valid."

(BTW. I've never been to a Gurdwara where men and women's Langaar are seperate. Especially in India. That sounds quite fanatic and old fashioned taboo.)

Remember the basis of Langar. There is no disticntion between people, so everyone can sit together, and the symboic nature of a Gurdwara having four doors facing all directions is that it is open to all.

Therefore the basis of this discussion is the diet of the Langaar and my reasons are quite clear and simple.

My only crime was to remove you false reference to basic Sikhi.

However I know I have no chance in changing this article as you will probably pounce upon it as you feel you own this article written upon your own views. This is my only forum.

Fanatcism, old fashioned beliefs and hearsay is one aspect of Sikhi I hope will die away as it is a beautiful religion mis-represented by many people.

In the interest of compromise and flexibility, I have made a change to the article. I did suggest previously that both views be made part of the article: "Perhaps, you would like to think about this and we can amend the article to show both view points. What do you say to this?" - For the sanity of both our minds, I have made a change to reflect the 2 differing points of view. What do you think about this? --Hari Singh 20:12, 20 July 2006 (CDT)

You are right

Yes you are right, and the false reference to Sikhi is also right, and you will always be right.

All the contributors to this article on this other Wiki are wrong too. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Langar

"At Langar, only vegetarian food is served. This is done to ensure that all people, with whatever dietary restrictions (for example Jains, Jews, or Muslims) will feel welcome to eat as equals."

Please correct it.

Please supply us with at least one clear authority from our scriptures that supports this view and then we will change this section. I think you have to accept that Sikhi is about the word of our Guru and not necessarily about our own personal views - so please support your view with credible authorities. --Hari Singh 18:41, 22 July 2006 (CDT)

Keep it simple, we are all equal

"Fools wrangle over meat" -Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji

I'm sure it everyone has heard that quote. I'm quite dissapointed that some people have chosen to use quotes and their own understanding to further their own ego and motives. Look, some of us eat meat and some of us don't. It really does not matter to me or you, or anyone else on how others should eat. We get so deep into this debate, when there is not debate at all - just live your life your own way, and focus on more important facets of sikhi.

The vegetarian section of sikhiwiki and the langar page is pro-veggie, it should be pro nothing. The quotes provided are taken one by one, as if somone picked out the stuff they wanted to hear. If they read the full message, they would see that most of the qoutes deel with rich people and the world in general. So instead of picking and choosing, and being pro something, just give a balanced view on this subject.

on a side not, it's been well known that people will follow something that they think will make them higher. Some peopel think not-eating meat will attain more spiritual knowledge and "status" This goes directly against what sikhi tells. We should be respecting others for who they and not trying to create divisions and castes.

The main reason why we have meat free langar was because it's mainly to do with equality - since soem people naturaly don't eat meat while others do. It makes for a simple langar, it should remain out of langar provided the majority of the sangat and area the temple is in eats meat. And it does not have to be indian food or similar, bananas, fruits, soup, salad can all be served.

It's amazing to see how people can full into needless rituals and blind debates - just to follow something they can touch and see.

Keep things simple and remember equality

-LC

Quotes in perspective

posted: Lionchild sikhi

Well i will supply the articel in which it is very important to read. while it does not say that you can't be vegetarian, it esentially says that people who eat meat are just as much sikhi as those who arent. and that this dicision is up to the individual - not someone else.

Your not wrong, it's just your choice you don't eat meat, now with that said, we should be respectful of other peoples diets.

SO our sikhiwiki should have a balanced view and not be pro-veggie or pro meat. I'm not either, i eat veggies too. So how can i be pro=meat? Here's Randip's Singh ji's post:

FOOLS WHO WRANGLE OVER FLESH

FOREWARD

The authors of this paper (one a vegetarian and one meat eating Sikh) wrangled hard with their own common sense which told them, “don’t be a fool and start wrangling over an issue which our great Guru’s dismissed as not worthy of discussion”. We did however feel as amateur Sikh Historians and commentators on Sikh affairs that we should use our knowledge and experience to clarify what is such a controversial issue. This essay out to be objective as possible but we ourselves probably taking one side as we waded through the arguments and counter arguments produced by vegetarian and meat eating Sikhs. One thing that has incensed us is the use of incorrect History and mistranslation to back up arguments. It was these points that we felt needed clarification and we hope the reader will find that this essay does that.

MISTRANSLATION AND MISREPRESENTATION OF THE SRI GURU GRANTH SAHIB JI

Some of the tukhs of the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji that are often mistranslated are as follows:

1. Those mortals who consume marijuana, flesh and wine - no matter what pilgrimages, fasts and rituals they follow, they will all go to hell. (SGGS p1377)

2. You kill living beings and worship lifeless things, at your very last moment, You will suffer terrible pain. (SGGS p332)

3. Do not say that the Vedas are false, false are those who do not reflect. If in all is one god, then why does one kill the hen ? (SGGS p1350)

4. Bhagat Kabir says, that the best food is eating kichree (daal/lentils) where nectar sweet is the salt. You eat hunted meat, but which animal is willing to have their head cut ? (SGGS p1374)

5. In this dark age of Kali Yuga, people have faces like dogs; They eat rotting dead bodies for food. (SGGS p1242

6. Falsehood is my dagger and to eat by defrauding is meat. (Guru Nanak Dev Ji. Sri Raaj p24)

7. Avarice is a dog, falsehood the sweeper and cheating the eating of meat. (Guru Nanak Dev Ji. Sri Raag p15)

Let us analyse each one of these one by one.

1. Those mortals who consume marijuana, flesh and wine - no matter what pilgrimages, fasts and rituals they follow, they will all go to hell. (SGGS p1337)

In this instance let us firstly add the Gurmukhi with the English:

mukat padaarath paa-ee-ai thaak na avghat ghaat. ||231|| He obtains the treasure of liberation, and the difficult road to the Lord is not blocked. ||231||

kabeer ayk gharhee aaDhee gharee aaDhee hooN tay aaDh. Kabeer, whether is is for an hour, half an hour, or half of that,

bhagtan saytee gostay jo keenay so laabh. ||232|| whatever it is, it is worthwhile to speak with the Holy. ||232||

kabeer bhaaNg maachhulee suraa paan jo jo paraanee khaaNhi. Kabeer, those mortals who consume marijuana, fish and wine -

tirath barat naym kee-ay tay sabhai rasaatal jaaNhi. ||233|| no matter what pilgrimages, fasts and rituals they follow, they will all go to hell. ||233||

neechay lo-in kar raha-o lay saajan ghat maahi. Kabeer, I keep my eyes lowered, and enshrine my Friend within my heart.

sabh ras khayla-o pee-a sa-o kisee lakhaava-o naahi. ||234|| I enjoy all pleasures with my Beloved, but I do not let anyone else know. ||234||

aath jaam cha-usath gharee tu-a nirkhat rahai jee-o. Twenty-four hours a day, every hour, my soul continues to look to You, O Lord.

neechay lo-in ki-o kara-o sabh ghat daykh-a-u pee-o. ||235|| Why should I keep my eyes lowered? I see my Beloved in every heart. ||235||

sun sakhee pee-a meh jee-o basai jee-a meh basai ke pee-o. Listen, O my companions: my soul dwells in my Beloved, and my Beloved dwells in my soul.

jee-o pee-o boojha-o nahee ghat meh jee-o ke pee-o. ||236|| I realize that there is no difference between my soul and my Beloved; I cannot tell whether my soul or my Beloved dwells in my heart. ||236||

kabeer baaman guroo hai jagat kaa bhagtan kaa gur naahi. Kabeer, the Brahmin may be the guru of the world, but he is not the Guru of the devotees.

arajh urajh kai pach moo-aa chaara-o baydahu maahi. ||237|| He rots and dies in the perplexities of the four Vedas. ||237||

har hai khaaNd rayt meh bikhree haathee chunee na jaa-ay. The Lord is like sugar, scattered in the sand; the elephant cannot pick it up.

kahi kabeer gur bhalee bujhaa-ee keetee ho-ay kai khaa-ay. ||238|| Says Kabeer, the Guru has given me this sublime understanding: become an ant, and feed on it. ||238||

kabeer ja-o tuhi saaDh piramm kee sees kaat kar go-ay. Kabeer, if you desire to play the game of love with the Lord, then cut off your head, and make it into a ball.

khaylat khaylat haal kar jo kichh ho-ay ta ho-ay. ||239|| Lose yourself in the play of it, and then whatever will be, will be. ||239||

kabeer ja-o tuhi saaDh piramm kee paakay saytee khayl. Kabeer, if you desire to play the game of love with the Lord, play it with someone with committment.

kaachee sarsa-uN payl kai naa khal bha-ee na tayl. ||240|| Pressing the unripe mustard seeds produces neither oil nor flour. ||240||

dhooNdhat doleh anDh gat ar cheenat naahee sant. Searching, the mortal stumbles like a blind person, and does not recognize the Saint.

kahi naamaa ki-o paa-ee-ai bin bhagtahu bhagvant. ||241|| Says Naam Dayv, how can one obtain the Lord God, without His devotee? ||241||

har so heeraa chhaad kai karahi aan kee aas. Forsaking the Diamond of the Lord, the mortals put their hopes in another.

tay nar dojak jaahigay sat bhaakhai ravidaas. ||242|| Those people shall go to hell; Ravi Daas speaks the Truth. ||242||

kabeer ja-o garihu karahi ta Dharam kar naahee ta kar bairaag. Kabeer, if you live the householder's life, then practice righteousness; otherwise, you might as well retire from the world.

bairaagee banDhan karai taa ko bado abhaag. ||243|| If someone renounces the world, and then gets involved in worldly entanglements, he shall suffer terrible misfortune. ||243||

Taking out the sentence we see

kabeer bhaaNg maachhulee suraa paan jo jo paraanee khaaNhi. Kabeer, those mortals who consume marijuana, fish and wine -

tirath barat naym kee-ay tay sabhai rasaatal jaaNhi. ||233|| no matter what pilgrimages, fasts and rituals they follow, they will all go to hell. ||233||

Firstly note that maachlee is not flesh, but is indeed fish. The word in Punjabi for flesh is maas. Then secondly one must ask, why is there a forbidding in the consumption of fish specifically. The answer lies in reading the entire paragraph and a picture emerges. In the last two lines the statement is made:

kabeer ja-o garihu karahi ta Dharam kar naahee ta kar bairaag. Kabeer, if you live the householder's life, then practice righteousness; otherwise, you might as well retire from the world.

bairaagee banDhan karai taa ko bado abhaag. ||243|| If someone renounces the world, and then gets involved in worldly entanglements, he shall suffer terrible misfortune. ||243||

Now putting this in its entire context what Bhagat Kabir is actually criticising in the rich and those in power. The thrill seekers, who are addicted to their senses and those addicted to the 5 thieves. Kabir was born around the area of Benares, and was brought up in a poor Muslim weavers family. He saw the excesses of the rich around him, while the poor starved. Foods like fish and wine were associated with the rich who had an excessive disposable income. Marijuana was associated with either idol people or those who had time and money to waste. Kabir abhorred this, and this statement is a social comment about the excesses of the rich. At the end he clearly states, that those people who do their duties as householders (i.e. work hard, care for other etc) are the ones who will be liberated, and those who live by excesses will suffer. One cantherefore clearly see that this is in no way a comment about eating meat (because of mistranslation) or about avoiding certain foods (as has been misrepresented).

2. You kill living beings and worship lifeless things, at your very last moment, You will suffer terrible pain. (SGGS p332)

Again let us put this into its correct context:

ik-oNkaar satgur parsaad. One Universal Creator God. By The Grace Of The True Guru:

jeevat pitar na maanai ko-oo moo-ayN siraaDh karaahee. He does not honor his ancestors while they are alive, but he holds feasts in their honor after they have died.

pitar bhee bapuray kaho ki-o paavahi ka-oo-aa kookar khaahee. ||1|| Tell me, how can his poor ancestors receive what the crows and the dogs have eaten up? ||1||

mo ka-o kusal bataavhu ko-ee. If only someone would tell me what real happiness is!

kusal kusal kartay jag binsai kusal bhee kaisay ho-ee. ||1|| rahaa-o. Speaking of happiness and joy, the world is perishing. How can happiness be found? ||1||Pause||

maatee kay kar dayvee dayvaa tis aagai jee-o dayhee. Making gods and goddesses out of clay, people sacrifice living beings to them.

aisay pitar tumaaray kahee-ahi aapan kahi-aa na layhee. ||2|| Such are your dead ancestors, who cannot ask for what they want. ||2||

sarjee-o kaateh nirjee-o poojeh ant kaal ka-o bhaaree. You murder living beings and worship lifeless things; at your very last moment, you shall suffer in terrible pain.

raam naam kee gat nahee jaanee bhai doobay sansaaree. ||3|| You do not know the value of the Lord's Name; you shall drown in the terrifying world-ocean. ||3||

dayvee dayvaa poojeh doleh paarbarahm nahee jaanaa. You worship gods and goddesses, but you do not know the Supreme Lord God.

kahat kabeer akul nahee chayti-aa bikhi-aa si-o laptaanaa. ||4||1||45|| Says Kabeer, you have not remembered the Lord who has no ancestors; you are clinging to your corrupt ways. ||4||1||45||

Quite clearly when put into context this is nothing to do with meat eating. What is being alluded to is Hindu sacrificial rituals (eg Anustarani http://www.sanskrit.org/www/Rites%20...rs2.html#_ftn4) where animals were sacrificed on the funeral pyre, ancestors or to deities. Yet the Brahmins who performed these rituals were themselves devout vegetarians. This is a comment about the futility of animal sacrifices to stone idols and dead ancestors. It is a comment on hypocrisy.

3. Do not say that the Vedas are false, false are those who do not reflect. If in all is one god, then why does one kill the hen ? (SGGS p1350)

Again, let us put this into context:

parbhaatee. Prabhaatee:

bayd katayb kahhu mat jhoothay jhoothaa jo na bichaarai. Do not say that the Vedas, the Bible and the Koran are false. Those who do not contemplate them are false.

ja-o sabh meh ayk khudaa-ay kahat ha-o ta-o ki-o murgee maarai. ||1|| You say that the One Lord is in all, so why do you kill chickens? ||1||

mulaaN kahhu ni-aa-o khudaa-ee. O Mullah, tell me: is this God's Justice?

tayray man kaa bharam na jaa-ee. ||1|| rahaa-o. The doubts of your mind have not been dispelled. ||1||Pause||

pakar jee-o aani-aa dayh binaasee maatee ka-o bismil kee-aa. You seize a living creature, and then bring it home and kill its body; you have killed only the clay.

jot saroop anaahat laagee kaho halaal ki-aa kee-aa. ||2|| The light of the soul passes into another form. So tell me, what have you killed? ||2||

ki-aa ujoo paak kee-aa muhu Dho-i-aa ki-aa maseet sir laa-i-aa. And what good are your purifications? Why do you bother to wash your face? And why do you bother to bow your head in the mosque?

ja-o dil meh kapat nivaaj gujaarahu ki-aa haj kaabai jaa-i-aa. ||3|| Your heart is full of hypocrisy; what good are your prayers or your pilgrimage to Mecca? ||3||

tooN naapaak paak nahee soojhi-aa tis kaa maram na jaani-aa. You are impure; you do not understand the Pure Lord. You do not know His Mystery.

kahi kabeer bhisat tay chookaa dojak si-o man maani-aa. ||4||4|| Says Kabeer, you have missed out on paradise; your mind is set on hell. ||4||4||

Again put into context this is a comment on the Muslim sacrifice ritual where either a goat or a chicken is kept in the confines of the home and then ritually slaughtered as obeisance to Abraham. Kabeer is mocking the futility of this ritual and saying, that why are you doing this sacrifice just to emulate God’s asking of Abraham to kill his only son? It is a futile gesture that will not sway God. Abraham was sacrificing his son to God, however all the sacrifice in this instance has achieved is destruction of the outer shell of the chicken. The soul won’t travel to God, but merely to another form. One can only understand this if one has a basic grasp of history. In this instance the person who tried to use this tukh as an anti-meat quotation was unaware of the Koranic context and had an extremely poor knowledge of Semitic history.

4. Bhagat Kabir says, that the best food is eating kichree (daal/lentils) where nectar sweet is the salt. You eat hunted meat, but which animal is willing to have their head cut ? (SGGS p1374)

Let us add this to the correct context:

oraa gar paanee bha-i-aa jaa-ay mili-o dhal kool. ||177|| The hail-stone has melted into water, and flowed into the ocean. ||177||

kabeeraa Dhoor sakayl kai puree-aa baaNDhee dayh. Kabeer, the body is a pile of dust, collected and packed together.

divas chaar ko paykhnaa ant khayh kee khayh. ||178|| It is a show which lasts for only a few days, and then dust returns to dust. ||178||

kabeer sooraj chaaNd kai udai bha-ee sabh dayh. Kabeer, bodies are like the rising and setting of the sun and the moon.

gur gobind kay bin milay palat bha-ee sabh khayh. ||179|| Without meeting the Guru, the Lord of the Universe, they are all reduced to dust again. ||179||

jah anbha-o tah bhai nahee jah bha-o tah har naahi. Where the Fearless Lord is, there is no fear; where there is fear, the Lord is not there.

kahi-o kabeer bichaar kai sant sunhu man maahi. ||180|| Kabeer speaks after careful consideration; hear this, O Saints, in your minds. ||180||

kabeer jinahu kichhoo jaani-aa nahee tin sukh need bihaa-ay. Kabeer, those who do not know anything, pass their lives in peaceful sleep.

hamhu jo boojhaa boojhnaa pooree paree balaa-ay. ||181|| But I have understood the riddle; I am faced with all sorts of troubles. ||181||

laagee chot maramm kee rahi-o kabeeraa tha-ur. ||182|| Struck by the Mystery of God, Kabeer remains silent. ||182||

kabeer chot suhaylee sayl kee laagat lay-ay usaas. Kabeer, the stroke of a lance is easy to bear; it takes away the breath.

chot sahaarai sabad kee taas guroo mai daas. ||183|| But one who endures the stroke of the Word of the Shabad is the Guru, and I am his slave. ||183||

kabeer mulaaN munaaray ki-aa chadheh saaN-ee na bahraa ho-ay. Kabeer: O Mullah, why do you climb to the top of the minaret? The Lord is not hard of hearing.

jaa kaaran tooN baaNg deh dil hee bheetar jo-ay. ||184|| Look within your own heart for the One, for whose sake you shout your prayers. ||184||

saykh sabooree baahraa ki-aa haj kaabay jaa-ay. Why does the Shaykh bother to go on pilgrimage to Mecca, if he is not content with himself?

kabeer jaa kee dil saabat nahee taa ka-o kahaaN khudaa-ay. ||185|| Kabeer, one whose heart is not healthy and whole - how can he attain his Lord? ||185||

kabeer alah kee kar bandagee jih simrat dukh jaa-ay. Kabeer, worship the Lord Allah; meditating in remembrance on Him, troubles and pains depart.

dil meh saaN-ee pargatai bujhai balantee naaN-ay. ||186|| The Lord shall be revealed within your own heart, and the burning fire within shall be extinguished by His Name. ||186||

kabeer joree kee-ay julam hai kahtaa naa-o halaal. Kabeer, to use force is tyranny, even if you call it legal.

daftar laykhaa maaNgee-ai tab ho-igo ka-un havaal. ||187|| When your account is called for in the Court of the Lord, what will your condition be then? ||187||

kabeer khoob khaanaa kheechree jaa meh amrit lon. Kabeer, the dinner of beans and rice is excellent, if it is flavored with salt.

hayraa rotee kaarnay galaa kataavai ka-un. ||188|| Who would cut his throat, to have meat with his bread? ||188||

kabeer gur laagaa tab jaanee-ai mitai moh tan taap. Kabeer, one is known to have been touched by the Guru, only when his emotional attachment and physical illnesses are eradicated.

harakh sog daajhai nahee tab har aapeh aap. ||189|| He is not burned by pleasure or pain, and so he becomes the Lord Himself. ||189||

kabeer raam kahan meh bhayd hai taa meh ayk bichaar. Kabeer, it does make a difference, how you chant the Lord's Name, 'Raam'. This is something to consider.

so-ee raam sabhai kaheh so-ee ka-utakhaar. ||190|| Everyone uses the same word for the son of Dasrath and the Wondrous Lord. ||190||

kabeer raamai raam kaho kahibay maahi bibayk. Kabeer, use the word 'Raam', only to speak of the All-pervading Lord. You must make that distinction.

ayk anaykeh mil ga-i-aa ayk samaanaa ayk. ||191|| One 'Raam' is pervading everywhere, while the other is contained only in himself. ||191||

kabeer jaa ghar saaDh na sayvee-ah har kee sayvaa naahi. Kabeer, those houses in which neither the Holy nor the Lord are served –

tay ghar marhat saarkhay bhoot baseh tin maahi. ||192|| those houses are like cremation grounds; demons dwell within them. ||192||

kabeer goongaa hoo-aa baavraa bahraa hoo-aa kaan. Kabeer, I have become mute, insane and deaf.

paavhu tay pingul bha-i-aa maari-aa satgur baan. ||193|| I am crippled - the True Guru has pierced me with His Arrow. ||193||

kabeer satgur soormay baahi-aa baan jo ayk. Kabeer, the True Guru, the Spiritual Warrior, has shot me with His Arrow.

laagat hee bhu-ay gir pari-aa paraa karayjay chhayk. ||194|| As soon as it struck me, I fell to the ground, with a hole in my heart. ||194||

kabeer nirmal boond akaas kee par ga-ee bhoom bikaar. Kabeer, the pure drop of water falls from the sky, onto the dirty ground.

At one level this is a mistranslation and at another misrepresentation of the context within which this is written:

kabeer khoob khaanaa kheechree jaa meh amrit lon. Kabeer, the dinner of beans and rice is excellent, if it is flavored with salt.

hayraa rotee kaarnay galaa kataavai ka-un. ||188|| Who would cut his throat, to have meat with his bread? ||188||

In the above Gurmukhi, there is no mention of meat whatsoever. The person who has tried to translate this has added his/her own spin .What this is actually saying is that to the follower of the Guru or one who has been touched by God a simple dish of Kheechree (lentils and rice), flavoured with salt is enough. To have something more exotic to eat you would not cut your own throat (the western equivalent would be to cut your own nose off to spite your face). In no way is this tukh anything to do with meat eating and the person who has misrepresented and mistranslated it should be held to account for his/her actions.

5.In this dark age of Kali Yuga, people have faces like dogs; They eat rotting dead bodies for food. (SGGS p1242)

Again, let us put this into context:

salok mehlaa 1. Shalok, First Mehl:

kal ho-ee kutay muhee khaaj ho-aa murdaar. In this Dark Age of Kali Yuga, people have faces like dogs; they eat rotting carcasses for food.

koorh bol bol bha-ukanaa chookaa Dharam beechaar. They bark and speak, telling only lies; all thought of righteousness has left them.

jin jeevandi-aa pat nahee mu-i-aa mandee so-ay. Those who have no honor while alive, will have an evil reputation after they die.

likhi-aa hovai naankaa kartaa karay so ho-ay. ||1|| Whatever is predestined, happens, O Nanak; whatever the Creator does, comes to pass. ||1||

At first glance one notices that this paragraph is clearly a metaphor for people who behave like dogs. The dog is a scavenger, hunts in packs, fights within its pack, eats practically anything it can find etc etc. This entire Ang talks about people greed and those that lack honour when they are alive.

The second point to note is the mistranslation. Murdaar is not the word for meat. Murdaar is a reference to people who are dead. In other words people are acting so much like dogs that when people have died they gather round to get as much as they can. A good analogy would be inheritance, where is some instances people try and contest them or try and grab for themselves as much as they can. In India, it has not been unusual to murder siblings of inheritance disputes. In fact the word Murder in the English language has come from the word Murdaar.

6. Falsehood is my dagger and to eat by defrauding is meat. (Guru Nanak Dev Ji. Sri Raaj p24

Let us again see this in context:

sireeraag mehlaa 1 ghar 4. Siree Raag, First Mehl, Fourth House:

ayk su-aan du-ay su-aanee naal. The dogs of greed are with me.

bhalkay bha-ukahi sadaa ba-i-aal. In the early morning, they continually bark at the wind.

koorh chhuraa muthaa murdaar. Falsehood is my dagger; through deception, I eat the carcasses of the dead.

Dhaanak roop rahaa kartaar. ||1|| I live as a wild hunter, O Creator! ||1||

mai pat kee pand na karnee kee kaar. I have not followed good advice, nor have I done good deeds.

ha-o bigrhai roop rahaa bikraal. I am deformed and horribly disfigured.

tayraa ayk naam taaray sansaar. Your Name alone, Lord, saves the world.

mai ayhaa aas ayho aaDhaar. ||1|| rahaa-o. This is my hope; this is my support. ||1||Pause||

mukh nindaa aakhaa din raat. With my mouth I speak slander, day and night.

par ghar johee neech sanaat. I spy on the houses of others-I am such a wretched low-life!

kaam kroDh tan vaseh chandaal. Unfulfilled sexual desire and unresolved anger dwell in my body, like the outcasts who cremate the dead.

Dhaanak roop rahaa kartaar. ||2|| I live as a wild hunter, O Creator! ||2||

faahee surat malookee vays. I make plans to trap others, although I appear gentle.

ha-o thagvaarhaa thagee days. I am a robber-I rob the world.

kharaa si-aanaa bahutaa bhaar. I am very clever-I carry loads of sin.

Dhaanak roop rahaa kartaar. ||3|| I live as a wild hunter, O Creator! ||3||

mai keetaa na jaataa haraamkhor. I have not appreciated what You have done for me, Lord; I take from others and exploit them.

ha-o ki-aa muhu daysaa dusat chor. What face shall I show You, Lord? I am a sneak and a thief.

naanak neech kahai beechaar. Nanak describes the state of the lowly.

Dhaanak roop rahaa kartaar. ||4||29|| I live as a wild hunter, O Creator! ||4||29||

Again this is similar to the above translated Ang. The Guru is clearly making an analogy between people who are acting like dogs. He is even saying that they are barking like dogs.

koorh chhuraa muthaa murdaar. Falsehood is my dagger; through deception, I eat the carcasses of the dead.

Again Mudaar does not mean meat at all. Mudaar refers to dead people, and how people are literally fighting over one another to get what they think is theirs. They are so consumed with greed and selfishness that they care not for one another, clearly nothing to do with meat eating.

7. Avarice is a dog, falsehood the sweeper and cheating the eating of meat. (Guru Nanak Dev Ji. Sri Raag p15)

Let us put this last tukh in context with its correct translation:

sireeraag mehlaa 1. Siree Raag, First Mehl:

lab kutaa koorh choohrhaa thag khaaDhaa murdaar. Greed is a dog; falsehood is a filthy street-sweeper. Cheating is eating a rotting carcass.

par nindaa par mal mukh suDhee agan kroDh chandaal. Slandering others is putting the filth of others into your own mouth. The fire of anger is the outcaste who burns dead bodies at the crematorium.

ras kas aap salaahnaa ay karam mayray kartaar. ||1|| I am caught in these tastes and flavors, and in self-conceited praise. These are my actions, O my Creator! ||1||

baabaa bolee-ai pat ho-ay. O Baba, speak only that which will bring you honor.

ootam say dar ootam kahee-ahi neech karam bahi ro-ay. ||1|| rahaa-o. They alone are good, who are judged good at the Lord's Door. Those with bad karma can only sit and weep. ||1||Pause||

ras su-inaa ras rupaa kaaman ras parmal kee vaas. The pleasures of gold and silver, the pleasures of women, the pleasure of the fragrance of sandalwood,

ras ghorhay ras sayjaa mandar ras meethaa ras maas. the pleasure of horses, the pleasure of a soft bed in a palace, the pleasure of sweet treats and the pleasure of hearty meals –

aytay ras sareer kay kai ghat naam nivaas. ||2|| these pleasures of the human body are so numerous; how can the Naam, the Name of the Lord, find its dwelling in the heart? ||2||

jit boli-ai pat paa-ee-ai so boli-aa parvaan. Those words are acceptable, which, when spoken, bring honor.

fikaa bol viguchnaa sun moorakh man ajaan. Harsh words bring only grief. Listen, O foolish and ignorant mind!

jo tis bhaaveh say bhalay hor ke kahan vakhaan. ||3|| Those who are pleasing to Him are good. What else is there to be said? ||3||

tin mat tin pat tin Dhan palai jin hirdai rahi-aa samaa-ay. Wisdom, honor and wealth are in the laps of those whose hearts remain permeated with the Lord.

tin kaa ki-aa salaahnaa avar su-aali-o kaa-ay. What praise can be offered to them? What other adornments can be bestowed upon them?

naanak nadree baahray raacheh daan na naa-ay. ||4||4|| O Nanak, those who lack the Lord's Glance of Grace cherish neither charity nor the Lord's Name. ||4||4||

Again clearly a mistranslation and mischief making on the part of someone who wishes to convey a certain message.

lab kutaa koorh choohrhaa thag khaaDhaa murdaar. Greed is a dog; falsehood is a filthy street-sweeper. Cheating is eating a rotting carcass.

Again Murdaar is not Meat but is dead people. The entire Ang is talking about people who fall prey to the 5 thieves, Kaam, Krodh, Moh, Lobh and Hankaar.

MOTIVATIONS BEHIND MISTRANSLATION AND MISREPRESENTATION

There are several reasons behind why these mistranslations and misrepresentations have occurred:

The publishers have a lack of education and do not understand the meaning of words in Gurmukhi and the correct translation into English.

In their eagerness to promote their own brand of Sikhism (Sant, Jatha etc) they have deliberately allowed mistranslation and mistranslation.

Genuine abhorrence of killing animals can be a motivation too (eg those people that believe in Animal Rights), however Sikhism should not be used as a tool to promote such agendas.

Poor knowledge of history and the context in which the Guru’s and Bhaghats wrotes these Angs is a factor too. This can lead to a misrepresentation.

In conclusion one can only say that it is very important that Sikh institution promote a clear and concise programme where only those with a certain amount of knowledge in Sikh History and the Sikh Language, should be officially sanctioned as being translators for the Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji.

THE 84 MILLION INCARNATION ARGUMENT – ANIMAL, VEGETABLE, MINERAL.

The other argument that has been made over this issue is that there is some sort of hierarchy of incarnations within Sikhism of incarnations. Life goes through many incarnations (up to 84 million) before becoming human. In other words, life takes the form of incarnation in plant form, then animal, and then human. The idea being that animal form spiritually is closer to man. Biologically this maybe true, however, spiritually within Sikhism, this could not be further from the truth.

On page 176 of the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, the following is written:

ga-orhee gu-aarayree mehlaa 5. Gauree Gwaarayree, Fifth Mehl:

ka-ee janam bha-ay keet patangaa. In so many incarnations, you were a worm and an insect;

ka-ee janam gaj meen kurangaa. in so many incarnations, you were an elephant, a fish and a deer.

ka-ee janam pankhee sarap ho-i-o. In so many incarnations, you were a bird and a snake.

ka-ee janam haivar barikh jo-i-o. ||1|| In so many incarnations, you were yoked as an ox and a horse. ||1||

mil jagdees milan kee baree-aa. Meet the Lord of the Universe - now is the time to meet Him.

chirankaal ih dayh sanjaree-aa. ||1|| rahaa-o. After so very long, this human body was fashioned for you. ||1||Pause||

ka-ee janam sail gir kari-aa. In so many incarnations, you were rocks and mountains;

ka-ee janam garabh hir khari-aa. in so many incarnations, you were aborted in the womb;

ka-ee janam saakh kar upaa-i-aa. in so many incarnations, you developed branches and leaves;

lakh cha-oraaseeh jon bharmaa-i-aa. ||2|| you wandered through 8.4 million incarnations. ||2||

saaDhsang bha-i-o janam paraapat. Through the Saadh Sangat, the Company of the Holy, you obtained this human life.

kar sayvaa bhaj har har gurmat. Do seva - selfless service; follow the Guru's Teachings, and vibrate the Lord's Name, Har, Har.

ti-aag maan jhooth abhimaan. Abandon pride, falsehood and arrogance.

jeevat mareh dargeh parvaan. ||3|| Remain dead while yet alive, and you shall be welcomed in the Court of the Lord. ||3||

jo kichh ho-aa so tujh tay hog. Whatever has been, and whatever shall be, comes from You, Lord.

avar na doojaa karnai jog. No one else can do anything at all.

taa milee-ai jaa laihi milaa-ay. We are united with You, when You unite us with Yourself.

kaho naanak har har gun gaa-ay. ||4||3||72|| Says Nanak, sing the Glorious Praises of the Lord, Har, Har. ||4||3||72||

Reading this Ang one can clearly see that the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji does not attach any particular order to how life is incarnated. Infact it states:

ka-ee janam sail gir kari-aa. In so many incarnations, you were rocks and mountains;

ka-ee janam garabh hir khari-aa. in so many incarnations, you were aborted in the womb;

ka-ee janam saakh kar upaa-i-aa. in so many incarnations, you developed branches and leaves;

If you were to apply the logic of those that claim spiritually animal life is closer to human, then according to this a rock then becomes an aborted human foetus, then becomes a plant! It is only after this one becomes human. Surely then a plant is a closer form of life to human?

The Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji only proclaims one life form as being so precious. On page 50 of the Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji it states:

sireeraag mehlaa 5 ghar 2. Siree Raag, Fifth Mehl, Second House:

go-il aa-i-aa go-ilee ki-aa tis damf pasaar. The herdsman comes to the pasture lands-what good are his ostentatious displays here?

muhlat punnee chalnaa tooN sampal ghar baar. ||1|| When your allotted time is up, you must go. Take care of your real hearth and home. ||1||

har gun gaa-o manaa satgur sayv pi-aar. O mind, sing the Glorious Praises of the Lord, and serve the True Guru with love.

ki-aa thorh-rhee baat gumaan. ||1|| rahaa-o. Why do you take pride in trivial matters? ||1||Pause||

jaisay rain paraahunay uth chalsahi parbhaat. Like an overnight guest, you shall arise and depart in the morning.

ki-aa tooN rataa girsat si-o sabh fulaa kee baagaat. ||2|| Why are you so attached to your household? It is all like flowers in the garden. ||2||

mayree mayree ki-aa karahi jin dee-aa so parabh lorh. Why do you say, "Mine, mine?" Look to God, who has given it to you.

sarpar uthee chalnaa chhad jaasee lakh karorh. ||3|| It is certain that you must arise and depart, and leave behind your hundreds of thousands and millions. ||3||

lakh cha-oraaseeh bharmati-aa dulabh janam paa-i-o-ay. Through 8.4 million incarnations you have wandered, to obtain this rare and precious human life.

naanak naam samaal tooN so din nayrhaa aa-i-o-ay. ||4||22||92|| O Nanak, remember the Naam, the Name of the Lord; the day of departure is drawing near! ||4||22||92||

So clearly, the Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji sees plants, animals, and minerals, on one level in terms of life, and then human form on another. To take the life of a plant is the same as an animal in terms of spirituality. The following Ang although a metaphor for how people who speak the truth are treated, clearly shows the mind of the Guru’s when seeing life in all its form, be it plant, mineral or animal:

Page 143 of the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji

mehlaa 1. First Mehl:

vaykh je mithaa kati-aa kat kut baDhaa paa-ay. Look, and see how the sugar-cane is cut down. After cutting away its branches, its feet are bound together into bundles,

khundhaa andar rakh kai dayn so mal sajaa-ay. and then, it is placed between the wooden rollers and crushed.

ras kas tatar paa-ee-ai tapai tai villaa-ay. What punishment is inflicted upon it! Its juice is extracted and placed in the cauldron; as it is heated, it groans and cries out.

bhee so fog samaalee-ai dichai ag jaalaa-ay. And then, the crushed cane is collected and burnt in the fire below.

naanak mithai patree-ai vaykhhu lokaa aa-ay. ||2|| Nanak: come, people, and see how the sweet sugar-cane is treated! ||2||

The folly of the argument that spiritually one is committing a bigger sin when killing an animal than a plant is a foolish one. The biological argument is a different one and is not tackled within the Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji, but that in itself shows, the choice of whether or not to eat meat is a personal one and has nothing to do with the Sikh religion.

MEAT EATERS, ONLY EAT FOR TASTE OR DO VEGETARIANS AS WELL?

The most absurd argument that has been come across is that meat eaters only eat for taste, and too satisfy their taste buds. It is a selfish desire in other words, based on Greed and Egotism. The basis of this argument falls down with the fact that Vegetarian dishes (particularly on the Indian Subcontinent), are the most varied and most tasty of all dishes. To say that a vegetarian hates every mouthful of eating an Aubergine and Potatoes Curry and a meat eater loves every mouthful of Liver is indeed the weakest of all arguments. In fact page 61 of the Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji states:

jit tan naam na bhaav-ee <admin-profanity filter activated> tan ha-umai vaad. That body which does not appreciate the Naam-that body is infested with egotism and conflict.

gur bin gi-aan na paa-ee-ai bikhi-aa doojaa saad. Without the Guru, spiritual wisdom is not obtained; other tastes are poison.

bin gun kaam na aavee maa-i-aa feekaa saad. ||6|| Without virtue, nothing is of any use. The taste of Maya is bland and insipid. ||6||

aasaa andar jammi-aa aasaa ras kas khaa-ay. Through desire, people are cast into the womb and reborn. Through desire, they taste the sweet and sour flavors.

MEAT EATING PROMOTES DEVIANT BEHAVIOUR OR DOES IT?

There is a train of thought amongst certain Sikhs that meat eating promotes cruel, aggressive or lustful behaviour. There have been numerous examples to show that this is simply not true. For example Adolf Hitler was a vegetarian, yet he was very cruel. In terms of aggressive behaviour, we have our own Sant Jarnail Singh Bhindranwala, who was a staunch vegetarian, yet very aggressive. The Kuka’s (Namdharia’s), were very violent and aggressive yet were strict vegetarians. As for lustful behaviour, one only has too look at the list of A list celebrities who are vegetarians and note their lustful behaviour.

This argument is a ridiculous one and is not mentioned anywhere within the Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji. It is true however, many vegetarians do suffer from anaemia (lack of iron), and this causes tiredness (and therefore probably more passive behaviour), however, this is again outside the scope of this essay.

HUKAMNAMA ALLEGED TO HAVE BEEN WRITTEN BY THE 6TH MASTER

Some pro-vegetarian sections of the Sikh following have produced an alleged Hukamnama that states that the Sikhs of the East were not to go near meat. Unfortunately, the sources that have produced this Hukamnama, have not been able to back it up with any evidence of its genuineness, from any Sikh scholars of note. There have been statements to the effect that Ganda Singh found this document and indeed published it (Two collections of Hukamnamas are available in print form, one edited by Dr. Ganda Singh published in 1968 by Punjabi University and the S.G.P.C), but this has not been verified by any of his contemporaries or any other Sikh scholars..

Historical evidence, in fact contradicts what Guru Hargobind ji was actually like. He was an avid hunter and warrior. Again this fact some have tried to dismiss as Guruji giving Mukhti to animals souls. This, however, contradicts the Guru’s own philosophy which clearly states that only God is capable of granting such things.

Infact Bhai Gudas in his Vars States:

"Just as one has to tie pail's neck while taking out water, Just as to get 'Mani', snake is to be killed; Just as to get Kasturi from deer's neck, deer is to be killed; Just as to get oil, oil seeds are to be crushed; To get kernel, pomegranate is to be broken; Similarly to correct senseless people, sword has to be taken up." (Bhai Gurdas, Var-34, pauri 13)

In fact such a hukamna would indeed contradict the one Guru Gobind Singh ji sent to his Sikhs in Kabul (ADVANCED STUDIES IN SIKHISM by Jasbir Singh and Harbans Singh.):

"Sarbat sangat Kabul Guru rakhe ga Tusa ute asaadee bahut khusi hai Tusi Khande da Amrit Panja to lena Kes rakhne...ih asadee mohur hair; Kachh, Kirpan da visah nahee karna SARB LOH da kara hath rakhna Dono vakat kesa dee palna karna Sarbat sangat abhakhia da kutha Khave naheen, Tamakoo na vartana Bhadni tatha kanya-maran-vale so mel na rakhe Meene, Massandei, Ramraiye ki sangat na baiso Gurbani parhni...Waheguru, Waheguru japna Guru kee rahat rakhnee Sarbat sangat oopar meri khushi hai.

Patshahi Dasvi Jeth 26, Samat 1756

(To the entire sangat at Kabul. The Guru will protect the Sangat, I am pleased with you all. You should take baptism by the sword, from the Five Beloveds. Keep your hair uncut for this is a seal of the Guru, Accept the use of shorts and a sword. Always wear IRON KARA on your wrist, Keep your hair clean and comb it twice a day. Do not eat Halal (Kosher) meat, Do not use tobacco in any form, Have no connection with those who kill their daughters Or permit the cutting of their children's hair. Do not associate with Meenas, Massands and Ram-raiyas (anti-Sikh cults) Recite the Guru's hymns Meditate on "The Name of our Wonderful Lord", Follow the Sikh code of discipline I give the entire sangat my blessing)

Signature of 10th Guru Jeth 26, 1756 Bikrami (23rd May 1699 A.D)

As we know, there is no contradiction in the Guru’s message.

It should be noted also that there are a number of Hukamnama’s that have been found that also purport Sikhs to adopt Brahmanical religious tenets.

WHAT ARE THE VIEWS OF PROMINENT SIKH SCHOLARS ON THIS ISSUE?

Taken from www.sikhs.org:

Misconceptions About Eating Meat - Comments of Sikh Scholars by Sandeep Singh Brar

Sikhs and Sikhism by I.J. Singh, Manohar, Delhi Throughout Sikh history, there have been movements or subsects of Sikhism which have espoused vegetarianism. I think there is no basis for such dogma or practice in Sikhism. Certainly Sikhs do not think that a vegetarian's achievements in spirituality are easier or higher. It is surprising to see that vegetarianism is such an important facet of Hindu practice in light of the fact that animal sacrifice was a significant and much valued Hindu Vedic ritual for ages. Guru Nanak in his writings clearly rejected both sides of the arguments - on the virtues of vegetarianism or meat eating - as banal and so much nonsense, nor did he accept the idea that a cow was somehow more sacred than a horse or a chicken. He also refused to be drawn into a contention on the differences between flesh and greens, for instance. History tells us that to impart this message, Nanak cooked meat at an important Hindu festival in Kurukshetra. Having cooked it he certainly did not waste it, but probably served it to his followers and ate himself. History is quite clear that Guru Hargobind and Guru Gobind Singh were accomplished and avid hunters. The game was cooked and put to good use, to throw it away would have been an awful waste.

Guru Granth Sahib, An Analytical Study by Surindar Singh Kohli, Singh Bros. Amritsar The ideas of devotion and service in Vaishnavism have been accepted by Adi Granth, but the insistence of Vaishnavas on vegetarian diet has been rejected.

A History of the Sikh People by Dr. Gopal Singh, World Sikh University Press, Delhi Commenting on meat being served in the langar during the time of Guru Angad: However, it is strange that now-a-days in the Community-Kitchen attached to the Sikh temples, and called the Guru's Kitchen (or, Guru-ka-langar) meat-dishes are not served at all. May be, it is on account of its being, perhaps, expensive, or not easy to keep for long. Or, perhaps the Vaishnava tradition is too strong to be shaken off.

Philosophy of Sikhism by Gyani Sher Singh (Ph.D), Shiromani Gurdwara Parbandhak Committee. Amritsar As a true Vaisnavite Kabir remained a strict vegetarian. Kabir far from defying Brahmanical tradition as to the eating of meat, would not permit so much, as the plucking of a flower (G.G.S. pg 479), whereas Nanak deemed all such scruples to be superstitions, Kabir held the doctrine of Ahinsa or the non-destruction of life, which extended even to that of flowers. The Sikh Gurus, on the contrary, allowed and even encouraged, the use of animal flesh as food. Nanak has exposed this Ahinsa superstition in Asa Ki War (G.G.S. pg 472) and Malar Ke War (G.G.S. pg. 1288).

A Popular Dictionary of Sikhism, W.Owen Cole and Piara Singh Sambhi, England The Gurus were loath to pronounce upon such matters as the eating of meat or ways of disposing of the dead because undue emphasis on them could detract from the main thrust of their message which had to do with spiritual liberation. However, Guru Nanak did reject by implication the practice of vegetarianism related to ideas of pollution when he said, 'All food is pure; for God has provided it for our sustenance' (AG 472). Many Sikhs are vegetarian and meat should never be served at langar. Those who do eat meat are unlikely to include beef in their diet, at least in India, because of their cultural proximity to Hindus.

Sikhism, A Complete Introduction by Dr. H.S. Singha and Satwant Kaur, Hemkunt Press, Delhi In general Sikhism has adopted an ambivalent attitude towards meat eating as against vegetarianism. But if meat is to be taken at all, Guru Gobind Singh enjoined on the Khalsa Panth not to take kosher meat ie. Halal meat slaughtered and prepared for eating according to the Islamic practice. In fact it is one of the kurahits for every amritdhari Sikh. One who infringes it becomes patit (apostate).

Real Sikhism by Surinder Singh Kohli, Harman Publishing, New Delhi A close study of the above-mentioned hymns of Guru Nanak Dev clarifies the Sikh standpoint regarding meat-eating. The Guru has not fallen into the controversy of eating or not eating animal food. He has ridiculed the religious priests for raising their voice in favour of vegetarianism. He called them hypocrites and totally blind to the realities of life. They are unwise and thoughtless persons, who do not go into the root of the matter. According to him, the water is the source of all life whether vegetable or animal. Guru Nanak Dev said. "None of the grain of corn is without life. In the first place, there is life in water, by which all are made green" (Var Asa M.1, p. 472). Thus there is life in vegetation and life in all types of creatures.

Introduction to Sikhism by Dr. Gobind Singh Mansukhani, Hemkunt Press, Delhi The Gurus neither advocate meat nor banned its use. They left it to the choice of the individual. There are passages against meat, in the Adi Granth. Guru Gobind Singh however prohibited for the Khalsa the use of Halal or Kutha meat prepared in the Muslim ritualistic way. Introduction to Sikhism by G.S. Sidhu, Shromini Sikh Sangat, Toronto There are no restrictions for the Sikhs regarding food, except that the Sikhs are forbidden to eat meat prepared as a ritual slaughter. The Sikhs are asked to abstain from intoxicants.

The Sikh Faith by Gurbakhsh Singh, Canadian Sikh Study and Teaching Society, Vancouver According to the Maryada booklet 'Kutha', the meat prepared by the Muslim ritual, is prohibited for a Sikh. Regarding eating other meat, it is silent. From the prohibition of the Kutha meat, it is rightly presumed that non-Kutha meat is not prohibited for the Sikhs. Beef is prohibited to the Hindus and pork to the Muslims. Jews and Christians have their own taboos. They do not eat certain kinds of meat on certain days. Sikhs have no such instructions. If one thinks he needs to eat meat, it does not matter which meat it is, beef, poultry, fish, etc., or which day it is. One should, however, be careful not to eat any meat harmful for his health. Gurbani's instructions on this topic are very clear. "Only fools argue whether to eat meat or not. Who can define what is meat and what is not meat? Who knows where the sin lies, being a vegetarian or a non-vegetarian?" (1289) The Brahmanical thought that a religious person should be a vegetarian is of recent origin. Earlier, Brahmans had been eating beef and horse meat. In conclusion, it is wrong to say that any person who eats meat (of course Kutha, because of the Muslim rituals is prohibited) loses his membership of the Khalsa and becomes an apostate. Scientific Interpretation of Gurbani, Paper by Dr. Devinder Singh Chahal The above discussion leads us to the conclusion that the Sikh Gurus made people aware of the fact that it is very difficult to distinguish between a plant and an animal, therefore, it is difficult to distinguish between a vegetarian and a non-vegetarian diets and there is no sin of eating food originating from plants or animals.

Mini Encyclopaedia of Sikhism by H.S. Singha, Hemkunt Press, Delhi. The practice of the Gurus is uncertain. Guru Nanak seems to have eaten venison or goat, depending upon different janamsakhi versions of a meal which he cooked at Kurukshetra which evoked the criticism of Brahmins. Guru Amardas ate only rice and lentils but this abstention cannot be regarded as evidence of vegetarianism, only of simple living. Guru Gobind Singh also permitted the eating of meat but he prescribed that it should be Jhatka meat and not Halal meat that is jagged in the Muslim fashion.

THE KUTTHA MEAT ARGUMENT – KUTTHA MEANS ALL MEAT OR DOES IT?

What is Kuttha meat?

Punjabi-English Dictionary, Punjabi University, Dept. of Punjabi Lexicography, Published Dec. 1994. "Kuttha: meat of animal or fowl slaughtered slowly as prescribed by Islamic law."

Punjabi English Dictionary, Singh Bros., Amritsar "Kuttha: Tortured, killed according to Mohammedan law."

In the Rehit Marayada (http://www.sgpc.net/rehat_maryada/section_six.html), Section Six, it states:

The undermentioned four transgressions (tabooed practices) must be avoided 1. Dishonouring the hair; 2. Eating the meat of an animal slaughtered the Muslim way(Kutha); 3. Cohabiting with a person other than one's spouse; 4. Using tobacco.

There have been some quarters who have been at pains to create confusion over the word Kuttha. There is no confusion over this word, and the Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji is proof of this.

In the following Ang Guru Nanak condemns Brahmins, who serve their Muslim rulers stating they are acting like pseudo-Muslims. In this Ang there is a line which clearly refers to Kuttha as meat which has had Muslim prayers read over it. Kuttha, however, can meat any meat that is killed in a ritualistic manner.

mehlaa 1. First Mehl: maanas khaanay karahi nivaaj. The man-eaters say their prayers. chhuree vagaa-in tin gal taag. Those who wield the knife wear the sacred thread around their necks. tin ghar barahman pooreh naad. In their homes, the Brahmins sound the conch. unHaa bhe aavahi o-ee saad. They too have the same taste. koorhee raas koorhaa vaapaar. False is their capital, and false is their trade. koorh bol karahi aahaar. Speaking falsehood, they take their food. saram Dharam kaa dayraa door. The home of modesty and Dharma is far from them. naanak koorh rahi-aa bharpoor. O Nanak, they are totally permeated with falsehood. mathai tikaa tayrh Dhotee kakhaa-ee. The sacred marks are on their foreheads, and the saffron loin-cloths are around their waists; hath chhuree jagat kaasaa-ee. in their hands they hold the knives - they are the butchers of the world! neel vastar pahir hoveh parvaan. Wearing blue robes, they seek the approval of the Muslim rulers. malaychh Dhaan lay poojeh puraan. Accepting bread from the Muslim rulers, they still worship the Puraanas. abhaakhi-aa kaa kuthaa bakraa khaanaa. They eat the meat of the goats, killed after the Muslim prayers are read over them, cha-ukay upar kisai na jaanaa. but they do not allow anyone else to enter their kitchen areas. day kai cha-ukaa kadhee kaar. They draw lines around them, plastering the ground with cow-dung. upar aa-ay baithay koorhi-aar. The false come and sit within them. mat bhitai vay mat bhitai. They cry out, "Do not touch our food, ih ann asaadaa fitai. this food of ours will be polluted! tan fitai fayrh karayn. But with their polluted bodies, they commit evil deeds. man joothai chulee bharayn. With filthy minds, they try to cleanse their mouths. kaho naanak sach Dhi-aa-ee-ai. Says Nanak, meditate on the True Lord. such hovai taa sach paa-ee-ai. ||2|| If you are pure, you will obtain the True Lord. ||2||

Hence, it is clear that Kutha does not mean all meat at all, it means specifically Halal Meat, but in the wider context it can mean meat that is ritually slaughtered.

AN AMRIT-DHARI DOEAS NOT EAT MEAT OR DOES HE?

This clearly a falicy, since the rules that guide and Amritdhari are from the Rehit-Marayada, which places no taboo on meat eating.

EYE WITNESS ACCOUNTS OF EUROPEAN TRAVELLERS OF SIKH DIET DURING THE 18TH AND 19TH CENTURY

There are a number of eyewitness accounts from European travellers as to t the eating habits of Sikhs. Although there is no prohibition on Sikhs for eating beef, it is clear that Sikhs as a mark of respect for their Hindu neighbours did not partake in eating beef:

John Griffiths writes in February 17th 1794

The Seiks receive Proselytes of almost every Cast, a point in which they differ most materially from the Hindoos. To initiate Mohammedans into their mysteries, they prepare a Dish of Hogs legs, which the Converts are obliged to partake of, previous to admission………………..They are not prohibited the use of Animal food of any kind, excepting Beef, which they are rigidly scrupulous in abstaining from.

William Francklin in his writing about Mr George Thomas 1805 writes

The seiks are remarkably fond of the flesh of the jungle hog, which they kill in chase: this food is allowable by their law. They likewise eat of mutton and fish; but these being unlawful the Brahmins will not partake, leaving those who chose to transgress their institutes to answer for themselves.

It is clear from the above that there is a clear distinction between Sikhs (meat eaters), and those who chose to follow Brahmanical practices (Vegetarians), however there appears to be no dispute over this issue as people are allowed to decide for themselves.

The following is an extract from an officer in the Bengal Army and is taken from the Asiatic Annual Register 1809:

Now become a Singh, he is a heterodox, and distinct from the Hindoos by whom he is considered an apostate. He is not restricted in his diet, but is allowed, by the tenets of his new religion, to devour whatever food his appetite may prompt, excepting beef.

Clearly, this gives us an idea that even independent observers of Sikhs who saw their eating habits. These Sikhs were around some 100 years after the demise of the last physical Sikh Guru and represented hardcore Sikh philosophy at that time.

WHY MEAT IS NOT SERVED IN LANGAR

Taken from www.sikhs.org

The reason why meat is not served at langar in the Gurdwaras is because langar is supposed to be a symbol of equality of mankind where all people no matter what race, religion or caste can eat together in the atmosphere of brotherhood. Hindu, Sikh, Muslim, it does not matter who they are. Different religions have different dietary restrictions. Hindus cannot eat cow, muslims cannot eat pork and will only eat halal meat. Jews will only eat kosher meat, others cannot eat fish or eggs. But in a gurdwara langar, it does not matter what their dietary taboos or religious beliefs are, the food is designed so that all can eat together and no one will be offended or not be able to partake of the meal.

WHY JHATKA MEAT?

Extract take from www.sikhs.org

What is Jhatka Meat and Why?

Jhatka meat is meat in which the animal has been killed quickly without suffering or religious ritual.

Sikhism, A Complete Introduction, Dr. H.S.Singha & Satwant Kaur, Hemkunt Press

We must give the rationale behind prescribing jhatka meat as the approved food for the Sikhs. According to the ancient Aryan Hindu tradition, only such meat as is obtained from an animal which is killed with one stroke of the weapon causing instantaneous death is fit for human consumption. However, with the coming of Islam into India and the Muslim political hegemony, it became a state policy not to permit slaughter of animals for food, in any other manner, except as laid down in the Quran - the kosher meat prepared by slowly severing the main blood artery of the throat of the animal while reciting verses from the Quran. It is done to make slaughter a sacrifice to God and to expiate the sins of the slaughter. Guru Gobind Singh took a rather serious view of this aspect of the whole matter. He, therefore, while permitting flesh to be taken as food repudiated the whole theory of this expiatory sacrifice and the right of ruling Muslims to impose iton the non-Muslims. Accordingly, he made jhatka meat obligatory for those Sikhs who may be interested in taking meat as a part of their food.

Sikhs and Sikhism, Dr. I.J.Singh, Manohar Publishers. And one semitic practice clearly rejected in the Sikh code of conduct is eating flesh of an animal cooked in ritualistic manner; this would mean kosher and halal meat. The reason again does not lie in religious tenet but in the view that killing an animal with a prayer is not going to enoble the flesh. No ritual, whoever conducts it, is going to do any good either to the animal or to the diner. Let man do what he must to assuage his hunger. If what he gets, he puts to good use and shares with the needy, then it is well used and well spent, otherwise not.

THE FINAL AUTHORITY

Guru Nanak Devji tackled this entire issue head on and rubbished the claims of so called spiritual people who thought themselves more pious and religious simply because they did not eat meat.

Page 1289 Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji

mehlaa 1. First Mehl:

maas maas kar moorakh jhagrhay gi-aan Dhi-aan nahee jaanai. The fools argue about flesh and meat, but they know nothing about meditation and spiritual wisdom.

ka-un maas ka-un saag kahaavai kis meh paap samaanay. What is called meat, and what is called green vegetables? What leads to sin?

gaiNdaa maar hom jag kee-ay dayviti-aa kee baanay. It was the habit of the gods to kill the rhinoceros, and make a feast of the burnt offering.

maas chhod bais nak pakrheh raatee maanas khaanay. Those who renounce meat, and hold their noses when sitting near it, devour men at night.

farh kar lokaaN no dikhlaavahi gi-aan Dhi-aan nahee soojhai. They practice hypocrisy, and make a show before other people, but they do not understand anything about meditation or spiritual wisdom.

naanak anDhay si-o ki-aa kahee-ai kahai na kahi-aa boojhai. O Nanak, what can be said to the blind people? They cannot answer, or even understand what is said.

anDhaa so-ay je anDh kamaavai tis ridai se lochan naahee. They alone are blind, who act blindly. They have no eyes in their hearts.

maat pitaa kee rakat nipannay machhee maas na khaaNhee. They are produced from the blood of their mothers and fathers, but they do not eat fish or meat.

This tukh specifically deals with the arguments that rage today about spirituality and meat eating. The purpose of this essay, stated in the beginning is not to look at meat eating’s pro’s and con’s in terms of the wider biological debate, but to look at I terms of Sikhism and spirituality. As Sikh, one should be concerned with getting into the triviality of such worthless debates and certainly one should not mistranslate, or misrepresent the Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji to back up a certain point of view.

AUTHORS THOUGHTS

In the process of researching this paper we have both felt that the entire issue surrounding is that of a “smokescreen”. We both strongly felt that it is an issue that has come to a head and pushed through by external forces in order to divide the Panth. There have always been vegetarian Sikhs, and there have always been Meat eating Sikhs and the two groups have happily sat together and consumed a mutually acceptable Vegetarian Langar side by side. So why in the 20th and 21st Century has this issue caused so much debate and controversy?

This maybe traced back to the Times of the British Raj and encouragement of recruitment of Sikhs into the British Army. Many new converts to Sikhism came into the fold, many of whom still practiced Hindu Vaishnav practices of strict vegetarianism.

This need to cause division amongst Sikhs may even be traced earlier. In ‘Mobad’ Dabistan-I Mazahib 1645-46, the author states:

Many person became his disciples. Nanak believed in the Oneness of God and in the way that it is asserted in Muhammadan theology. He also believed in transmigration of souls. Holding wine and pork to be unlawful, he had [himself] abandoned eating meat. He decreed avoidance of causing harm to animals. It was after his time that meat-eating spread amongst his followers. Arjan Mal, who was on of his lineal succesors, found this to be evil. He prohibited people from eating meat, saying “This is not in accordance with Nanak’s wishes”. Later, Hargobind, son of Arjan Mal, ate eat and took to hunting. Most of their [the Gurus] followers adopted his practice.

Now clearly we know the message of the Guru’s was uniform. It was not that they contradicted each other on issues such as meat eating. If some of this authors writings are to be believed as factual, then one can only conclude that some of the Guru’s were indeed vegetarian and some meat eaters, but it was not an issue that mattered to them or which they attached importance to. The author in this instance has liberally applied his own thoughts in order to show a contradiction amongst the Sikh Guru’s teaching and possibly a mean to exploit division. There was no contradiction in Sikh thought from the First Master to the Last.

Is Langaar for all or Is Sikhi promoting Veggie?

Dear Lionchild sikhi

Thanks for your contribution. Thanks for the Cut and Paste of the article, I contemplated doing that, but I thought it was too big, I added the link hoping that Hari Singh would go to it and read it.

Although this discussion is not really about eating meat, we started this by Hari Singh reverting my corrections to his article. An article/site which he is very posessive about.

The facts of this discussion is that I believe the reason for Langaar to be vegiarian, a view held by most of the world, is that is does not discriminate anyone attending the langaar. Meat eaters can also eat veggie but it is not the case the other way around. Therefore being "open kitchen", any person of any creed, religion, belief should be able to sit together as one without generating advance menus. Hari Singh's argument is that the reason a Langaar is veggie is because it's forbidden to eat meat in basic Sikhi and this is the reason.

He thinks that my reason is not the right one as he beleives langaars could be split into dietery preferences if WE could eat meat.

I'm not making this up honestly, please read from the top and check history of this discussion.

Thank you.

Lecturer