Talk:Dasam Granth

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evidence first

The first question is: What is the dating of the oldest text? Using a scientific method like carbon dating


Moving Akali Nihangs

The section written on the Akali Nihangs under 'The Controversy' should be moved to a more appropriate section? Doesn't seem to gel quite well with current article--Navroopsehmi 04:04, 31 Mar 2005 (Pacific Standard Time)


Just taken this 'Akali Nihangs' out, think it may be mre relevant someplace else --Navroop Singh 08:14, 3 Apr 2005 (Pacific Daylight Time)

Akali Nihang Singh Khalsa and the Guru Granth Sahib:

For the followers of the Akali Nihang Singh Khalsa, the traditional martial Sikhs, Sri Dasam Guru Durbar is revered as equally holy as Aad Guru Durbar (now "the Guru Granth Sahib") as well as Sarbloh Guru Durbar (literally "The Book of Pure Iron")which is also written by the 10th Guru, Guru Gobind Singh. For more information view www.shastarvidiya.org

Who are the followers of Akali Nihang Singh Khalsa? :

Akali Nihangs are part of the People of Punjab that observe the teachings of Shikhism. However, the Akali Nihangs only recognize the Sikh teachings that were prevalent before the British Rule of Punjab. These traditional teachings are the Khalsa traditions of ‘Dal Panth’ (meaning, ‘way of the army’ or ‘nation that is the army’).

Akali Nihang Singh Khalsa and the Dal Panth:

Dal Panth refers to the Akali Nihang Dals and Sach Khand Hazoor Sahib, Nanded, Maharashtra. Akali Nihangs DO NOT recognize ANY Khalsa institution which was established by or during British Raj or afterwards

Acknowledgement of and full respect to the Khalsa Panths, Hindu 'Kyshatriya' (warrior) ancestors such as Siri Raam Chander, Krishan Maharaj, origins, heritage and other past warriors

The Akali Nihangs do not speak about themselves as ‘Hindu’, however, they do see themselves as part of the greater Hindu Indian nation. For example, at Sach Khand Hazoor Sahib, Nanded, Maharashtra, like all 'Hazoori Sikhs', Nihangs will freely intermarry with Hindu women

Satgurbani vs Dasam Granth

The Guru Granth Sahib deals solely with saintly aspects of faith and devotion to God through such means. Dasam Granth tells of ancient battles fought between Hindu Demigods in an explanation of traditional Indian martial arts. Sarbloh Granth conists of salutations of weapons and relates to upholding the universal laws of righteousness on the battle field.


So these stories about "ancient battles fought between Hindu Demigods in an explanation of traditional Indian martial arts" should be read in that context only, these stories cannot be treated equal to Gurbani-Guru Granth Sahib and Guru Gobind Singh Ji rightly proclaimed so.[ Hazoor Singh]


Spiliting it

I have just split out your comment above to make it easier to follow.

At the end of the first Chandi Chitra, Guru Gobind Singh writes: "I have merely narrated the story, which is the human drama. This has been completed and whosoever reads it will obtain the objective."

The above comment, that the Chandi Dhitra "is an explanation of traditional Indian martial arts" is their own opinion, many others state that the functions of these compositions are to inspire valour on the eve of battle. An interesting article by Dalip Singh can be read at Dalip Singh article on Chandi hopefully some of this will be readable on the site. --Navroop Singh 03:14, 8 Apr 2005 (Pacific Daylight Time)


"Dasam Granth..is not..with..Sti Gur Granth Sahib"

Navroop Singh Ji,I believe, the Institution of Akal Takhat shall one day put to rest any confusion/controversy about the Dasam Granth. In principle I believe that any Bani of Dasam Granth which is not in line with the philosophy of Sri Guru Granth Sahib should be segregated from the rest. Sikhism is a dynamic religion and such changes should be acceptable. Afterall Banis of contradictory philosophy need not be bound together, it will benefit the present and future generations. Moreover, by doing so, due respect will be accorded to the Bani which is in line with the philosophy of Sri Guru Granth Sahib. Sikhs don't believe in Chandi or any other Demi God of Sanatan faith and for Martial spirit and Valour I really don't believe that Sikhs need recitation of such stories. Also I am at trouble to think that Guru Gobind Singh Ji, who was a poet par-excellence depended on Sanatan stories to infuse valour and martial spirits in His Beloved Khalsa. Do you really feel that Sikhs would have been in the past and shall in the future lacked or lack Martial Spirits and Valour without "Chandi Dee Vaar"?? If at all these are the works of Guru Gobind Singh Ji or Darbari Poets it must be to expose the shallowness of many "Hindu" practices. Giani Lal Singh have done good work on Dasam Granth published by SGPC. [Hazoor Singh]


Maan Yog Hazoor Singh ji! I agree with you without any condition what so ever. Amita Singh11 nov 05, Delhi


"you've misunderstood me"

Hazoor Singh ji, your name has immediatly reminded me that at Hazoor Sahib, both the Guru Granth Sahib and Dasam Granth are placed side by side. In 1942, on the birth celebration of Guru Nanak Dev ji, two Akhand Paths were held at the Akal Takht Sahib: One of Guru Granth Sahib and one of Dasam Granth (from article by Giani Gurdit Singh). In my opinion the Akal Takht already has settled controversy - the seminars and their findings as stated in the article show this + in recent years, writings and their authors defaming the Dasam Granth have been both banned at excommunicated.

It's interesting to note that the 'Chandi compositions' are not really the controversial ones, it's the Tria Charitra and Hikayats which people have problems with (I personally haven't yet read these). Also to note is that the begining of Chandi di Var forms the begining of the Ardas: "Sri Bhagauti ji Sahai, Var Sri Bhagauti Ji Ki, Patshah Dasveen, Pritham Bhagauti Simar ke, Guru Nanak Layee Dihaea..."

I think you've misunderstood me at a certain stage. I never said that Sikhs depended on these compositions, or Guru Gobind Singh depended on these compositions, these are to inspire valour; one can surely not deny that literature/music has that effect. When I hear the Sakhis of Guru Gobind Singh I am inspiried; When I hear of Guru Arjan Dev ji's martyrdom, I am humbled; When I hear of Guru Tegh Bahadur ji's sacrifice, I am twice humbled; When I hear of Guru Nanak Dev ji, I am filled with love. When I listen to kirtan, I am inspired to love; When I hear a rendition of "Deh he Shiva..", my back straightens upright. When I read the bani of the Dasam Granth where Guru Gobind Singh describes his own battles, I become fearless, they without a doubt inspire courage and valour. But similarly, when I read of the struggles of Malcolm X (but how?! he's a muslim!), I am inspired.

The problem is that these banis of the Dasam Granth are being sensationalised, and people are jumping to find out what is contained within them. They read Chandi di Var without reading the Akal Ustat or Jaap Sahib, in fact they are reading without first going to Guru Granth Sahib ji. And as a result, when they come up against mention of mythlogical gods, their faith shakens. Why? By using myth as a basis, Guru Sahib has become an idol worshipper?!?!? The same Guru Gobind Singh who in the Dasam Granth describes himself as "the breaker of idols"? Let's not forget that these Sikhs, were probably Hindus before brought up with and steeped in Hindu mythology. It is precisely for the fact that Guru Sahib was a poet par-excellence, that he has translated these stories into the most equisite poetry. There is a Sakhi (see Macauliffe's 'The Sikh Religion') whereby the story of 'Gopi Chand' was told in the Guru's Darbar, and the sangat present were deeply moved. Some complained to Guru Gobind Singh, that such-and-such had recited something which was not Gurbani. Guru Gobind Singh replied that as long as the story brought people's minds towards God, then it did not matter, but stories/plays which distracted them away from God were harmful.

With regards to Sikhs not needing valour/martial spirit, remember that just as Sikhs supported Guru Gobind Singh against all odds, 'Sikhs' did also leave him. Yes, Guru Gobind Singh gave us Amrit and made us sparrows into hawks, but if one stayed with Gurmat. It is well known that Guru Gobind Singh kept 52 bards in his darbar (also see Vidyadhar) and that they used to recite heroic vars (ballads) which inspired people; just like the dhadhi jathas do. I've read that many Nihang Singh's recite Chandi di Var as part of their daily Nitnem.

Chandi di Var is only one composition. I think there were/are(?) probably many many more, but they have unfortunately been lost over time (e.g Vidyadhar)

Please register with the site and set-up an account, you can then add a 'signature' at the base of comments, so one can know who is saying what. --Navroop Singh 08:11, 8 Apr 2005 (Pacific Daylight Time)


"Arati is recited"

Navroop Singh Ji: I will not be judgemental or will not express my opinion as to the authenticity of Dasam Granth Banis. Reason being 1. I am not qualified to do so and I don't have resources to research the material. 2. The matter is still under consideration of Akal Takhat though in the back burner. Having said so, I would like to state that freedom of conscience will always be there. Like you I am also aware of very convincing thesis and anti-thesis on Dasam Granth. You very rightly said that we should study and understand Sri Guru Granth Sahib's Bani in the first place. I am also of the view, that study and understanding of Sri Guru Granth Sahib will act as a filter, manmatti bani will automatically filter out.

It won't be out of place to state that we as students of Sikh history have to look out for distortions in Sikh history and literature done successfully under Brahminwadi influence during the dark period of Masand control of Sikh Institutions. Also we must respect in letter and spirit Guru Gobind Singh Ji's proclamation that Sri Guru Granth Sahib is Sampooran in itself. Sampooran for a "Sant-Sipahi" - the ultimate human being - mission of evolving which started with Guru Nanak Dev Ji and taken to completion by Guru Gobind Singh Ji.

You mentioned that in 1942 Dasam Granth Prakash was done at Sri Hazoor Sahib. I don't think it carries any weight as to the authenticity of "Dasam Granth". In the same Gurudwara, Arati is recited like a "Hindu" ritual, so should we believe it to be approved by Guru Gobind Singh Ji? --Hazoor Singh 01:17, 9 Apr 2005 (Pacific Daylight Time)

Is it a TRUTH that CHANDI CHARITA... ?

  • 1. ...came into being throgh 10th GURU's Pen.
  • 2. My above thought is with reference to Navroop Singh Ji refering to it on this page as under :-
"...At the end of the first Chandi Chitra, Guru Gobind Singh writes: I have merely
narrated the story, which is the human drama...'"
  • 3. Look forward to objective guidance/SikhiWiki Scholars' perception on the issue.

YES

??

No

??

-Amita Singh

# Speak the unspoken --Satgur

# Akhan jor Chupy nahin Jor.....

# Mera Man Lochy Gur Darshan....

# ..He Sharawanon mereyo Sachy Sunne nu Pathay..

# Gur(Sikhiwiki) mere sang sada hai naaly..

#..Bhau dua...

O TRUTH god !, O Satgur !, O Khalsa ! living in SACH KHAND.

...Aakh Kush(say Some Thing). Mutia's Mat need to listen to Sat Gur & get some jor (Strength from TRUE IDEA)User:Mutia 21 Nov06

Akhan Jor, Chupyy nahin Jor

  • NirBhau, NirVyyr
  • Soora`so Pahichaniyy...
  • SatGur Bajho hor Kacchi hai baani.
  • Sikhs believe in nothing but ONE of every thing.
  • Modern management goes for best option no way the Second Best.
  • ManMukhs love duality.
  • Speak the unspoken Truth.
  • Gajj ke Bolo.

...Jo Bolyy so nihaal--User:Mutia 09 Apr o7

Sikhs not to honour Dasam granth


Wow a lot has been said/ fortune telling / definition of Padshah/lack of consistancy?

Guru Gobind Singh did not believe in telling the future did he? Did he do this, as a recent edit to the intro suggests?


From the Oxford dictionary ——pad(i)shah title applied to the Shah of Persia, Sultan of Turkey. Great Mogul, etc. XVII. — Pers. pĝdšĝh, in poetry pĝdišah :- Pahlavi pĝtaxšĝ(h), f. OPers. pati ( = Skr. pati) master, lord, ruler + S.ĝh king, SHAH.


The above is the oxford dictionary definition of Padshah the ect. must refer to Guru Gobind Sing as used by Sikhs of his times. He like all the Gurus since Guru Hargobind were Masters of (Miri and Piri). Hence the use of Pad shah (lit. pati - master / shah - king). Master , Lord, ruler and King are given. Therefore King of Kings and Emperor i.e. rulers who commanded, conquered and enslaved others (colonization) imagining themselves to be rulers of the world or universe, such as Hiri-hito, Queen Elizabeth, Nadir Shah and Aurangzeb are not role models or rulers i like seeing Guru Gobind Singh associated with in the use of a European word. I thought Master was sufficient--still english but sufficient. Guru is even better.

The Guru himself refered to WaheGuru as ShahanShah=King of Kings or the real Emperor of the Universe even using Sacha Patshah zameen O Zamaan True Emperor of the Earth and Sky i thought the Guru had forbidden such titles being used for him. just semantics i guess. Allenwalla 05:24, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Interesting to learn that the Nihangs sometimes marry Hindus - conversation this page. An article on film images of Sikhs was looking doen on this being depicted by Bollywood-just Sikh and Hindu not Nihang particularly. Questions, Questions. Goodnight. Rabb Rakah. richard Bold text

Richard, It is forbidden to call all devotees "Guru" too. They called themselves DASS. Satgur Gobind Singh said, Aadi Ant Ekey Avtara, Soyi GUru Samjheyo Hamara, i.e He have only One Guru not only this Satgur Nanak said ""Shabad Guru Surat Dhun Chela"" when asked to him by Yogis that who is your Guru. "Gyan Guru Atam Updesho". Well Human as Guru is not concept of Sikh Religion.
Still Sikhs do call 10 Gurus( or 36 Gurus), because they think that whole knowledge is given by them(as body) but in actual, it is DHUR KI BAANI. Bani Guru, Guru Hai Baani
Patishah word comes in Japu Bani in which there is written "JIS NO BAKHSHEY SIFAT SALAH, NANAK PAATSHAHI PAATSHAH", Jis here is used for Soul.
Davein padshah Da Granth/Dasam Granth is name given by Khalsa to collection of all Compositions of Satgur Gobind Singh. (HarpreetSingh 06:22, 26 June 2012 (CDT))

Truth about Dasam Granth

--Keerat 04:18, 20 September 2011 (EDT)

--Keerat 09:07, 25 June 2012 (CDT)