Talk:Sarika Singh
I find that this whole issue is in many ways blown out of all proportion. That each of us sikhs, should have the freedom to practice our religous beliefs, as should others goes without saying. That each of us should be able to wear apparel which denotes our faith is a more complex argument. Almost all religions have religous apparel which denotes who they are. I can accept that a beliver who has taken Amrit, will hold this are absolutely important, but those of us who have not, which included Sarika make all sorts of compromises in our lives which do not denote our faith.
Sarika Singh, well the name should speak for itself. The word Singh denotes the male of the faith. She should be called Sarika Kaur. It is anoying and a dimunition of the faith when females refer to themselves as "Singh". If that is an exporession of her faith, then she is sadly wrong. Perhaps she should reflect on this before taking the high ground. Perhaps those in support should also reflect on this also.
Is is going to be the next case that a BNP supprter who alledgedly converts to Sikhism (remember that he does not have to take Amrit to do so) will be allowed into a school with a Kirpan?
I am all for the maintenance of faith, I am sikh myself, but it is about time that we stopped indoctrinating our children and useing them as the means for our own battlkes. This girls education has been materially affected. her ability to see the contradiction of her faith and her name has been impaired. What chance do es she have in life, when those around her do not have the good sense to counsel her properly.
If she is so committed, then let her take Amrit and change her name. let us see her committment.
For the sake of our faith, which is robust and beutiful, let us not taint it with squalbles, butas the Granth sahib says, consider the whole sangat.
Where do you draw the line?
In a similar case concerning the turban, what would be your stand? Do you think that a Sikh male should be prohibited from attending school without his turban. Who decides when it is right for one to start wearing the 5Ks.
If a non-Sikh decides to become a Sikh, then who decides which of the 5Ks he or she should be allowed to wear and in which order - Or do you think that he or she should not wear any of the 5Ks until they take amrit?
Surely these are thinks that the individual should be allowed to choose themselves. Sarika should have the choice to decide which of the 5Ks she wants to wear or not wear as she becomes more closer to her faith. The State does not have a right to infringe on this right.
Singh is part of her chosen surname which is Watkins-Singh - presumably a connection to her mother who is Sikh. She has not taken amrit and does not use the name Kaur. This is perfectly acceptable for someone who is not a baptised Sikh. Bhul-chuk-maff, das Hari Singhtalk 23:24, 19 June 2008 (UTC)
Hari Singh's reply
As a Sikh, I only consider myself as an expert at Sikhi and cannot say much with an authority about other religions. But, I can say with confidence that if Jesus Christ had insisted on Christians wearing the cross, most Christians would be wearing one. However, it appears that this was not a Hukam or order made by Jesus. So I don't believe we are discussing the same thing. For Sikhs, there is a Hukam; a requirement to wear the 5Ks while I don't believe the same applies to the other things that you have listed for the other religions.
The other point that I make is that most Sikhs aspire to take Amrit/pahul one day and so they slowly begin to acquire and practise the disciplines of the Khalsa. Most male wear a turban although they may not have taken amrit. For example, I have always worn a turban; kept my kesh; worn a kanga and kara since I was 13 year old. But I only took amrit when about 19. At that stage, I did not have a lot of adjustments to make as I already wore most of the 5Ks and read a few of the banis. By the way, I do use my kanga to comb my hair.
The 5Ks have to be worn correctly - It would be ridiculous to carry all your 5Ks in a bag around your neck and proclaim yourself as Guru Gobind Singh's Khalsa! There is a proper place for the turban - over the kesh; the kachhera; the kirpan; the kara and the Kanga. Just because some Sikhs cannot be bold enough to wear a 'full' kirpan does not mean that the way forward is to compromise the kakkars and their symbolism. Since 1699, the Sikhs have faithfully followed the Guru's command and have brought some order and merit to this world. I don't think the Sikhs will give up this proud and unique heritage now! I believe that we have a lot to offer the world and our identity is something that needs to be preserved.
The other thing is that the world is full of diversity. Look at the plant kingdom and animals - we have many thousands of types of horses, cattle, etc. God does not believe in restriction of nature. We should welcome and accept this diversity. To restrict the customs of others is to be self-centred. Look at the example set by Guru Tegh Bahadur. Guru ji chose to give his life for the Kashmiri pandits! This is how important it is to allow other to practise their ways without hindrance.
Uniform brings certain benefits to society - but it is not so important as to be a major consideration. Within every uniform requirement there is the need for flexibility to cater for all religions. This is not a difficult task and most schools and business cope very well with this necessity. Uniform does not stop fights over religions - only proper understanding will stop that. Uniforms do not stop the evil of discrimination and ego-centric behaviour - that only comes with knowledge and caring.
Guru Nanak refused to wear the janun as it was a meaningless exercise - a ritual without any merit or credibility. It was a ritual to establish the position and status of the brahmins! The 5Ks are a symbol of our Guru and the spirit of Khalsa. When a person wears these symbols he or she connects to the Guru and undertakes to walk on their path.
Think why the police, army, security guards have a uniform - for various practical reason and for recognisability. Doesn't the spiritual and moral dimension also need a uniform to show the world the path curved by our Gurus?
Obviously, a kara on its own does not make one a Sikh; however, a person without a kara cannot be a Sikh! A complete Sikh must wear a Kara! das, Hari Singhtalk 18:46, 20 June 2008 (UTC)
Restraint in all matters
I think you miss the point here; the question is not whether she chooses to wear the Kara or whether a male should be allowed to wear a turban. The question is where does it stop. As a society, we must exercise restraint in all matters, as a culture we must show our children and through them others who they are and as a faith we must be true.
In all the teachings of our guru’s, restraint and tolerance is preferred to hot headedness. Seeing the big picture is our role as parents, not to politicise them before they have the maturity to deal with such matters.
Our rights have been borne out of struggle, but they are not unassailable. The rights we win apply to everybody, not just to us Sikhs, they are not free, but are the product of the good things we do. I note you mention the Turban, in that respect, you will appreciate that it was Winston Churchill who came to the assistance of the Sikhs to wear the Turban for their brave and gallant sacrifice in the First World War. History and our faith reward us for the good we do, the restraint we exercise and the counsel we give to our children. Remember, it is they that will take our faith forward. I agree that in some matters a stand need to be taken, but in others compromise is a better goal. Which side we fall should be a decision of us all, hence my contribution.
The issue of the Turban is raised but I note that the question I put regarding the Kirpan is not dealt with. Is it right that a child or an adult in the workplace has an unassailable right to wear a Kirpan? What then of the BNP supporter. The Kirpan is allowed for adults under clothing, which is a compromise that adults have made, it does not offend against their expression of faith.
You see, when the argument is advanced on the basis that to wear one item is unassailable then all items of faith are to be treated the same. What then of the consequences.
What would be your view if a child was injured or god forbid killed by a Kirpan, either by the wearer or by somebody else who had wrested from him. What if the child was yours, would that be the unassailable view that you have.
There is no absolute answer to the rhetorical question posed, the answer is in reality that we must think carefully where we are going and the path we travel.
The school or the workplace are not the places for these matters, it is the home. I grew up in the UK, having been born here. I did not wear the 5 K’s as a child (although I wear some of them now). I am no less a Sikh for it. I learnt from my father the meaning of hard work, honesty, compromise and honour (that is to be proud of who I am and my heritage). I learnt from my mother the meaning of struggle and love and I learnt from those around me the meaning of my faith and belonging. All this in a time when racism was rampant in the inner cities of the West Midlands.
I did not need to wear the 5 K’s to do this; I had the good counsel of my family and the direction of my Lord (Waheguru).
My faith and heritage was not so fragile that I needed to have a Kara to remind me to do good things as my Lord commands of me; my upbringing reminded me of this.
There are many inconsistencies with this girl’s stance, not least the adoption of the name Singh. Lest we forget, it was the command of Guru Gobind Singh Ji that joined the Khalsa with the common names. It does not matter that we use village names, but what we use should be used correctly. The adoption of the name Singh by this girl’s mother is wrong and contrary to the Guru’s command. What then of that as the outward expression of her faith.
Balance, restraint and devotion to all others and above all matters to our Lord is what we should instil in our children. With that to carry them forward, they will not go wrong and they will stay within the faith. Contradiction will cause them to stray as they fail to be able to reconcile such contradictions.
Let us not blindly walk in to a fanatics paradise
Reply by Hari Singh
I am sorry if I did not understand you you correctly. The points that you make are good but you must make them with the knowledge that the wearing of the kakkars is by the command of Guru Gobind Singh. I am sure the Guru must have thought of all the points that you make and then decided to move forward with them. The Guru had 4 children of his own and had the intelligence and wisdom which surpassed most of his peers.
A lot of the problems in the world are due to a restrain in the practising of good values and good deeds. We only need to retrain from bad not from good. To wear the symbols of the Gurus is a good thing - it connects you to the virtues which have been taught by our Gurus; it helps build a link with the values of our Guru. Wearing the 5Ks does no harm to others. It is a sign of a free society; an acceptance of diversity; a recognition of personal rights of all; a sign of personal responsibility; a visible and open sign of restrain. One should only wear the 5Ks when one accepts the message of the Gurus.
I wear the kirpan - not to attack but to defend; The fact that I don the kirpan but will not use it to attack is a sign of true restrain; It will only be used as a last resort when all other means have been exhausted and when a weaker person or I am actually being attacked. Otherwise the kirpan will never leave my side. The same values have to be taught to our children. If a child cannot control his or her anger, they should not be allowed to wear the kirpan.
Weapons are all around us; knives and forks bigger than my kirpan are on every dining table; sharp scissors can be found in most classrooms. I have never heard of a child killing or harming another child using these weapons. We need to learn a lesson from the chota sahibzada - at approximate age of 6 and 9 they could defy the mighty Mughal empire and stick to their guns despite the serious threats! This is the level of conciousness that we need to attain in ourselves and in our children.
We cannot compromise with our core values - If we start bargaining with our identity, we will disappear as a religion. Our values are a beacon to others; we believe in equality; in inter-faith; in compassion; in sharing with all; in freedom for all; we value all creation; we defend the rights of others; etc, etc. Where else do you find all this?
I am afraid that Sikhi is not only about hard work, honesty, compromise and honour, knowing the meaning of struggle and love, etc. There is more - much much more. How will you know all these other things if you never come close to your Guru; listen to what the Guru says and wants you to do. Where is your need to defend others; the need to share with others; the need to unite in the pains of others; the need to come closer to God. You don't have those hungers; How will you understand the sacrifice of our Gurus.
You do not need to wear the 5Ks to be a good person; but without the 5Ks you are not a true Sikh nor a true disciple of the Guru. You cannot be a true and honest followers of Guru Gobind Singh if you fail to wear his kakkars. Many consider Guru Gobind Singh as the father of the panth - If we as his sons and daughters do not listen to him, do we really have a right to call ourselves Sikhs - "disciples of the Gurus" - I think not.
Being a good human being and being a good Sikh are not the same thing - Unless you have real love for the Guru, you may be a good person but you will never be a good Sikh.
I cannot accept any of the negative things that you say about Sarika and her family - We all have a God-given right to live our lives as we wish provided we don't harm others. So Sarika has a right to follow her chosen religion as best as she wishes. She also has the right to call herself whatever she wishes. Why should we interfere in that - What right do we have? - Further, as Sikhs, we have no right to criticise her ways. Guru sahib tells us in Japji that the Earth is a dharamsala - a sacred place to improve ourselves by remembering God - It is definitely not a place for us to make negative and destructive comment about others. So let us stick to the the Guru way and try and better ourselves and not make negative comments on others.
We have always had conflict in our history. During Mughal times various laws were passed to restrict the rights of non-muslims. If we did not fight against these infringements, we would all be mughals now. Thanks our Gurus that did not happen and we can argue about the importance or not of the 5Ks! das, Hari Singhtalk 20:08, 20 June 2008 (UTC)
Reply to Hari Singh by BS
I appreciate your comments but can not agree with them all. In time you will understand that the basis of faith is not its outward display, these are confirmatory of faith, but its inward devotion. Faith is personal to us all, that is what the Guru's teach us. In actual fact being a good human (or person) and being a good Sikh are exactly the same thing, they are what set us apart, they are exactly what the guru's teach us.
You say that there are weapons all around us and you are right. Read the newspapers and look out at the world and you will see daily news of children being hurt and killed using all sorts of weapons that have hitherto that moment been an innocent item if everyday life. Look to the rise in knife attacks in the UK and then tell me that you have not heard of anyone being killed.
You say that without the 5K's I am not a true Sikh. Tell me what gives you the right to tell me that I am not a true Sikh. In my understanding of the Bhani, only my Wareguru has the right to judge me as a Sikh or not. Since when did you take it upon yourself to assume that role. By doing so you cast yourself above your lord and that I am afraid makes you the very untruthful Sikh that you accuse those of us who do not wear all the 5K's of being.
It is exactly this sort of doctrine that has no basis because you can not make that judgement that’s fails to educate our children in their heritage and sets them on the road of ruin.
The debate is about the true nature of understanding, not an abject attempt to quote parts of history and not other parts. The whole of all of our guru's history is about one struggle or another, it is about the need to fight, but it is also about the need to understand.
The point that I and many others have made is the contradiction of this girls name. It was also the Guru's Hukam that we shall refer to ourselves as Singh for the male and Kaur for the female. Why is that one Hukum is less valuable than another.
I am afraid that intellectually the fight that she thinks she is spearheading is a sterile one as is the support in my view. Whilst there is a lot on this website in its responses about who is a good Sikh and who is not, nobody has been able to answer the questions which sit at the centre of this all, those are what of the other faiths and what of the consequences. Without this sort of analysis, there is no understanding of the nature of the right sort and its impact, the nature of the person fighting it and the perception. That makes fools of us all, whether we support her or not. To you, she is not a true Sikh, then what of her battle. What is essence you are saying is that you as a true Sikh were not brave enough to have the battle, but you are content to follow this non Sikh and then to call her a non Sikh. That is cowardice and that is not Sikhi
Referring to your opening comments the Guru's (all of them) did ponder these matters, we do not need to assume that. They set out their commands in the Granth Sahib and said at the last, that to the extent that they are not answered by the Granth Sahib, then the Sangat must decide weighing ALL matters into account. In saying that they did not say that those of us who do not wear all 5 K's are to be excluded, or that the Sangat is but a few of the political elite, it is us all.
On with debate and let us cast out of our minds the judgements that we have about who is a good Sikh or not, those are not for us to say.
Reply to BS from Hari Singh
Bhai sahib ji,
Many thanks for a comprehensive and well thought reply. I am most grateful for your valuable time and dedication.
I did not intended to make any direct judgement about you or anyone else. The comment I make are of a general nature and not intended for anyone personally. I apologise for directing any judgement at you. This was not the intention although having reviewed the post, I am sorry to say it does appear as if was directing the comment to you.
Bhai sahib, who is honoured in the Lord's court is something that I have no control over or knowledge about; only the good Lord or His chosen ones know. What I say is what has been the guidance from Guru Granth Sahib, the oral tradition of Pahul; the bani & hukam of Guru Gobind Singh and renowned Sikhs like Bhai Gurdas & Bhai Nand lal.
Bhai sahib, my understanding is that the best Sikh is a Khalsa Sikh and the Guru tells us the qualities of a Khalsa Sikh in Khalsa Mahima - My understanding also is the to become a Khalsa, one must go through the pahul ceremony - see article on Khalsa. So whether the 5Ks mean anything is not for us to decide once we become Khalsa. When we take pahul, we are bound by the promise that we make and we need to wear the 5Ks. I hope you will agree with this previous statement.
Now, we don't suddenly get up one day and decide to take amrit. For some it is a gentle path. For me, bhai sahib, it was such a path. I wore certain kakkars when young and made certain life changes like no meat, etc; then I started reciting one bani; then a few more kakkars and few more life changes, etc. Then in about 1973, I took amrit.
Now, before 1973, I could not be called a Khalsa, but I still wore the Kara and turban. Should I have been free to do so? That is the question we need to address. Also, I called myself a Singh - Should that be allowed considering that I have not yet taken amrit.
Now talking about names - my wife since marriage uses Hari as her second name as a sign of respect for me - Is this anti-gurmat? or a crime? Or do we call it freedom of choice?
Bhai sahib, I feel that these are the things that we need to address rather than talk about this particular girl's circumstance. She has a right to determine which religion she follows and at what pace she wants to reach her final destination in that faith. Regards, Hari Singhtalk 16:13, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
Reply
Thank you for your response in this matter. It was not that I solely took it personally, if that were the sole cause of my ire, then it was not worthy of my time but more importantly your time.
I agree with what you say about the freedom of choice, be that a name or wearing a Kara or a Kirpan. But with freedom of choice also comes the responsibility. More so for us adults to ensure that children, not just our own children, but those of the sangat at large understand that if we are to have freedom of choice, then we must also have responsibility.
This whole issue has become overshadowed by the issue of this girls name, then the issue of whether she has the freedom of religion, then choice and then whether I or those of us Sikh's (and we are as Sikh as you) who do not wear the 5 K's or have not as yet taken Amrit are "true Sikh's". All of these are, as I have said sterile issues, for nobody can judge but our Lord.
Going back to the original post, the question that I posed was that this girl fought for her right to wear a Kara and said that it was so closely connected to her faith that for her it was a fundamental issue. Whatever the truth of that or not, it was contradicted by her name. If something is fundamental to your faith, this assumes that you are aware of more than the basics of that faith. She plainly was not and neither were those around her. Thus what then of the truth of the fundamental issue. The guru's teach us to be true in all that we do, think and say. To be truthful, one needs to examine and understand, before one speaks acts and thinks.
Secondly, in terms of freedoms, this is spoken of a lot, but what of everybody else's freedoms. The school has a right to say that it pupils come to learn and the best environment for that would be an equal and secular environment. They have a right to say that each pupil will wear a uniform, so that one child is not set apart from another. They have the right to ensure that the child whose parents can not afford the latest NIKE gear for their child is not made to feel different. They do this by a uniform policy.
Religion is taught at home Bhai and at the gurdwara's that we take our children to. It is not a competition or a legal battle for children, but one for adults.
As the world changes, we need to make sure we change with it and that we bring our children along so that they are included and their heritage is preserved. They need to be proud of it. They need to understand that as a Sikh, they are tolerant, and that our Lord is also tolerant. That they may not have taken Amrit that they may not have embraced the faith in its fullest sense, does not mean they have not embraced their Lord. To say to them that they are lesser Sikh's is to alienate them. That will serve our faith for the future.
Before you took Amrit, if somebody had said that you were not a Sikh, you would have rightly said NO, I AM AS SIKH AS YOU, you would have thought as you say that your slow and gentle road to yours Lords feet was a pathway that you were already on, but it is not for you to know the journey and how and when it ends, it is for you and for us to simply travel it with Wareguru in our hearts and on our lips.
I mean no Ninda, by referring to this girls name and her, but she has taken up the legal challenge and must therefore accept that she and her motives will be closely examined.
The contradictions of this matter and laid bare for all to see, they must make of them what they will. Ours is only to discuss them, judgment is for our lord to pass.
Hari Singh's final response
Bhai sahib ji,
Somethings we will have to agree to disagree on. Diversity and difference is the way of the Lord! I respect your views and we will have to accept that differences in outlook. I accept this totally and it is a healthy thing.
I wish to just clarify a few points:
Firstly, that by taking amrit one does not necessarily become a "better Sikh". The point I wish to make is that to be a Khalsa Sikh, one has to don the 5Ks. The next thing is that when one starts on this path, they do not become a Khalsa Sikh overnight. So they will start with perhaps just wearing one kakkar and changing their life style in one or two ways only.
Leaving out making a judgement about anyone, that is the way that most people become amritdhari. Now is one allowed to do this - ie don one or two of the kakkars without taking amrit. That is all I wished to ask?
The next thing is - Is one allowed to be a Khalsa Sikh? if the answer is yes, then, are they allowed to become a Khalsa Sikh a little bit at a time?
The next thing is the name. Is a Sikh who is not a Khalsa Sikh allowed to have a name like - Sarika Singh-Watkins? I cannot see anything wrong. I have spoke to various Sikh ladies who use their father's surname without using Kaur. The wife of the PM of India is sometimes referred to as Mrs Singh. The daughter of PM is something Singh?
I don't accept that "Religion is taught at home and at the gurdwara" - Sikhi is a way of life - When I was attending school in the UK, many years ago, RE was a mandatory subject. Ponder this, the younger sahibzada were 6 and 9 years old but knew right from wrong and gave their life for "their right"
Bhai sahib, I don't agree that we need to change with the world when the world is going downhill! Why did Guru Teg Bahadur stand for the Kashmiri Hindus? Guru ji did not support their ways, but the Guru could not allow the Mughals to force their ways on them - Guru ji gave their life to show that we must all accepts the "freedom of choice" of everyone.
A Sikh is bound by his or her duty to the Guru to wear the 5Ks, if he or she so wishes. Once you become a disciple of the Guru and you want to walk on the path of the Gurus then one of the things that you will need to do at some stage is to wear the Guru's uniform! Why is the school uniform more important than the Guru's uniform? Aren't the Guru's values just as important as the school values. Doesn't the Guru have an importance in today's world?
Bhai sahib ji, I bid you and your family peace and happiness. I respect your strong views and your guts to take a stand. May the Lord continue cherish you and your family. Waheguru ji ka Khalsa, Waheguru ji ki Fateh. das, Hari Singhtalk 21:22, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
