Talk:Modern Sikh Girls

thinking!!!......

Some comments by Sikh girls?

• Misuse of equality? See, this is what frustrates me also. As a Sikh girl in the UK, I'm still in school and im at the stage where I question everything....

If Sikh men...can drink...why cant Sikh women? Sikhs are the most notorious drinkers!! its a fact!! If a man drinks so can his wife. If the man doesn't want his wife to drink he should stop also.

• and a girl can do what a guy can do! Sikh girls are the daughters of Dhan Dhan Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj, they too have the spirit of a lion within them. people should not forget that! I hate being told that i cant do something when the implication of the reasoning is that im a girl, and if i was a boy i would be allowed to!

• the day sikh boys learn to treat women with more respect, and show some admiration towards girls who conduct themselves with dignity is the day sikh girls wont feel the need to expose themselves.

It works both ways!

Comment by saroja

I am a canadian woman from British Columbia. My father is Sikh, my mom Jewish, my grandparents Janist and hindu in one set, and Russian Orthadox and Jew in the other. My family has a fair bit of religious diversity from wiccans and catholics to atheists. Many years ago I did study sociology and psychology. I was raised neither Sikh nor Jewish in the typical north american style of go to church for people getting married or funerals which often they had at christian churches despite their views because at the time there weren't always temples or churches for their own beliefs around.

I admit I am new to Sikhism as I didn't get much exposure as a child. But by what I have read if they believe in equality what is the problem? Men go topless sometimes or showing their chest. I have no intention of doing that though a woman in a city I used to live in challenged it and won the right in Maple Ridge, BC, Canada. I see nothing wrong with us wearing gender neutral cloths. I have seen some women with turbans though it is not so common here. I have seen men wear kilts and other things North American's would call "dresses" which are historical mens traditional clothing. Most of us I think are aware of how we dress. If I wear a sari it doesn't mean I'm being a seductress, etc. To me I am just wearing a sari and I like the way it looks. Its others jumping to conclusions perhaps because they aren't used to the style of dress. Is wearing a two piece bathing suit making you a person asking for trouble? I don't think so some men wear speedo's. Frankly I find those vulgar as they leave nothing tot he imagination and just don't look so great. But that is my personal opinion and I'm not going to be mean to a man for it. As for me I wear a one peice or a tank ini which is a tank that covers your mid section and a skirt like bottom. Its what I like and I know I don't look good in a bikini. When we came into this world we were nude with no regard for clothing unless we felt cold. Because it is cold out we are likely to leave this world clothed. Children are a clean slate without judgment which they form with life experience and mentoring. It isn't until we stigmatize the human body and sexualize it that it takes on that form. If we view it simply as a body that comes in all shapes and sizes, that allows us to reproduce, create, survive, etc then we do not see it as evil. It is man passing judgement that gives us conclusions that it is bad to be naked. Most of us don't walk around naked because it is too cold for it and impracticable. You can get hurt if your exposed so we cover ourselves for practical reasons. Greek statues are a homage to the state we enter into this world. Innocent and unassuming until we apply our own prejudices to it. For example do you view a doctor as lewd for asking you to expose your body so they can assess a problem? No they are not sexualizing you they are being matter of fact. So next time you look at man or woman and come to your conclusions ask if you are being objective and rational.

As we all know some sikh's cut their hair and some don't. Oh wait that is wrong. Lets be honest you all do even those that wear turbans and long braids. You trim your hair. My aunt grew her hair to about 2 inches above her ankle and her daughter let it go all the way to her bottom. It is indeed long but you do cut it. You say it needs to be trim or kept in a state where it wont become dirty by hitting the floor, etc. So before any of you get nasty on the hair issue remember that. Also the prohibition specifically said cutting hair. From what I have read it doesn't translate as anything besides cutting. This means waxing, electrolosis, and threading is no problem because it pulls hair. Now if you say it comments we should not kill hair. Hair is already dead so pulling it is not killing it. Hair is dead skin cells so is it alive or dead? Since this site wont let me enter the link. Search on Google for "Is hair dead skin" then look at the answers. I had originally pasted a link to Yahoo Answers which does clearly state hair is dead skin cells.

Aggressive stance? I have seen nothing that indicates that women aren't supposed to carry a dagger, and protect family. I don't think men or women are aggressive normally unless provoked or giving the illusion of it by playing around, joking, or acting. If you stand up to someone it isn't aggressive. You might call it that but it doesn't make it true. Doesn't it say we are to defend ourselves and our families?

Now for drinking and drugs. I thought in general it says we should do neither. So if men are drinking as someone mentions they are already violating the rules. As someone points out on one spot I read. Sikh's do not have sin only betterment. So perhaps they should try dealcholized products. I've tried fake wine and cider it is quite good but no alcohol. I don't smoke but I do have incense that I use occasionally(still makes smoke that is inhaled).

I agree that it says we are equal so why can't someone do something based on ability not on gender? Of course men can not carry and have babies in the same sense. But there is no reason why a man can not be a stay at home dad or have babies through adoption or fostercare. There is no reason a woman can't do a construction job or any of the old stereotyped male jobs. I think "you can't do that because your a girl" is a statement that should be a thing of the past. So is the comment that "boys don't do that you must be gay or something" is also out of line and just rude. We are not a sexual orientation or a gender. We are people. Some of us have a gift to offer in some area to our fellow man or nature. Telling them they can't do that due to gender or orientation is a very sad thing. What doe we all loose because of peoples discouragement?

As for respect it goes both ways. One of my half sisters and my mom are pretty awful in how they treat men. They view them as weak and as items to be used. I'm ashamed of them and their behavior. I have a half brother who is a misogynistic jerk. I similarly am ashamed of his attitude problem. - Saroja

Sayth Nanak!! --1499AD

'nanak bh.dyy bahra yyko saachaa soy.....'....But for 'TRUTH god' She encompasses & is the source of all Males (mc...s)'.

Dear 'mc..'s! Please do not push them there

Want them closer;...

• go close to them as Karta Purukhs.
• Do not brainwash them to mingle with you as boys ( In that case you for sure do not deserve the association of a lady. Join a Men's secreat club instead)

Westener may please intospect....

• chunk of of brain washed american feminin beauties, whome Nanak considers an iota bit below TRUTH (and above 'mc....s' are struggling hard to become males' for realising Males' favours. They sacrifice their faminin character, grace & Nanak's favour. For 'mc...s' sake They shed & gift their hair as well as money to 'mc...s'.

• As mismerised mummies moulded by 'mc..s dirty ways, they sit before the butchers to kill their esteem, self, spirit, faminity, living 'TRUTH god' given inseprable living organs. TRUE Sikh look alikes 'mc..s' are evolving as their bussiness parteners to earn Fast & easy money...
  • by providing Sevices of Barbars (barbarian Services) to the ladies to convert them into males so that they can become members of the Secreat Male' domain.
  • realise mony by selling the choped off lump of hair to fashion industry.
  • Fashion Industry, with an 'mc...s' as proprieters, churns out fashon products & sells them to the same mismerised ladies to realise more money from their very purses (made up of their own hair)
  • Fasion Changes; left over Male hair on faminine 'round looking objects' have to be bathed, combed & maintained. Fashion Industry is ready to launch...
  • New Shampoos
  • New Hair creams.
  • New hair removing creams
  • New Combs
  • New hair drying machines
  • New Scents
  • New Hair dyes
  • New...
  • New...

SIMCOS & Hair Fixers for 'Mod Karta Purukhs who quoat SatGurBani to Support their being Creative bussinessmen ('mc...s'..sic!!!)Senior Sikhnies (Sikh look alike ladies) do social sevice & in the background run barbarian bussiness. All these are Shady deals. Suchajee look alikes creat Kuchajees thus sayth SatGurBani... in Suchajee & Kuchajee

I personally am irritated by the shampoo and hair product indusries. Oh I on rare occasion use hair spray but I have curly hair. I am part african, jewish, east indian, and white. I am an albino so I have pale pink skin and red-blond hair. I would like to find "original" in shampoos. I don't like bee's going after the scent and I have allergies. Because of curly hair issues I do use smoothing shampoos. But my curly hair is also why growing it very long is a problem. I have tried to grow it down and it became an utter mess.

As for haircuts. Even if you grow your hair long and wear a turban(women can wear them too). You still trim your hair for health and cleanliness. My aunt grew her hair to just above her ankle and my cousin to her bottom. They trimmed their hair so it wouldn't drag and so it wouldn't have bad health from split ends, etc. Men with long hair and turbans did admit to me they trim their hair for the same reason. If a man can grow his hair long and so can a woman. Why demonize those with short to medium hair? Why accuse a woman of trying to look like a man if indeed a man with a turban often has the same long hair which his wife helps him wrap in the morning? Again as I've said women are aloud to wear turbans and they aren't doing it to be like a man. Women in history have had traditionally longer hair so is the man with longer hair trying to look like a woman? Outside of the requirement to not "cut hair" which all clearly do or it would eventually surpass them in length/height or cause undo burden to their necks weight wise. We are told to respect equality and not to disrespect women. As a fact somewhere here it quotes the exact justification for why you shouldn't disrespect a woman. Yet some of your comments clearly are disrespecting and not objective but judgemental based on your own personal bias. You obviously like long hair and have a role in your head you feel women play. Now compare it to the teachings and the core beliefs on respect and equality.

We are not brainwashed to mingle with boys. Where I live in British Columbia Canada we are not separated/segregated or treated with inequity. They used to separate gym classes and then stopped. Boys take sewing class and cooking class along with girls. Girls can take wood/metal shop class and mechanics along side boys. We take gym class and other classes together. We are not graded by gender, religion, or race we are graded on performance. Perhaps you should go reread a few things and confront your own internal bigotry or talk to a council. Because I don't know where you are getting these views that sanction inequality and segregation.

Now as to the mesmorized ladies. I was a professional writer and designed a whole bunch of things. I was around people and their bling as a child and "industry" people. I and my family don't cake on the makeup, we don't wonder around in pasties and g-strings or overly exposing clothing, we don't flaunt wealth or appearance of it, etc. I often and so do most of my cousins rarely wear makeup. I wear mostly comfortable practicle clothing unless I need to dress up for something special and when I do dress up I wear something appropriate to the situation. While I like to dance I am not a club bunny. I don't over expose myself, drink, smoke, or throw myself at people using intoxication as a justification(and I don't throw myself at them even without intoxication). Your comments are probably offensive to many people and stereotyping. I have seen indian males wearing makeup and wearing cloths that give them some exposure and I have some some of them throwing themselves at girls. Most don't. Most women don't act that way either.

Killing Hair

This short section requires expansion.

Main article: Uncut Hairs

"Kesh" is one of the five kakkars of sikhism.

• A TRUE being is the way TRUE being Makes Shim.
• Any one distorting that profile is obeying 'TRUTH god's' commandment.
• SHe does so because SatGurBani ordains Shim to do so.
• If SatGur ordains him that way TRUE Sikhs will extend all the help to Shim to obey TRUTH god's Commandments.
• TRUE Sikhs will help him by TRUTHfully obeying the Hukum & leaving Shim alone.....Sakat sang na keejeeyy....

paap punn dou eyyk smaan.....

• there is only one sin in SatGurMat....not folloing this Path & Panth.
• Urge followed by act, to distort the TRUE swaroop of Satgur's) IDOL (Human being) is gifted by Satgur to Shim.....amal gulyla kood da ditta dyvn haar....
• A TRUE Sikh will not waste his considerations & sympathies on those who are sedated by SatGur Shimself. terms like 'sinner' & 'Patit' grace him in the society of TRUTHfull beings.
• TRUE Sikhs will always be seen in bliss & TRUE to Their SatGur...''Nanak vigsyy byprvaah....I care too hoots for those who have been ordained & condemed by my SatGur
• TRUE Sikhs will worry about nothing but for being TRUE to ....
  • NAAM JAAN...Amrit Vyly
  • NAAM DAAN...Din vich
  • NAAM ISHNAAN...swas swas

Jo Gajj ky Bolyy.... ...................kood raja kood praja kood sb s.saar ....so Nihaal!!..... WaKaFa

SatGur fateh!!

----Mutia 13:37, 13 August 2007 (EDT)

Main article: Human Hair

I'm not trying to be rude or disregard the encouragement to keep hair longer. I in fact like long hair. But growing mine very long has repeatedly proven problematic due to the fact my hair is not straight. Hair is dead skin cells and you can find this explained by using google or Yahoo Answers. I have seen men grow their hair long and wear turbans. Women too. However some of those same men shave their face. I thought it said specifically don't "cut" hair. So other methods aren't necessarily frowned on. Some hair removal where it takes the follicle doesn't kill the hair you give it as donation to those with hair problems who can not grow hair on their head right. So you are not killing hair you are donating to someone who has lost theirs.(This is a practice in some canadian places as far as hair transplants go) I have also seen someone say "sin" doesn't exist in Sikhism only the opportuntity to better ourselves. So why stigmatize and be nasty? You have your path through sikhism and they must find their own. You are not the same person so it is understandable it will not be an identical life experience or path. Aren't we also taught to be tolerant? So in other words offer your opinion if asked as your personal opinion based on your interpretation but otherwise respect their rights to not agree with you or to be whom they are. Lest they disrespect you and this start a vicious escalating cycle.- Saroja

Dressup

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• Today many Sikhs feel helpless to see the dressing sense of modern Sikh girls.The growing tendency among the girls to show body contours is a unhealthy step in our Sikh society.In Sikhism indecent dresses are not allowed. user:Sarbjeet 1313me

• In gurdwars these girls comes wearing Bharkilaey clothes. My Grandmom Says "Ah Zamana A Gaya, Waheguru Waheguru". Why these humans not take care of their clothes yaar you are sitting in congregation. Like in a company u have professional style including ur sense, Clothing, Speaking style. Why dont these girls think about the professionalism of gurudwara. Simple Dress UP, Speaking Waheguru, Sitting Below with posture and with decent style. user:hpt_lucky

Granted I do not live in India and live in Canada. But from what I have seen of traditional clothing if you do not think that shows some curves you are wrong. Sari's and other clothing can show some. I don't see anything wrong with it. I have seen men wearing cloths that exposes their chest or accentuates their hips and shoulders. It doesn't mean they are being indescreet. You can dress tactfully and without over exposing yourself and still have some curves. If you have a problem where you look at someone and immediately sexualize them that is you having some sort of sad problem in how your percieve others. Maybe you should ask why you are so easily interpreting things that way. I look at a person and I see a person. If they were in a thong and wearing pasties I'd pause. Because in most places that is hugely inappropriate. We are born naked and we do not sexualize that. We die dressed simply because it is often cold or practicle to be clothed. We can be discreet and tasteful. I don't think showing a little bit of your shoulders or mid section is so bad. It isn't like you are walking around naked. Though again if you were and it were a nude beach that would be appropriate. We look at greek statues and comment on their skillful production we do not say "eeek it's nude cover it as it is offensive!" Did got not let us grow in the womb naked? Were we not born naked? Should we be ashamed of that? I think we should be ashamed of our need to sexualize it and stigmatize it. Though I do heavily believe in being tactful and dressing appropriately for situations. That is something that can be taught to children of both genders. How often in the summer heat do you see topless boys in pants or shorts running down roads playing ball? Of course a girl will wear a top. Of course if both were expecting family they would both dress more appropriate. I have been dead. God didn't hate me for my hair, clothing, gender, or religion. I'm obviously alive right now so there was a reason why I needed to be alive.(I came too in the morgue after they had already done my death paperwork and before an autopsy) - Saroja

Drugs and Intoxicants

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Lustful

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Today girl attract towards opposite sex easily and when she got raped then she knows what she did. I have many examples here. Boys are always lusty but today a Girl is also Lusty of nature. She makes herself attractive to attract others.

What Guru Says Ranna Hoyian Bodhiann, Pursh Hoyae Siyaar

user:hpt_lucky Today due to the lot of exposure of sex on TV there is a negative impact on our younger generation .Not only Sikh girls but non Sikh girls are falling prey to such lustful desires. it is truth. Infactuation is there. We have many examples where Sikh girls are doing sex at the early age of 15-18 to fulfil their lustful desire.In Sikhism Sex is not prohibited but it ir allowed in the prescribed format of Married life with loyality. user:sarbjeet_1313me

Where to begin. I find you so offensive you have no idea. I was raped. My older half sister got her friends to rape me more than once. It wasn't because I was being lustful. I can be relatively conservative. One time she said it was because I was an albino(I pass for full white but I am not and she is white) and I was too good like Jesus Christ. Yes she is crazy and a satanist christian which I obviously don't like as she believes christian horror movie stuff is true/possible. I also was attacked for winning a talent show. I didn't dress revealing. I played Annie, danced Swan Lake, performed part of two Shakespear plays. The boys who hurt me then said I deserved it since they lost the contest and they hoped what they did would ruin my life.

Also what is this about boys are always lusty? Wow what a stereotype there too. I've known others that weren't. Frankly several of the girls I knew liked the conservative dressing, geek, who also played sports. The over the top flaunty and vain guys they could do without and the guys felt about the same towards the female population. Some people just aren't nice period though they may look good. Why settle for a nasty one? I'm sure they have thoughts on occasion but they don't really want to be with them because of how they behave. I dressed different in high school not to make guys want me. My half sister had so damaged me socially as did the other boys who caused me grief I was the last person many would give a second look to. I dressed to look good and for fun. I avoided the really short skirts as I'm shy in regards to letting my underwear possibly show. I avoided tops showing much cleavage. I didn't have much cleavage and it made that fact more embarassingly obvious plus I would rather have a boy talk to me and not my breasts. I think most girls are this way. How you react to them is your choice and your possibly conditioned response. It doesn't mean other girls act like that to them nor do other boys. - Saroja

"Kaur" Removal from Names

Kaur means "princess" and is a name that should used as the last name by female Sikhs. This custom was first introduced in 1699 by Guru Gobind Singh, the tenth Sikh Guru when he administered Amrit(baptism) to both males and female Sikhs. All female Sikhs were asked to use the name Kaur after their forename and males were to use the name Singh, meaning "lion". This custom further confirmed equality to both genders as was the tradition set by the founder of Sikhism, Guru Nanak. For a sikh born family kaur is automatically introduced to as a last name.

But today girls are removing kaur out from there names and put their surnames or clans instead of kaur. This tendency has mainly risen up in punjab.Kaur is of less reference to them then their surname. For eg :A jatt Sikh girl here lives whose proper name is Paravydeep Kaur Nijjar, but she likes her to call Paravydeep Nijjer. Sly a girl name Samia Kaur Arora call her Samia Arora. Where are their identity. This shows the discrimination as guru jee provide the name to all female not to discriminate on the basis of caste and they provide the name kaur, that every female is princess here but the sikh women do not accept this last name. Again Caste Discrimination, Patit Sikh concept generate. This is mostly seen in girls of Jatt and Khatri community. Latest news in Aug 2007 shows a girl hates 'Kaur' in her name, wanted certificate she is a Sikh. There are many examples like these.

Yahoo Chat(Ustaad SIngh & P. Kaur)

The following is a yahoo chat with a girl who calls herself kaur but what is kaur for her:-
Ustaad Jee: Aj Sikhs nu naam pichey Kaur ya Singh lagauna pasand nahin
Ustaad Jee: Amarpreet Johal, Harpreet Ghotra, Paravydeep Nijjer, Nobuddy likes Singh and Kaur today
Paree _The Sprite: my name is paravdeep kaur nijjar at skool
Ustaad Jee: To hell with Skool it means kaur is just for school
Paree _The Sprite: no for papers too
Paree _The Sprite: and for my passport
Ustaad Jee: Oh my god, what about your mind your heart?????
Ustaad Jee: Kitabee galan naa karo jee
Paree _The Sprite: oh ok
Paree _The Sprite: um yeah no1 adds singh and kaur
Ustaad Jee: Nijjer jyada pasand hai Kae Kaur????
Paree _The Sprite: well actully i like nijjar
Ustaad Jee: Lai aa gaye gall
Paree _The Sprite: becuz its my pind yaar
Paree _The Sprite: did u ever hear about nijjaran
Ustaad Jee: Pind nu laggey fahey pehlan Sikhi aaa. Ehda matleb Hobby da naam Amarpreet Singh Mohali. Hahah How Funny

The above discussion is short but it covers very important fact of sikhism. You guys are intelligent hope u must understand.

article is full of sexism, bachwardness, chauvinism

What idiots wrote this article. Spurning everything the Gurus taught and preached.

"women[...]kill their hair[...]and continue to call themselve sikh." so their are not sikh when they cut theit hair? So a sikh is a sikh because of his hair and beard? 5 k's makes a man a sikh? long hairs and decent clothes makes a woman a sikh woman? This article is stupidity in its higehest quality - like the guys who wrote it.

to the topic of drinking. When a woman wants to drink there is not anyone who has the right to judge about this - whether husband nor a sikh priest(yes i know that sikh priest should not exist in sikhism, but they does - its a fact)

why cant a sikh girl wear the things she like. Are we that retarded and backwarded? I dont hope so.

This and many other things and points of view are the reason that many girls AND boys in my environment (Austria, Vienna) do not wanted to be reffered as sikhs anymore. I think this is also a growing movement in UK and openminded societies in India. Are we muselmans that we have to opress women? Where is the different now? Gobind Singh and his ancestors where fighting againt opressings by the mughals and others. And now we are doing the same to woman. Then i do not want to be a sikh anymore (like the girl that wanted to delete her surname Kaur).

Equality? A bad joke in reality. --Sanjit S Sandhu

Yes

Mr. Sanjit Sandhu,
Article is old even i contributed a lot to article. When my knowledge will increase the topic will get change itself. I will delete my comments and will write again from beggining. Now coming to above questions

1) A person born in Sikh family cut hair is called Patit. He is no more sikh. Choose some different religion and spread poison against sikhs, being into that religion, we Sikhs are ready to take poison. Ab to adat c ho gayi hai.

2) A person who is from some other religion and slowly getting into folds of Sikhism is called Sahajdhari. Even a guy born in sikhism is called Sahajdhari until he get bapitized and attain true form of khalsa. Still Amal is necessory else you would be calle Patit in attire of Khalsa.

3) 5Kakar makes a man Pooran Sikh. He know the use of them and he include them in his attire. You would have seperate identity. Else you are ardh sikh adha sikh or sahajdhari.

4) Decent Clothes makes you sikh, not underwear. Even Sikh underwear is very long and tied hard. Think if Some girl wearing undergarments or mini showing whole legs etc. and walking in market with LABEl SIKH. and you sikh is watching him and saying sister you looks cool. "Beauty Kapde ch sohndi hai". Indian Culture is preserved by sikhism not any other religion. We preserved Decency, We preserved Hairs(which even hindus do not have). We are players of swords. We preseved Saffron. We are not indian flag but are Wood stick on which indian flag is enjoying.

5) Long hair especially uncut hair is Nishani of Khalsa.

6) Woman want to drink then it's our responsibility to stop it and not even woman but man too. i know you are from those who accompany them in drinks....lol jus kiddin

We are not Muslims, because we allow girls to walk freely in society, we allow girls to show their face not in purdah or burkha, we allow girls to do kirtan anywhere in gurdwara, we allow girls to become jathedar of akal takhat we allow girls to recite bani daily do the work in offices even late night too. we allow girls everything they want. But what we want from girls:

A Decent way of living, An acceptable way of living
To get away from Drugs, and if sikh then roma d beadbi nahi
To know the meaning of kaur

but je apni marzi karni(Manmat) then Articles, Lectures, Books, even Granths keep no significance for them. Create your own path and follow it no problem. ....

ustaad singh