Talk:Akali Phula Singh

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1. Query by SS:

Respectfully Sikhwiki team,

I am wondering why it is necessary to mention "Jat" or any caste at all when giving biographical details of a Khalsa. For a Amrit Shakt Khalsa - the Jatt was sacrificed, the previous life was sort of deleted and Amrit was given. And, Guru Sahib ji said it is "manmat" to mention/ask a Khalsa's previous Cast.

2. Reply by HS

Dear Khalsa ji,

Many thanks for a very valid and understandable question. However, the fact that the caste of a person is mentioned does not necessarily go against the philosophy of our Gurus just like mentioning whether a person is male or female does not portray gender discrimination. The person's gender or his or her caste are facts which cannot be changed. However, when we discriminate a person due to their gender or caste that is when we overstep the mark and move away from Sikh values. The "trade" or caste of the original Panj pyare is well rehearsed in history and these were published during the time of the 10th Guru. Similarly, the "caste" of Bhai Mardana is well documented since the time of Guru Nanak. No where has the Guru asked the history writers to erase Bhai Mardana's background; nor have the rest of the Guru's done the same.

With respect we should not discriminate if one is of a different caste or gender but have equal respect for all. That I believe is the message of Sikhi - Its not do "a cover up" of the facts but to openly accept our different castes, people of different gender, colour, etc.

Regards, Hari Singhtalk 13:11, 5 May 2015 (CDT)

3. Akali Phulla Singh - mention of caste systems response by SS

Thanks for your reply on Akali Phula Singh Page. I don't know how to use Talk: and how to add a reply, it asked me to start a new sub-topic. I'm trying to decipher Help:Using_talk_pages. I don't wish to mess up the page with new responses and replies. Apologies in advance.

My question requires a deeper discussion. What you have mentioned is right, caste of Bhai Mardana is well documented and so as of others. But my dilemma is, during Guru Sahib's time, I'm sure there was no such thing as "Jatt" Khalsa or Rajput Khalsa, the case we often see today. During Gur Sahibs time people usually talked about the transformation through power of Amrit. But, these days fighting skills are usually associated with caste (Jatt da dera Gandasay te, Rajput da Bahu Ball Talwar etc etc.) Even after Amrit, people keep pretending to be Jat or Rajput or Ramgharia. These different caste, they never manage to exist on a common platform, hence we see Ramgharia Gurudawara, or Vehray walian da Gurudawara, or Budha Dal practising Chautha Paud pratha.

Whenever a historical figure is mentioned in Katha or an article like this one, people usually forget the true message, or what Sewa Akali Phulla Singh Ji did, how many hours did he meditate, but all they can focus is on his Jatt background. I have read many forums where people claim to Jat or Mazhabi Sikhs and each claiming to be the real Sikhs. Hence such descriptions on wiki articles give basis to a conflict and solidifies people's resolve, though unintentional.

We have to evolve a new mechanism ourselves (or by consulting various Sikh Jathebandis), come up with a solution to mention caste if necessary while keeping it out of focus. is it possible for you to add a short description and note. Say "Akali Phulla Singh was born Jatt, but after baptisation he was given last name as Khalsa, and readers should note that it is against principles of Sikhi to remember Akali Phulla singh as Jat. Something like that??

You mentioned, we must openly accept our different castes? Kindly explain, you mean, we must continue to accept the existence of caste system in Sikhism? must continue to be identified by our different castes? and encourage caste systems while being A Khalsa? Apologies in advance if I understood incorrectly.

4: Further response by HS

Dear Khalsa ji,

Your technical response / computer skill was fine. I have tidied up the different section dealing with this conversation. Normally you would only press the "+" sign and type your response but you cannot see the text to which you are replying! So please just manage as best as possible.

You are right that after taking Amrit, one cannot be said to belong to any "caste". You are also right that we should limit the use and references to caste and use them as little as possible. However, just because we do not use these words does not mean that discrimination based on caste will go away; it may become "hidden" in that it will not be mentioned that frequently but people may still feel that their caste is "superior" and other castes are inferior and so on.

I will give your proposal more thought and revert back soon. Best regards, Hari Singhtalk 15:11, 6 May 2015 (CDT)

5. Further discussion appreciated - Shastarsewak

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji ki Fateh!

Thank you for listening and prompt response. Khalsa ji, Guru Sahib gave us great responsibilities, though it is true that all "action" is granted by Waheguru himself, but we must keep doing Ardas for help, and this cast system must be eradicated from Khalsa brotherhood. Perhaps, we can evolve a system to tackle this problem one step at a time. You see, I have had one very disheartening experience, some Nihung singhs came to visit me from Chamkaur Sahib, and they all certified that Buddha Dal Chowni under control of Balbir Singh is practising Chautha Paud pratha. I wonder how this pratha got into Panjva Takht. Can you imagine, fully Tyar Bar Tyar rehat maryada practising Nihung Singh being asked to sit and eat separately? Sangat must have knowledge of such practises, and Sangat has all the power to rectify the system. This is why I am so keen to scrutinize mentioning of caste system in Articles. Please consult around, we will come up with a solution sooner or later.


6. Many thanks, Bhai sahib ji

Waheguru ji ka Khalsa, Waheguru ji ki Fateh

I agree that these are practises which do not belong to Sikhi. Every person must be treated as an equal and that is made very very clear by our Guru. The langar must be in one pangat - this is a clear sign of equality. We cannot have difference when it comes to the basic treatment of other humans in the aspect of our basis need for food. The principle of "Wand shakna" is a core belief of Sikhi. More focus needs to be placed to these fundamental values rather than following man created "rehats" which take us away from the basic tenets of Sikhi as stated in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib.

I will revert more thoroughly in due course.

Guru de fateh, Best regards,
Hari Singhtalk 09:32, 10 May 2015 (CDT)