Talk:Guru Granth Sahib on meat
EATING
SGGS Page 467 Full Shabad |
Unnin Mandy payr nan rakhio......... Darpan Pg0467- |
SGGS quotations ONLY
Please note that all statements on this article SGGS on Meat MUST be supported by tuks from SGGS or other historical records or sources otherwise the added material will be instantly removed. If you continue to misuse the edit facility, you will be barred from making changes. --Hari Singh 16:12, 27 July 2006 (CDT)
"gaibaan haivaan haraam kustanee murdaar bakhoraa-ay" AND "murdar"
SGGS Page 723 Full Shabad |
ਬੰਦੇ ਚਸਮ ਦੀਦੰ ਫਨਾਇ ॥ ਦਨਂ”ੀਆ ਮਰਦਾਰ ਖਰਦਨੀ ਗਾਫਲ ਹਵਾਇ ॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ banday chasam deedaN fanaa-ay. O human being, whatever you can see with your eyes, shall perish. |
The above line says "Haraam" (impure) to which the opposite is "Halaal"(pure). "Murdar" does not mean kill, as in refrence to animals. Murdar is only used in refrences to human death. I think this lines with refrence to this and diet should be removed from this page. (posted by NeutralObserver on 5 August 2006 at 12:45)
Reply by HS to NeutralObserver
Dear NeutralObserver,
Many thanks for your valued contribution. I have added the link to the Shabad so we all know what we are talking about.
I agree with your observation that "haraam" is almost "impure" although I would have said forbidden, sinful and that this is opposite to "halal" which in one context does mean pure/legal but it can nowadays also mean "killed /slaughtered" subject to the muslim way.
I have carried out a search via Srigranth.org and 2 dictionaries for the word Murdaa and Murdaar. I list my results below. I am sorry that this does not appear to support your view that a Murdaa only refers to a human dead body. Unfortunately, it appears to support the view that a Murdaa is any dead body
Please note the translation of the word "murdaar" from
- 1 Srigranth.org
- 2 Dictionary of Guru Granth Sahib by Surinder Singh Kohli
- 3 Punjabi - English English - Punjabi Dictionary by Krishan Kumar Goswami
- from 1: SGGS Gurmukhi-Gurmukhi Dictionary: ਲੋਥ ਤਲ ਅਵਿਤਰ ਵਸਤ, ਹਰਾਮ
- from 1 & 2 (p233): SGGS Gurmukhi-English Dictionary: Per. n. Corpse, dead body, corrion
SGGS Gurmukhi-English Data provided by Harjinder Singh Gill, Santa Monica, CA, USA.
- from 1: English Translation: Dead. Exhumation.
- from 3 (p286): Murdaa - Corpse, dead body, carcass, Lifeless, Deceased
- Murdaar Lifeless, dead
- from 1: Mahan Kosh Encyclopedia ਫ਼ਾ. __ ਲੋਥ. ਸ਼ਵ. ਪਰਾਣ ਰਹਿਤ ਦੇਹ। ੨. ਸਵਸਤਕਾਰ ਅਤੇ ਸ਼ੂਰਵੀਰਤਾ ਰਹਿਤ. “ਅੰਧੀ ਰਯਤਿ ਗਿਆਨ ਵਿਹੂਣੀ ਭਾਹਿ ਭਰੇ ਮਰਦਾਰ”. (ਵਾਰ ਆਸਾ) ਭੋਹ (ਭੂਸੇ) ਨਾਲ ਭਰੀਆਂ ਲੇਖਾਂ। ੩. ਭਾਵ ਮਰਦਾਰ ਤੱਲ ਅਪਵਿਤਰ ਚੀਜ਼. ਧਰਮ ਅਨਸਾਰ ਨਾ ਖਾਣ ਯੋਗਯ. ਹਰਾਮ. “ਕੂੜ ਬੋਲਿ ਮਰਦਾਰ ਖਾਇ”. (ਮਃ ੧. ਵਾਰ ਮਾਝ) “ਦਨੀਆ ਮਰਦਾਰਖਰਦਨੀ”. (ਤਿਲੰ ਮਃ ੫) “ਠਗਿ ਖਾਧਾ ਮਰਦਾਰ”. (ਸਰੀ ਮਃ ੧).
Mahan Kosh data provided by Bhai Baljinder Singh (RaraSahib Wale); See http://www.ik13.com
Please refer to the Shabad given below and see what you think? - Only 2 lines quoted, but please click on the link to see the whole of the Shabad. Please give me your view of each lines.
SGGS Page 141 Full Shabad |
ਹਕ ਪਰਾਇਆ ਨਾਨਕਾ ਉਸ ਸੂਅਰ ਉਸ ਗਾਇ ॥ ਗਰ ਪੀਰ ਹਾਮਾ ਤਾ ਭਰੇ ਜਾ ਮਰਦਾਰ ਨ ਖਾਇ ॥ hak paraa-i-aa naankaa us soo-ar us gaa-ay. gur peer haamaa taa bharay jaa murdaar na khaa-ay.
Our Guru, our Spiritual Guide, stands by us, if we do not eat those carcasses. |
I sorry that at present your evidence does not support warranting a change. Could you please explain further why you feel that this Shabad should not be under this section. I will be much obliged if you could explain to me exactly what message this Shabad conveys to you.
I appreciate your help and I hope we will come to an amicable understanding on this matter and that our difference here however large will not distract us from pursuing the higher goal of promoting Sikh values globally. Many thanks for your time and continued interest and support of the site. --Hari Singh 11:00, 5 August 2006 (CDT)
The Spirit Of The Shabad
The spirit of the shabad does not warrant itself in these cases to narrowly mean issue surrounding meat. If you wish to see what Guru Nanak's view then you should quote his shabad. I am sure you know which one I mean. -- NeutralObserver 09:44, 6 August 2006
Reply to "Spirit of the Shabad" by HS
I am all for supporting you in awakening the spirit of all Shabads in the SGGS and please accept that I do not want to narrow the meaning of Gurbani – My prime aim is foremost to learn the real meaning of each tuk of Gurbani – First at a "syntax" level and then moral level and ultimately at the spiritual level.
Please feel free to quote any Shabad that you wish as it can only be a help to the discussion – I am not sure which Shabad you mean, please give me the page number and I am sure I will see what you mean.
I hope you will accept that I am as keen as anyone else to learn the deeper meaning of the Guru's message but feel that it can only be done with a frank, open and unflustered positions on this issue. What I mean is that the fact that I don't eat meat now and someone else may eat meat, should not have an overriding impact on what we say; how we research a subject; what we present in a discussion; and our general attitude to how we say things, etc. Let us be frank and completely open and I am sure that the Guru will then guide us to the correct path.
If we are entrenched in our positions then that is Manmat – Let us together explore what our Gurus have said and then see if we can or cannot follow His word. We all accept that to keep Hair; not drink alcohol; not smoke; etc is Gurmat. Do we all follow these teachings – Well, obviously not. So, in the end why should someone who cannot follow these clear guidance be discussing this matter about whether meat is allowed or not allowed if they have not got the guts to follow all already clearly established issues that are totally accepted by the Panth.
Lets only discuss this matter if on coming to a conclusion, the participants will without fail follow the outcome of the discussion or have the intention of following the result of the discussion. If this is not so, then what is the point of the discussion? We have to have a balance between knowledge for the sake of knowledge and the principles to Gurmat. It is our duty to follow the word to the Guru once we know clearly what it is! --Hari Singh 16:16, 6 August 2006 (CDT)
Is This the Shabad Neutral Observer?
Page 1289 Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji
SGGS Page 1289 Full Shabad |
ਮਃ ੧ ॥ मः १ ॥ mehlaa 1. First Mehl: ਮਾਸ ਮਾਸ ਕਰਿ ਮੂਰਖ ਝਗੜੇ ਗਿਆਨ ਧਿਆਨ ਨਹੀ ਜਾਣੈ ॥ ਕਉਣ ਮਾਸ ਕਉਣ ਸਾਗ ਕਹਾਵੈ ਕਿਸ ਮਹਿ ਪਾਪ ਸਮਾਣੇ ॥ maas maas kar moorakh jhagrhay gi-aan Dhi-aan nahee jaanai. ka-un maas ka-un saag kahaavai kis meh paap samaanay.
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When Going To The Butchers
When going to the butchers, people do not order Corpse, dead body, corrion or Corpse, dead body, carcass, Lifeless, Deceased :
from 1: SGGS Gurmukhi-Gurmukhi Dictionary: ਲੋਥ ਤਲ ਅਵਿਤਰ ਵਸਤ, ਹਰਾਮ from 1 & 2 (p233): SGGS Gurmukhi-English Dictionary: Per. n. Corpse, dead body, corrion SGGS Gurmukhi-English Data provided by Harjinder Singh Gill, Santa Monica, CA, USA.
from 1: English Translation: Dead. Exhumation. from 3 (p286): Murdaa - Corpse, dead body, carcass, Lifeless, Deceased Murdaar Lifeless, dead
They may say "Maas" or "Flesh".
Murdaar is a word used in connection with human bodies. If a pile of dead goats was lying on the ground, people would not say "Mudaar" in refrence to them. If however dead bodies were lying there of human, people would refer to them as Murdaar. I suppose Murdaar is more of a respectful term and therfore used in conjuction with humans.
I don't know how else to explain it, but Murdaar in this context sounds very funny to me when I say it in Punjabi.
When Going To Vegetable Stand - Reply to Ridiculous
Hi Ridiculous
Point Number 1 Using a word in an Usual Situations
I don't think that your post really addresses the issue of the definition of the word because, for example, I would not go to a Veg-stand and ask for 2 kgs of Dead carrot" or "1 dozen dead apples", etc", would I? So your analogy goes not actually take us any further with the definition. So I agree that it sounds funny – But that is not how you check to see if the word's definition is correct. If you saw a dead cow in the lake, would you ask – Keya yaa Gaoo ka murdaa hai?
Point Number 2 More Dictionaries
The definition of the words is taken from renowned sources and must be deemed reliable. So the word Murdaa means Corpse, dead body, carcass, Lifeless, Deceased and the word Murdaar means Lifeless, dead
Further,
- Translation at site: Urdu Dictionary gives the result "Dead"
- Dictionary at: this site gives the entry: P murdĝr [mur(dan), q.v.+dĝr = tĝr = Pehl. tar = Zend tar = S. तारढ़], s.m. A dead body, a corpse; a carcass;--carrion; a piece of carrion;--adj. Dead; impure, unclean, polluted; dirty; squalid; ugly; profane; obscene;--intj. You carrion! wretch! vile creature!:--murdĝr- ḵẖẉĝr, s.m. An eater of carrion; a carrion-crow; a vul- ture:--murdĝr-sang, vulg. murdĝ-sang, s.m. Dross of lead; protoxide of lead, litharge.
- Dictionary at: this site gives the entry: murdah: P adj. dead/weak/decrepit
- Dictionary at: this site gives the entry: Murdah - Dead, Decrepit, Lifeless, Weak, Wimp
Point Number 3 the Word "Murdaar" in Gurbani
In the Shabad below, the word "Murdaar" is used twice:
SGGS Page 723 Full Shabad |
ਬੰਦੇ ਚਸਮ ਦੀਦੰ ਫਨਾਇ ॥ ਦਨਂ”ੀਆ ਮਰਦਾਰ ਖਰਦਨੀ ਗਾਫਲ ਹਵਾਇ ॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ banday chasam deedaN fanaa-ay. O human being, whatever you can see with your eyes, shall perish. |
I think looking at the third line, Bani say: "Like a …beast – they kill & eat …" Surely, in most cases, beasts kill animal & eat them. In very few cases, would it be a human that would be killed by a beast. I hope you agree with this statement.
Conclusion
I think we can say with confidence that the word "Mudaa" mean Corpse, dead body, carcass, Lifeless, Deceased
Let us Sikhs glorify nothing in any way ever, but LORD
TRUTH. Amost the entire Non- Sikh population, at least in India, as
it is doing enough to profess that No 1 sin in this universe
is 'eating meat' & only route to realise GOD is vegetarianism. Let
us Spread the Word of nothing but NAAM(Live Truthfull life & draw sustinance fron nothing but TRUE IDEAs ie
Satgur/Shabad/Guru/SGGS ,DAAN(Share TRUTH & TRUE IDEAs) & ISHNAAN
Teach no one but our own self.