Aethist Society on Sikhi
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http://www.golshan.com/rationalthinking/sikhism.htm
Sikhism
From: "Atheist Society" <[email protected]>
Subject: Dear Ali we have a problem, please help!
Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2001 20:40:30 +0000
Dear Ali, please help us. We were very impressed with your website and
agreed that religion in general is no longer needed, we can all be
humanistic and live in peace and harmony. We are in the process of
making a website which will hopefully help to destroy the religious
doctrines which divide humanity. We were doing great with knocking
out Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, Baha'i, even Buddhism but
we have gotten very stuck with Sikhism. This religion is (to put it nicely)
"a big pain in the ass" (Please pardon the language) We have only
found one site which tries (very poorly) to argue that even this religion is
not needed, but the argument is irrational and very unscientific unlike
the very rational arguments you use. When we read the following from
your website, we found what you said to be amazingly interesting:
"Doubt Everything Find Your Own Light."
"Last Words
Dear friend, if you look for meaning in life, don’t look for it in religions;
don’t go from one cult to another or from one guru to the next. You
can expend all your life or look for eternity and will find nothing but
disappointment and disillusionment. Look instead in service to
humanity. You will find “meaning” in your love for other human beings.
You can experience God when you help someone who needs your
help. The only truth that counts is the love that we have for each other.
This is absolute and real. The rest is mirage, fancies of human
imagination and fallacies of our own making." By Ali Sina
Why is this interesting? Because we found this religion of Sikhism to be in
agreement with you! This is why we have a problem. We tried to look at
their holy text (Adi Granth) but didnt find the usual absurdities we found
in the other religious books. In fact its refreshingly inspiring and very
good!? Maybe you can have some better luck. We tried to visit a
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couple of websites and got more of a shock. Did you know that they
believed in Democracy, freedom of speech, choice, expression,
freedom of religion, pluralism, human rights, equality between men and
women, equality of all people regardless of race, religion, caste, creed,
status etc. 300 years before the existance of the USA! Theirs is the only
religion which says in their religious scriptures that women are equal in
every respect to men. They even had women soldiers leading armies in
to battle against "you know who" (The usual suspects - Muslims!) Their
history is a proud one, they fought in both World Wars. Even Hitler
praised them for their bravery and Aryan heritage!
Dear Ali, this religion is hard for us to try and criticise but you are an
expert and may find some faults overlooked by us. In their holy book,
there is a round earth, water is made from chemical elements, there is
even mention of the evoution process, big bang and life on other
planets! This is pretty crazy and amazing stuff, who would have thought
that these New York taxi drivers (There are lots of Sikh taxi drivers in NY)
would have such an amzing faith? We read up some information of
what Bertrand Russell had to say about Sikhism, this is the man who
destroyed Christianity (same applies to Islam and Judaism) and
exposed its absurdities, but even this great man got stuck when it
came to Sikhism! In fact he gave up and said
"that if some lucky men survive the onslaught of the third world war of
atomic and hydrogen bombs, then the Sikh religion will be the only
means of guiding them.
Russell was asked that he was talking about the third world war, but isn't
this religion capable of guiding mankind before the third world war?
In reply, Russell said, "Yes, it has the capability, but the Sikhs have not
brought out in the broad daylight, the splendid doctrines of this religion
which has come into existence for the benefit of the entire mankind.
This is their greatest sin and the Sikhs cannot be freed of it."
Please bear in mind that Bertrand Russell was a great philosopher and
free thinker. We have been trying for weeks now to find a way to fairly
and rationally criticize and find fault with this religion but have failed.
We even found out that there are many people converting to this
religion in the USA and Europe as well as Russia (Mostly well educated
and affluent white people). We tried to find some of their literature and
see what kind of claims they make, but unfortunatley they have no
missionary material as they do not have missionsaries! People become
Sikh by learning usually by chance or by coming in to contact with
them. They are currently the 5th biggest religion in the world and
growing quite fast in the west and Russia.
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Please help us as we are stuck, to give you an example of they are all
about we found the following websites:
http://www.sikhnet.com (This is a pretty good site and helpful)
http://www.hope.at/sikhism (This site is very easy to follow, check it out,
they have a Womans section and a Martyrs section, it looks like that
you are not the only one trying to expose the falseness of Islam, Sikhs
scholars did it hundreds of years ago and got killed for it!)
http://www.sikhs.org (This is the site that was on CNN when Sikhs in the
USA were mistaken for Arabs and Middle Easterners and were attacked
by mindless morons)
Please help us out, we cant make our website about religion being the
cause of war and disharmony when we have this one and only religion
which makes a hell of a lot of sense! lol (I thought Atheism had all the
answers but were kind of stuck now.)
We look forward to hearing from you, we respect your great views and
want to promote them to everyone, thank you for your time, take care.
Dr. John Smith
Dear Dr. John Smith,
Thanks for the email. First of all let me assure you that I have not
embarked on the mission to destroy all the religions. If the belief in a
religion makes you happy and content, please go for it.
My purpose in writing is to fight against hate not against faith. There are
many religions that preach good things. Buddhism, Zoroastrianism and
Baha'i are the examples. Even there is lots of goodness in Christianity. I
am afraid I have little knowledge of Sikhism. I cannot agree or disagree
with your enthusiasm about this religion. I admit that my knowledge of
Sikhism is very superficial. I live in a part of Canada that has a big
population of Sikhs. They have many temples here and we often hear
they fight over ridiculous things like whether they should sit on chairs or
on the floor. There has been also some shootings and assassinations
among the moderate and the fundamentalist faction of the Sikhs over,
who should be in control of the temple and handle the funds.
You perhaps have more information of the tenets of Sikhism, but as
Christ said, "you'll know them by their fruits". When I see the Sikhs, I do
not see much difference between them and the rest of the people. As
the matter of fact many of them are shrewd businessmen but many
people try not to deal with them because of their bad reputation.
(unreliable, bad service, etc) I personally have great business
associates among them and have been dealing with them for years. I
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have had bad experiences with some of them but those with whom I
stay put are trustworthy and I am very pleased of them.
As I said my intention is not to fight religions. I want to fight hateful
doctrines not false beliefs. I personally would not endorse any belief
system. I encourage rational thinking, independent thinking and
freethinking. Religious thinking is opposed to that. In any religion you
have a guru, a prophet or a messenger who is inspired by superior
knowledge and all the the rest are followers. Independent thinking is
encouraged as long a it does not contradict with the thinking of the
leader. This brings stagnation of thought. One is given certain liberties
to think on his own but s/he is not allowed to exceed the limits set by
the original guru. The words of prophet or the guru are the ultimate
balance to distinguish between the right and the wrong.
I recall few years ago there was a legal fight where the Sikhs wanted to
enter into RCMP (Royal Canadian Mounted Police) and keep their
turban. In my opinion this was the sign of backwardness because it
showed that the followers of Sikhism are unable to adapt with time. I
was sorry when the politicians bent the rule and allowed Sikh police
wear turbans because they wanted their votes.
All those good teachings that you attribute to Sikhism exist in many
other religions. As a matter of fact Bahaism is the most advanced
doctrine. Bahais also do not have that negative image that the Sikhs
have left of themselves like their outdated dress code, hair code,
ceremonial dagger and a history of violence. You praised the Sikhs for
their bravery and for fighting against Islam. In my opinion Baha'is are
much more brave for facing Muslims without any fight, sword or
violence. This is bravery.
Anyway, I do not wish to refute any religion if that religion does not
advocate violence or threaten the peace of the world. But I have
chosen not to be a follower. I was a follower and now I am a
freethinker. Freethinking is better. I think the desire to be a follower (of
any religion) stems from the fact that people are not yet mature and
like children do not have the self reliance to choose their own ways.
They need someone else telling them what is right and what is not.
It is interesting however, that the same brainwashed followers brag
about the good teachings of their religions to prove that their way is
better. One wonders if they know that these teachings are good, they
must have used their own judgment, and if they have used their own
judgment then they are perfectly capable to distinguish between the
good and the bad. So why they need these religions to begin with?
You enumerated all the good teachings of Sikhism. If you KNOW that
these are good teachings, why you need to follow someone to tell you
what you already know? What if this person you want to follow tell you:
"kill the unbelievers, beat your wife or cut the hands of the thief" would
you still follow him blindly? If you believe in him you should. But if you
take the exception to these barbaric teachings then you are using your
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independent thinking and in that case following a guru or a prophet is
superfluous.
Kind regards
Ali Sina
Ryan on Sikhism
Ryan Ryan <[email protected]>
Ryan Responds to Ali Sina on Sikhism:
Hi Ali, I sent you an e-mail about 2 days ago and havent recieved a reply, so I guess youre
busy. Here is my response to your Sikhism debate. Please add it when you have the chance. I
have dissected this argument so I can make my points easier.
Ali – “Dear Dr. John Smith,
Thanks for the email. First of all let me assure you that I have not embarked on the mission to
destroy all the religions. If the belief in a religion makes you happy and content, please go for
it.
My purpose in writing is to fight against hate not against faith. There are many religions that
preach good things. Buddhism, Zoroastrianism and Baha'i are the examples. Even there is lots
of goodness in Christianity.”
Yes Ali, there are good things in these religions but there are also some absurdities right? I
mean many absurdities regardless of the way they are interpreted? I mean literal ones not
philosophical ones (depending on the philosophy of course!).
“I am afraid I have little knowledge of Sikhism. I cannot agree or disagree with your enthusiasm
about this religion. I admit that my knowledge of Sikhism is very superficial.”
Well Ill try and help you out there.
“I live in a part of Canada that has a big population of Sikhs. They have many temples here and
we often hear they fight over ridiculous things like whether they should sit on chairs or on the
floor.”
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Well Sikhs are only human and do not necessarily reflect their faith. There are many African
Americans who are criminals, doesn’t mean the actual ‘race’ is bad right?
“There has been also some shootings and assassinations among the moderate and the
fundamentalist faction of the Sikhs over, who should be in control of the temple and handle the
funds.”
Still, that’s a political and financial dispute, it’s not over the actual religion they are fighting.
“You perhaps have more information of the tenets of Sikhism, but as Christ said, "you'll know
them by their fruits".”
Jesus said a lot of things, they weren’t all necessarily ‘good’. In a way Christ had a good point
but that doesn’t mean this standard is the right one to apply in all cases. Again if we look at the
African Americans, they have a high crime rate and a high prison population. Doesn’t mean
that all black people are bad does it? Most likely it’s the environment they are bought up in.
“When I see the Sikhs, I do not see much difference between them and the rest of the people.”
Well they’re only human.
“As the matter of fact many of them are shrewd businessmen but many people try not to deal
with them because of their bad reputation. (unreliable, bad service, etc)”
Bill Gates is a very shrewd businessman, he is famous for it, his company’s products are often
criticized as being of poor quality and functionality, it still doesn’t make him a bad person does
it? He has given away millions to charity and poor people!
“I personally have great business associates among them and have been dealing with them for
years.”
So at least you know that they are not ALL bad. :-)
“I have had bad experiences with some of them but those with whom I stay put are trustworthy
and I am very pleased of them.”
Well like I said, there’s always a few who spoil the party.
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“As I said my intention is not to fight religions. I want to fight hateful doctrines not false beliefs.”
Good and noble goal, I wish you well.
“I personally would not endorse any belief system.”
Why? Have you studies ALL religions?
“I encourage rational thinking, independent thinking and freethinking.”
Good, so do I, and so does Sikhism. Sikh literally means a ‘seeker of truth’
“Religious thinking is opposed to that.”
Yes, most religions are, but not Sikhism.
“In any religion you have a guru, a prophet or a messenger who is inspired by superior
knowledge and all the the rest are followers.”
True to a point but not in Sikhism. In this religion, its Gurus (literally meaning ‘Teachers’) taught
people to stop believing in nonsense ideas and pointless
rituals. They encouraged free thinking and the use of common sense. The religion started in a
place called Punjab, in the modern day country of India, it began in the 1400’s. India was ruled
by the Muslims at that time, but the majority religion was Hinduism. The Gurus pointed out the
absurdities in both and said that the Hindu ‘caste system’ and ill treatment of women was
wrong. They stated that ALL people are equal, they even said that they were not superior in
anyway, they were ordinary people who believed in goodness and love of all humanity, they
want to encourage others to think they same way. Sikhism is the only religion which clearly
says that “Women are equal to men”, as well as many other noble teachings. I know Baha’I
claims the same about equality but Sikhism said it first! Ali why do we go to school? Because
we need to learn about things we don’t know and to get educated in general as well as to
become ‘better’ people. The teachers are more or less our guides, they teach us important
information etc.
“Independent thinking is encouraged as long a it does not contradict with the thinking of the
leader.”
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Not in Sikhism, it says that you are allowed to think anything you want, you are allowed to
question everything in it. I have done it myself and have come to the conclusion it’s a great
faith. But Ill explain that later.
“This brings stagnation of thought. One is given certain liberties to think on his own but s/he is
not allowed to exceed the limits set by the original guru.”
Again, not the case in Sikhism. In fact, Sikhism is quite in tune with Science. It is the only
religion I have seen that doesn’t go against evolution! Also Doctor Smith in his initial post
mentioned some other facts in Sikhism. This is quite amazing when you consider that the
religion is more than 500 years old and nobody else knew that information in the 1400’s!.
“The words of prophet or the guru are the ultimate balance to distinguish between the right and
the wrong.”
No Ali, in Sikhism, the Gurus only guide you to be a better person, they encourage you too look
for knowledge and to better your life and of those around you. If a problem comes up then the
words of the Guru are there to guide you but you don’t have to follow
them if you ‘think’ you know better. However, I haven’t seen anything bad in the Sri Guru
Granth Sahib (SGGS), the Sikh holy scriptures which gives bad advice. Theres a lot of great
advice.
“I recall few years ago there was a legal fight where the Sikhs wanted to enter into RCMP
(Royal Canadian Mounted Police) and keep their turban.”
So what? What’s wrong with that?
“In my opinion this was the sign of backwardness because it showed that the followers of
Sikhism are unable to adapt with time. “
No Ali, this is not backwardness, now you are applying your own personal standards of what is
‘modern’ – what gives YOU that right? Tomorrow some young high school kid might tell you
that you’re ‘1970’s’ style hair cut is ‘backward’ Now would that be right? :-) Does that mean that
the young man is right? No, because even if we ignore the religious reason, its can still be all
about personal choice. Many people wear a baseball cap, is that backwards? They as citizens
have every right to be treated equally. Wearing a turban is a symbol of their faith. There is no
harm in them wearing it. Or do you feel it is harmful in some way?
“I was sorry when the politicians bent the rule and allowed Sikh police wear turbans because
they wanted their votes.”
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Ali, are you intolerant or what? If you are getting mugged or about to be killed and some guy
with comes and saves your life, are you gonna say “no don’t save me, you have a turban on!”?
Who cares? How does it get in the way of him saving your life? Also how did they bend a rule?
Not all rules are right are they? Look at how many laws get repealed. Only as recently as 1993,
millions of people were treated as second class citizens in South Africa (their OWN country!). It
was the law that blacks can not go in white areas! Now tell me, was it wrong for the politicians
to repeal the evil Apartheid rules? Was it right for Nazi Germany to make laws to persecute
Jews? Was Gandhi right to break the ‘salt’ law in which he asserted his right to go to the sea
and make salt? Not all laws are necessarily right or good.
“All those good teachings that you attribute to Sikhism exist in many other religions.”
Yes but other religions also have absurdities which are absurd beyond belief. Sikhism doesn’t
have these absurdities. I am not talking about the philosophical parts of a faith as philosophy is
open to interpretation. When some guy said “The World is your oyster” he didn’t mean it in the
litteral sense. Do you see my point? I mean the parts like when it says “kill all the unbelievers”
in the Koran. This isn’t philosophy, this is a CLEAR instruction. It is absurdities like these I am
talking about.
“As a matter of fact”
FACT? Careful Ali, now you may be jumping to some obscure conclusions :-)
“Bahaism is the most advanced doctrine.”
Really? Based on what? I beg to differ Ali. Ill do this later in the debate. But I seriously think
that the Baha’i faith is fundamentally flawed.
“Bahais also do not have that negative image that the Sikhs have left of themselves like their
outdated dress code,”
Again you apply YOUR own standards, what if a kid says “Hey Ali, whats with the grandfather
70’s clothes?” Again on what grounds do you say it is outdated? Clothes are clothes. What
about mini skirts? They came out in the 60’s and went out. They are back in again. Indian
women have worn saris (a long cloth type garment wrapped around there bodies) for 5000
years, they still wear them. Again my learned friend just because YOU consider something
outdated, doesn’t mean it is. Clothes are a part of individual choice. Also they are optional, not
mandatory.
“hair code,”
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Symbolic only, it is not mandatory but again, what’s wrong with long hair? There are many
people in Scandanavian countries who have long hair, again there are many Sikhs who have
hair cuts too. There is a choice.
“ceremonial dagger”
This is a symbolic item, it is actually meant for protection of the weak and defenceless. It
doesn’t have to be a big dagger in this day and age, you can get a key ring size one. Its all
symbolic nowadays Ali. But in some countries you would do well to carry one. In Mughal India,
they had to carry one as they were being heavily persecuted. These days of course there is no
persecution, now its like the cross that Christians wear, only symbolic.
“and a history of violence.”
Depends on which violence your talking about Ali, if you actually read Sikh history then you’ll
see that they fought in both World Wars against the Nazis and many defensive wars in India
against the Islamic invaders and persecutors. You should know what this feels like because
your own country Iran is a defeated nation, whereas Sikhs are not. (no offence) Violence is not
always a bad or evil thing, sometimes it makes the difference between survival and extinction!
“You praised the Sikhs for their bravery and for fighting against Islam. In my opinion Baha'is are
much more brave for facing Muslims without any fight, sword or violence.”
Even I praise them for their bravery. The Doctor is right to do so. Ali, if you knew anything
about Indian history then you’ll understand why the Sikhs HAD to fight. The Baha’I were in Iran
in the 19th century, by this time Islam in Iran was nothing compared to tyrannical Mughal India.
The Baha’I would have been wiped out in 16th century India, like the millions of non-violent
Buddhists in Sindh province were!. The Sikhs used non-violence for 200 years but it didn’t
soften the Muslims resolve to convert them by force.
80 million Hindus were slaughtered because of using non-violence, tell me, how much crap
should a person put up with? Until they are nearly wiped out? Look at Bangladesh, Pakistan,
Kashmir etc. They are Muslim majority nations, you know why? Because they didn’t fight back,
they were defeated and are now enslaved in Islam. Sounds similar to Iran. Where did non-
violence get the Buddhists in Afghanistan? They were crushed
easily and were forced converted to Islam, the effects of which are still being felt today.
(Taliban etc.)
“This is bravery.”
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No Ali, non-violence when taken to absurd limits is sheer STUPIDITY! Not bravery. When a
person is willing to risk their own neck for the sake of others, that is bravery. When one fights
back to protect their people and family, their rights to freedom and liberty, instead of
‘submitting’ like a coward, that is bravery. Gandhi was a believer in non-violence and it worked
against the British, because they had a conscience, against Hitler he would have been crushed
mercilessly.
“Anyway, I do not wish to refute any religion if that religion does not advocate violence or
threaten the peace of the world.”
That’s cool with me.
“But I have chosen not to be a follower.”
Nor me, but there’s nothing wrong with being a student
right? Nothing wrong with learning is there?
“I was a follower and now I am a freethinker.”
I’m a free thinker too. Well at least I like to think so.
“Freethinking is better.”
Yes it is.
“I think the desire to be a follower (of any religion) stems from the fact that people are not yet
mature and like children do not have the self reliance to choose their own ways.”
True, but what if an ideology promotes free thought anyway, then what’s wrong with that? I
mean I vote for the republican party, I agree with their ideology, doesn’t mean I cant think for
myself does it? Just means that I agree with them, that’s all.
“They need someone else telling them what is right and what is not.”
Yes and No. In school we do a lot of things, some are good and some are bad. We need
teachers to tell us the difference sometimes. Same in adulthood, we still sometimes cannot
distinguish between right and wrong because we ALL have different value systems. For
example, my friend, she works in a hotel, she steals their stuff, stationary, towels, toiletries etc.
I think she is wrong but she thinks she right, she says that there is no harm in it, the hotel
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makes millions in profit, what’s a few bucks worth of items? But I still say its stealing but she
doesn’t agree! See what I mean? My values are not necessarily the same as hers. So
sometimes we need some ‘guidance’ right?
“It is interesting however, that the same brainwashed followers brag about the good teachings
of their religions to prove that their way is better.”
True, but not in Sikhism, they don’t look for converts, people become Sikh of their own free will
once they learn about the faith. Also there’s nothing wrong with comparing ideologies is there?
If we didn’t compare the ideologies of political parties we wouldn’t know who to vote for right?
“One wonders if they know that these teachings are good, they must have used their own
judgment, and if they have used their own judgment then they are perfectly capable to
distinguish between the good and the bad.”
Not necessarily Ali, like I said about my friend who steals petty items, there are many gray
areas. There are many things we sometimes are not sure about. For example, human cloning,
there are lots of people who are for it and lots against it. Same with Abortion, so many people
cant make up their minds. That’s where we could do with the help of a ‘guide’ right? Also many
people follow ideologies they themselves agree with. If I vote republican, or for Bush, then I do
so because I agree with the party politics. If I agree with a religion a great deal, and it makes
sense to
me, then why not use its guidance? I might get to a point in my life where I might have to make
a tough decision, the religion might have the answer I am looking for? Do u see my point?
“So why they need these religions to begin with? You enumerated all the good teachings of
Sikhism. If you KNOW that these are good teachings, why you need to follow someone to tell
you what you already know?”
Because Ali, as well as the reasons I have explained above, a person like the good Doctor is
probably a middle aged man with a university degree and years of solid education behind him, I
am sure he wasn’t born with all that intelligence and knowledge he has? It took him years to
attain that level of knowledge and wisdom. However, most people are not as good as him or
you. Most people are not Doctors and do not go to universities etc. They do not get the chance
to develop their minds, and it is these people that religion (Well Sikhism anyway) can help. It
can help intelligent people too, but especially the ignorant people who believe in nonsense and
cannot use their own minds, the ones who still believe in fairy tales. Sikhism is not like other
‘religions’, it does not claim absolute truth and knowledge. It doesn’t not make silly claims like
the Bible and Koran etc.
Although there are many fascinating scientific concepts in it.
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“What if this person you want to follow tell you: "kill the unbelievers, beat your wife or cut the
hands of the thief" would you still follow him blindly?”
Ali, Sikhism doesn’t say that, nor does it ask you to ‘follow’ blindly, it asks you to use your own
logic
and rational thinking. Sikhism is supposed to be a guide. It believes in one ‘God’ or ‘creative
force’ or ‘life force’ and its real aim is to help you ‘reach’ God.
“If you believe in him you should. But if you take the exception to these barbaric teachings then
you are using your independent thinking and in that case following a guru or a prophet is
superfluous.”
No Ali, it depends on an individuals value system. Although I don’t agree with ‘killing’ there are
many who do. Not everyone is ‘good’ or ‘humanistic’ – Someone like Hitler would have no
problem in killing someone else. Also in Sikhism the Guru doesn’t ask you to follow him, they
ask you to follow your own common sense. Sikhism believes in God, which is the only thing
you can try to make an argument against. But I can even answer that it you want, but Ill let you
ask me first of how I can come to a LOGICAL conclusion that a ‘God’ or ‘creative force’ exists!
Also you are
using the term ‘Guru’ incorrectly. It means ‘Teacher’ - Just like a teacher teaches you science,
math or English at school, a true Guru teaches you about ‘life’ and ‘God’ in the same way.
Ryan