User talk:Allenwalla: Difference between revisions

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Archive

Bhai sahib ji,

Archive has been done. I can't remember seeing any specific introduction for this process but I will try and look these up for future use. For the time being it was easier just to do the archive as it only takes a minute or so. Rab rakha. Hari Singh^talk 12:39, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

Why Sikhs do not worship Idols

Because Idols itself is non living thing, so worshipping idol is Fake worship. If one have to worship by heart why to use idols? Even Guru Granth Sahib is not worshipped in Sikhism, because it's Holy BOOK, books are not wrshipped. It is called GUru because it contains wisdom which when enters in person then becomes Shabad Guru. Thousands bow before granth for it's wisdom but it is not guru for thousands, because only few have understand them. They are blindly calling it Guru, because we call it guru.

So it's not worshipped but admired or respect. If we will start worship BOOK(Granth) then again we are fools because again it is non living thing. Tomarrow i will start worshipping my Bed.

So Main concept is god resides in GHAT GHAT not KANN KANN. It resides in heart. We could get it from heart not by these worldly things.

Now if someone make Picture of guru, it's just imagination, but sir most of the people are stick to pictures, may be you do not know as you are in England. but i have seen in india and heard in most of countries.

Worshiping picture is again equal to worship idols. If god resides in picture then i have three picture of nanak at myu home and I HAVE GOD.YIPPIE!!!!!

Now i feel you understand why i created that article.

Now why i am merging it, because it's not so long topic, so better to make a section in idol worship and put this data there.

do you know

Ravidas aginst idol worship - kabir panthis make his idols Kabir against idol worship - ERavidasis make his idols and worship it Nanak Against idol worship - Sindhi people make idols of nanak

isn't it funny? it's cultural impact.

Now in many gurdwaras photos are worshipped like anything.

GURU STANDING in photo and people is touching feet of photo. they doi not understand it's imagination of someone, you should admire art not to treat it like god.

that was my point. any criticism pls tell.

Hor sunao how are you howz life going?

(Lucky 11:57, 30 July 2010 (UTC))

Idol worship

Bhai Sahib ji,

Many thanks for the message which I got from the page history.

Unfortunately, this is an issue which has very strong undercurrents for many Sikhs, especially ones with close ties with India. I believe the main reason for this is the fact that they have very strong hate for the way that Hindus carry out their devotion to idols, statues and pictures of their gods. Also, many consider Hindus as "their rivals" and so to rubbish their practises gives them much satisfaction and pride!

For most Sikhs who do not have links with India, this is a non-issue - they know that a picture of a Guru, for example, has no resemblance to reality and is just an artists representation and a way to better focus on the personality. Further "worshipping" the picture, or the book or even the word will produce no merit in the person; the only thing that will elevate the person is to listen to the words of the wise people and re-focus your living in tune with their wisdom - only that will make you a better person.

Idol worshipping is a trait historically of the people of India and in many villages, this tradition still continues to this day. Many will "decorate" and "kiss" pictures of their gods and do "arti" with incense and candle (or diva) and truly believe that this dedication will please their god!

That is the ritual that is criticised in Gurbani. Does this help? Hari Singh^talk 19:05, 30 July 2010 (EDT)

Ghat Ghat Kann Kann

• KANN KANN (PRESENT IN EVERY PARTICLE => NON LIVING + LIVING)
• GHAT GHAT (PRESENT IN HEART => LIVING)

Gurbani do not believe in Kann Kann philosphy, but GHAT GHAT philosphy. God resides in heart not in particles. KANN KANN Philosphy people are Grave Worshipper, Idolators, etc.
Ghat GHat philosphy are finders, true seekers.

Like Hari SIngh told no use of idol worship, because God is present in beings not My COmputer or my bed or in my glass.

that is difference i hope clear.

Ya i have seen Rocket Singh, it's movie on marketing. shown sikh way of life and movie is about making money in ethics, but you must find bit distortion of ethics on rocket singh side too....isn't it? (Lucky 22:13, 30 July 2010 (EDT))

Rapid transport, Amritsar & RRR...ocket Singh

Bhai sahib ji,

Thanks for adding this article; I will see if we can get adequate material for a feature or just put this as a news article.

Also grateful for your comments on Rocket Singh - I have not seen this movie but now, having read your comments will try and see this film even if it is on DVD. Raab rakha, Hari Singh^talk 19:37, 1 August 2010 (EDT)

Pahul & Kutha

Bhai Sahib ji,

Many thanks for your detailed messages - I have made some of the changes suggested on both articles and "locked" the pahul article for new and unregistered users as there was a lot of nonsense added by some of the new users.

Bhai sahib, I find it annoying when the years from 1699 to 1708 (about 9 years) become more important than the whole of the period from 1469 to 1699 (about 230 years) when the Khalsa Sikh did not exist. Further, some of these Sikhs are completely focused on these rituals and have no idea of the words preached by the holy Granth.

Unfortunately, I see a lot of " detail refining" of the old customs and oral tradition started by Guru Gobind Singh especially in 1699 with the creation of the Khalsa. Each of the elements is refined to an infinite degree - The Guru stipulated just five kakkars in very basic terms - Kesh, kanga, kirpan, kaccha and kara - no material was stipulated; no details were given. Now we have many cults who have added others items to these five - Some factions who go further and stipulate materials, dimensions and other additions. More attention is drawn to these customs than to the text and message of the holy Granth.

If these were to be complex requirements and more important than the "shabad", the Guru would have mentioned them in written form! As there is no direct written record of these items, I can only deduce that these are items that are simple and left to the imagination of the individual or the local communities. The whole of the Amrit ceremony and its requirement is left by the Guru as a "oral tradition" passed from one generation to the next - surely that speaks volumes - If it was intended to be a "strict and rigid routine" or a ceremony where detailed and complex actions were paramount, then I believe that the Guru would have at Nanded sat down and prepared a comprehensive written record.

Therefore, Bhai sahib, it is my belief that the Amrit Sanchar ceremony is by design a simple ceremony and the requirements for the Khalsa are easy to memorise and few in number; further apart from these simple requirements, detailed refinement is not necessary or useful for the betterment of the person.

Pahul: I have made the change to the four Kurehata - Regarding meat - I have left the two options as this is how this works in real life - Some jathas ban meat altogether while some ban halal only; I have reverted to an older version of the article but I think I have captured all your amendments but removed referenced to steel or iron or even wooden for the Kanga as suggested by you; removed the unnecessary references to metals for the kara and kirpan. I could not find the reference to "iron" bowl but again this is not necessary and I will spent more time on this article soon and try and remove these unnecessary "refinements" to the original requirements.

I have also, upon your observation, removed the reference to eye brows and facial hair as I believe that this is just a further unnecessary "refinement" by others. The Guru said "Kesh" which is a reference to the longer hair found on the scalp of most of us and the long hair (beard and moustache) found on the faces of most men. I do not believe that the removal of facial hair by women has any bearing on the word "Kesh".

Bhai sahib, all is well with the my family; many thanks for asking. I too hope and wish that you together with all who are near and dear to you are keeping in good health and positive spirits. I have no news about the floods intruding historical Gurdwaras; having spoken to my friend who has many relations in Pakistan, I believe that the flood are confined to the north and the shrines may have escaped the floods. I have watched the news video with great sadness as huge devastation has taken place. May the Almighty have mercy!

I think the restriction on the Panj Pyare is wrong - women can and do now take part as the five; the same applied to doing sewa at the Akal takhat. When we were in India a few years ago, my niece was allowed to take part without any problems. The monthly cycle in woman is a natural occurrence and cannot be deemed "unclean"; without it none of us would have been born!

Sorry about the long length of the reply. Keep well, Raab Rakha, Hari Singh^talk 19:09, 4 August 2010 (EDT)

Siri Guru Granth Sahib and Barbarism

Bhai Sahib ji,

Siri Guru Granth Sahib: What is the Siri Guru Granth Sahib?

"The Siri Guru Granth Sahib is the living Guru (spiritual teacher) of the Sikhs. Though the Sikhs bow to the Granth (Book), according it the same respect once paid to their living human Gurus, the Sikhs do not 'worship' the Siri Guru Granth Sahib for that is forbidden – Only the One Almighty God is to be worshipped. Guru Nanak's followers are Sikhs (seekers of truth). Guru Nanak taught them to bow only before God, and to link themselves to the Guru, the Light of Truth, who lives always in direct consciousness of God, experiencing no separation.

It is 1430 pages of words in a permutation and combination to stimulate the hypothalamus, giving intuition to mother of knowledge, giving us courage, strength of our divine father, and to give us the excellence to be a lion among the beasts and to be the princess of Kaurs."

Bhai sahib, that is excellent and totally correct as far as Gurmat is concerned - Unfortunately, many do not understand the depth of Gurbani and hence do 'worship' the Granth overlooking the word and the message in the Shabad which is the essence of the Guru - Please go ahead and add this freely as it is precise message of the Gurus.

Why Sikhs turn away ...i have wondered why several Sikhs I have written to on this site, who first offered help, wanted nothing to do with me after learning i was not a Sikh, an Indian or perhaps just because i am a westerner?

Bhai sahib, this is probably to do with lack of confidence in themselves - Many Sikhs have only very basic knowledge of Sikhi and therefore probably feel out of place trying to discuss the finer points especially to a westerner who is also "foreign" to them. The strangeness in the experience is probably too much for them to handle - that's my guess!

Brutality in Afghanistan

Very touching story of the little girl with the missing nose & ears and the killing of 10 care workers - No words can explain how we as humans can behave in such degrading manner; only the Lord can rectify the minds of the people who carry out such inhumane acts and tread on these repulsive ways; may He give us the strength to overcome such barbaric behaviour - acts worse than performed by animals.

Also on the other hand I thanks God that he has given us the technology and compassion to mend some of these scars; unfortunately the lost ones cannot be replaced by us but I am sure they will find peace despite their demise here; the suffering of the relatives will continue for a long time.

Perhaps, it is for these "over-burdening of sins" that disasters such as in Pakistan now and previous earthquakes and tsunamis befall some of the regions where there is no adherence to righteousness. It reminds me of the quote in the Dasam Granth Ath_Nihkalanki_Chobisvon_Avtar_Kathan#Page_1151 - The earth agonised by sin trembled and began to weep .... Overburdened by the weight of sin, it lamented in various ways before the Lord.137. The Lord instructed the earth and saw her off; He reflected on the measure to be adopted for finishing the burden of the earth.138.

May the Lord bless us so that these evils are not witnessed by us any more, Raab rakha, Hari Singh^talk 13:05, 7 August 2010 (EDT)

Sandhanvalia or Sandharivalia ie N or RI?

Bhai sahib ji,

Thanks for an interesting question - Sandhanvalia or Sandharivalia. I am not too familiar with this family - it seem from the content of the page HERE that perhaps it should be "RI" but the name in the title has a "N".

I will need to see if I can read some old books online about this family - This is a good place to try. I will revert back to you soon ....I hope! Raab Rakha, Hari Singh^talk 11:03, 12 August 2010 (EDT)

Bhai sahib ji,

Could also be Sindhianwala sardars? see this as well! Will update soon. Regards, Hari Singh^talk 11:54, 12 August 2010 (EDT)

bit of news and Opinion requested

Bhai sahib ji

Many thanks for the links; particularly the one to "Delhi students find main belt asteroid" which is both interesting and surprising - I thought that most asteroids had already been charted as this arm of science has been under-way for many hundreds of years! So it is amazing to find that students in India, of all places, have "discovered" this "new" extra-terrestrial object.

The floods in Pakistan highlight the destructive power of nature and God who most people do not recognise! It shows how quickly things can change from "normal" to perilous - almost at a blink of the eye. Let's hope that things will settle down and some normality will return to the region. If the estimates of the impact of this setback are true than it appears that this tragedy will put Pakistan back 10 years - a reality that they can ill afford considering the difficulties that they have been suffering under the present government.

Regarding the "new art" depictions of both Mughals and Sikhs, I think some of these "younger" artists have let their imaginations go into overdrive; I cannot imagine that in 16-18th century India you would find anything resembling what can be seen in these photos. Also, as you say, the copyright efforts inserted by the artists are too intrusive for comfort. Let us monitor the position as I do not think there is too many more of these images available and we will step in if this gets out of hand. I think your reaction is perfectly understandable and I agree with your stand; many thanks for highlighting this dangerous trend. Raab rakha, Hari Singh^talk 12:06, 15 August 2010 (EDT)

Question

Bhai sahib ji,

Have part replied on the Talk:Gurudwara Amb Sahib page; hope this explains a few of the confusing references.

Sorry, I failed to address one of your main concerns; the concept of copyright when applied to Sikh art or Sikh history in general is a little bit different from the western stand point; traditional, the promotion of Sikh values is considered more important than copyright and so in the past has always been subservient in this respect. Although some movement has taken place in this respect in recent times, I believe that the modern trend has been very slow in changing attitudes in the public domain.

So far, I have never come across any copyright legal action in a court of law connected with Sikh art or historical accounts; however, this may change! I do not believe that the artist would be concerned as long as his "copyright notice" is not unduly tampered with. If this notice is tampered with then they would get concerned.

So the notice is there to "advertise" the artist and so has to remain if we wish to use the image. I believe that if the notice is small then this is acceptable otherwise we should not use the image here at SikhiWiki. I believe that the artists are aware and actively desire that their art is displayed but with the "notice" clearly visible. They would not release an image without the notice as this would then be displayed everywhere without any reference to them - they would not want to take legal action in this field of Sikhi and the domain of the Guru where one is supposed to be unselfish, forgiving and generous!

The need to make the characters more muscular (as if on steroids) than real life is a modern trend and does not reflect reality no matter what the diet of these 17th century humans!

Gyani Labh Singh Bhikhi article - Yes, the removal of the photos is warranted having flicked through the series of photos - thanks for your keen observation! Kind regards, Hari Singh^talk 20:08, 16 August 2010 (EDT)

Talwar

Bhai sahib ji,

Fascinating website showing the extreme skills required to make these excellent weapons; did not know steel was discovered in India; wonderful products produced by a talented craftsman. Many thanks for an enlightening experience. Raab rakha, Hari Singh^talk 16:39, 18 August 2010 (EDT)

Mysticism, History of Sikh Gurus Retold, etc

Bhai Sahib ji,

Sorry Bhai Sahib ji, I have read all your interesting messages, taken fair bit of action on some of the issues raised but unfortunately have been running out to time for the last few nights until today. I apologise for the late reply.

I read the message regarding Mysticism and then went to Wikipedia and did some amendments there; I don't know if those changes will "stick" as the users at Wikipedia have a eager tendency to overwrite things that they are not familiar with themselves.

I did some research on the concept of "mysticism" which I had not come across before and I think that although this word has not been used before in connection with Sikhi on this site, it is a concept that applies to Sikhi. As I have not encountered this word myself, I will need to become more acquainted with this concept myself first before more can be written by me. We also need to see if others have written about mysticism and Sikhi; if they have then that can be used as a starting position.

I unable at present to address your question in this respect and will revert to this topic in a few weeks.

The matter relating to Sikhi and yoga invokes bitterness in traditional Punjabi Sikhs who want to believe that Sikhi has no connection with Yoga. However, when one reads the SGGS, it is clear that the Gurus were familiar with Yoga and supporters of this form of art/skill/therapy.

History of Sikh Gurus Retold: 1469-1606 C.E By Surjit Singh Gandhi Many thanks for the link to this book; indeed it is a valuable resource. I will spent some time reading this book in the next week or so.

Your wife's video recommendation about how Muslims are treated in America was a real eye opener and a very touching encounter towards the end of the video. It is amazing how many "ordinary" people can hold such noble values despite constant media distortions of this minority community. An excellent recommendation; many thanks again. Sorry again and Raab Rakha, Hari Singh^talk 18:45, 24 August 2010 (EDT)

Hacienda de Guru Ram Das‎ and Canada, from a story in al jazeera

Bhai sahib ji,

Many thanks as always for your valuable input and highly relevant messages; I am most grateful to you. I have looked at the links that you have referred to and I think the 3HO one is correct but the second one for the Sikh Dharma should be just the one link, the second one for this option - giving two options of 3ho or www.sikhdharmaworldwide.org, in my opinion is not necessary - just have one link for each one - so my suggestion would be that the line should read: To learn more about our lifestyle at HGRD, please visit 3HO Foundation [1] and Sikh Dharm [2].

Canada & immigration: Historically there has always been resistance by the Americas to immigration from Asia; however, I think this has slowly changed and perhaps now a reasonable balance has been achieved. Obviously, it is important for the "new" nations to have a seperate identity and this takes time and careful policies. If too much immigration comes from one country, it is possible for the new identity not to develop.

When too many people from one country are allowed to come to these nations in a short period of time, there is a strong possibility of very strong links to the "father nations" remaining and hence the likelihood of the development of "freedom fighter" whose mindset remains fixed to the "father nation". Under these conditions, very little or no real development of the new country can take place. It is difficult balance to achieve and so I agree that the slow acceptance of small numbers from the "old world" is necessary to ensure stability and peace in these countries and for the slow assimilation of the ethnic population into the mainstream community.

Canada has faced a difficult time with extremist from Punjab, which I know about and extremists other nations as you mention. So I believe that in theory this apprehension in Canada and other western nations is understandable. However, this policy can also, very easily be used as a cover to discriminate and practise ethnic favouritism (a non destructive and softer version of "ethnic cleansing").

Some of these countries, due to large numbers of ethnic populations, do provide safe havens for development of extremist elements as you rightly say; the so-called Khalistan phenomenon is a classical example. I am not against the development of positive political elements in these countries, even if these are associated with the "father nations" but the promotion of violence and the raising of funds to promote violence in these nations is not acceptable.

One hopes that the politicians of these "newer" nations will be aware of these tendencies and take heed from the warnings given by PM of India and others about the potential "time bomb" if these elements are not closely and actively monitored and vigorously restrained.

Bhai sahib ji, Raab rakha, may the Lord's love dwell always in your heart, Hari Singh^talk 09:52, 28 August 2010 (EDT)

Sajid KHan apologized

As you know Sajid KHan apologized for his comments against sikh martial act and he agreed that he did not know much about this tradition.

In second round bir khalsa group again performed and judges commented it brilliant.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TNA-kYIxGoM

(Lucky 09:00, 29 August 2010 (EDT))

Gatka round 2 and Nourishing Souls

Bhai sahib,

Many thank for sharing such a delightful photo presentation; indeed a fitting end to a beautiful weekend when the true message of the Gurus is reflected across the different sections of the globe.

With His blessings, may the beautiful glory of the Almighty Lord prevail everywhere. I hope that many hearts will have been touched with these pieces of media presentation and their lives will move towards a more spiritual and meaningful existence with focus on a more merciful, humble and sharing life; always remembering the Supreme power. Sada Raab rakha, Hari Singh^talk 08:29, 30 August 2010 (EDT)

PS: Have added these links to the article here : http://www.sikhiwiki.org/index.php/Harmandar_Sahib#External_Links

Amritsar

Bhai sahib ji,

I was working on this article but have moved on to the five sarovars; so please carry on if you need to. I will reply in greater depth a little later as I am still in the middle of several edits on the sarovars articles with picture uploads, etc. So please excuse me for a little while. Bye just for now, Hari Singh^talk 19:53, 3 September 2010 (EDT)

Sorry. No, it wasn't a serious problem for me working on the article although as I did not realise, it did give me a "edit conflict notice". On the contrary, I hope I did not cause you too much frustration as I know the system does not allow simultaneous editing. It would be good if the system gave a warning of simultaneous editing when the second person tried to press the edit button! I am sorry, I seem to have caused you some distress.

Thanks for asking; all is well here and I hope that you and your family are also keeping well; I hope you getting a good night's sleep without any disturbance these days. I remember that you mentioned previously that you had been unable to rest properly; I hope that problem has gone away.

I do not know what the word "inhead" means but as you say it appears in a few articles on this site; I think it must be a slang used in India to signify a person who has cut hair or a 'mona' as you say. Mona means any person who has short cut hair. I agree with your 'Singh Sahib' as I have never heard of this word as well!

The word does not have any Punjabi meaning nor can I find it on Google when searched on its own but when searched together with the word 'Sikh' it direct the search to the page Mona Sikh which explains that this is a shorthand used in Punjab for 'mona' or 'rowdha' which means 'bald' but is also used to refer to a mona. Rabh Rakha, Hari Singh^talk 22:10, 3 September 2010 (EDT)

God Sharp Teeth and God is Formless

Sir, God does not have Sharp Teeth. When Gurus have to explain attributes of God then at many places in Guru Granth Sahib Gurus made form of Formless God. I Think you have not read what i am trying to convey.

In Teeth Matter, Guru Gobind Singh is explaining a Destroyer form of Formless God, and he used word Teeth under which he have taken away many for example Earthquake at Haiti(The Dangerous form of Hukam), Tsunami(Dangerous form of Hukam) etc etc and etc. So Their Guru Gobind SIngh have also mentioned that he is FORMLESS and very clearly mentioned before Bani but Some Anti Gobind SIngh's Bani elements use to quote few lines from inside instead of reading whole content and say before people that GOD is formless and GOd mentioned in Dasam Granth have FORM.

What i have done is i have taken various examples from Guru Granth Sahib that this is poetic impression which is used in Guru Granth Shaib too to explain attributes of God, and remember these attributes are also formless.

The Teeth mentioned are also formless and The Mace mentioned in God's Hand in Gurbani is also formless.

Though words are remporal so it makes confusion.

Basically i am trying to prove that they are using Wrong methodology of condenming and which is not at all perfect and not to believe at all.

(Editor 19:13, 9 September 2010 (EDT))