Talk:Hari Singh Nalwa

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Dispute

I have reservations on the practice of using the beads as shown in the this image http://www.sikhiwiki.org/index.php?title=Image:Hari_Singh_Nalwa_1.JPG. I request the contributer of the image to provide some reliable source which can prove the correctness of the practice shown in the image. Otherwise, I request this image should be removed and a more meaningful image should be uploaded.

Cheers!! A. S. Aulakh Talk 20:48, 1 February 2007 (MST)

  • Gur savare Aulakh Ji, I appreciate your concern regarding authenticity of an image about any famous sikh personality.The image in question is from Lahore Museum courtsery F.Azizuddin and is very well placed on sikh-heriatge U.k site as well. You can read more from the source site as per link given under:

http://www.sikh-heritage.co.uk/warriors/HariNalwa/HariNalwa.htm

Hope this satisfies your query. In fact we are used to looking at one side of the picture that Sardar Hari singh Nalwa was a great warrior.We forget that ( Warrior-Saint charachter which sikhi very much preaches) warrior saint characters are a living legend in sikhism.In fact this picture has left a deep impression in my mind that all bravery of Sardar hari singh Nalwa ji and baba dip singh ji shahid ji was result of deep mediatation and simran which they used to practice. --Guglani 05:02, 7 February 2007 (MST)

  • Veerji, thanks for the reply. My concern was not about the authenticity of the image. An image may be totally authentic but still it may show a person involved in a practice which that person may not have done. I agree with you that these great men from history were deeply religious as well but I have doubts that telling beads is a practice of Sikhism and Hari Singh Nalwa was involved in that. There are numerous quotes in Gurbani which mentions that telling beads is not a practice which does any good. Also, I did not find any reference source where it has been mentioned that Hari Singh Nalwa used to tell beads. When I asked to cite a reference, I was actually requesting to cite a reliable reference from history which specifically talks about practices of Hari Singh Nalwa. As far as muslim artists are concerned, most of them (from the history) considered Sikhs as Hindus (definitely, wrongly!), therefore, their depiction of Sikh historical figures mostly has their imagination of hindu practices. By the time someone can prove that Hari Singh Nalwa used to tell beads, why not use another image from the same site you pointed? Also, please note that I am never against your observation of Hari Singh Nalwa being religious soldier, what I am questioning is that - Did he really used to tell beads? If yes please provide reliable source from history (no paintings please, they are often just imaginations of artists) A. S. Aulakh Talk 02:23, 8 February 2007 (MST)
  • Image of Sardar Nalua with one hand on beads and on the other side wearing a full length sword even while in deep meditation posture reflects his warrior -saint personality .Before one proclaims that telling beads is forbidden in sikhism ,one one will have to produce lots of evidence for denouncing this practice and simultaneously defame many religious saints which have carried sikhi forward.--Guglani 20:41, 8 February 2007 (MST)

Is using beads (mala) for simran against Sikhi? (mala phaar-nee)

Respected Guglani ji,

This is an interesting point. I believe that any thing which allows you to constantly remember God is a good thing but at the same time I remember a tuk of Bhagat Kabir where he say why are you showing-off your mala (or something to that effect). I must say that I don't think that using a mala is against Sikhi - I am prepared to be guided - if someone can produce Gurbani to say otherwise. I believe that Gurbani is neutral on this point. If a mala helps you with your simran, then use it. But don't use it as an implement to impress your friends of your new-found toy!

Debate is always good, if we use it to learn - As Sikhs, we should be prepared to listen and learn provided we use Gurbani as our guide rather that the views of other people.

Below are a few links to Gurbani - Tell me what you think?

I agree that one must rely on Gurbani and on Gurmukhs and to challenge them is an impossible task – but lets listen to all the views and then we can make up our mind. Let's be open to discussion and not be completely intransigent in our attitude. I never think that I know everything! There are always new things to learn and sometimes you can from a small child or even an animal - lets keep an open mind and hope we will learn something useful from this discussion! I will do some research and come back to you. I suggest that we discuss the topic here as it is more central rather than on individual talk pages. Kind regards, Hari Singh 21:51, 8 February 2007 (MST)

More Gurbani

Hari Singh ji, I am in total agreement with you on Gurbani being the ultimate guide on issues like this one. I appreciate your reply in this regard and I'm impressed with your method of dealing with a debate. I am also very open to different views if someone can increase the knowledge of me illiterate.
Dear Guglani ji, I'm not against you or anybody uploading an image, also I am not against the view that Hari Singh Nalua was a "Saint Soldier" (I have already mentioned that). Also, my primary source of knowledge is Gurbani and in order to save the originality of the philosophy of Guru Nanak Dev ji I care very little if any saint is getting maligned. I am not here to save the scalp of those people who did not understand the true essence of Gurbani and I believe that saints are no Gods. Please do not take my words as personal, pure typed words are always rough and dry but I do not mean to sound like that. My other view is that any confusing practice should not be promoted on portals like Sikhiwiki, future generations will look upto Sikhiwiki for guidance on subjet matters related to Sikhism.
Hari Singh ji already cited some hymns from Guru Granth Sahib, let me add a few more:-

  1. ਪੜਿ ਪ੝ਸਤਕ ਸੰਧਿਆ ਬਾਦੰ ॥ ਸਿਲ ਪੂਜਸਿ ਬਗ੝ਲ ਸਮਾਧੰ ॥ ਮ੝ਖਿ ਝੂਠ ਬਿਭੂਖਣ ਸਾਰੰ ॥ ਤ੝ਰੈਪਾਲ ਤਿਹਾਲ ਬਿਚਾਰੰ ॥ ਗਲਿ ਮਾਲਾ ਤਿਲਕ੝ ਲਿਲਾਟੰ ॥ ਦ੝ਇ ਧੋਤੀ ਬਸਤ੝ਰ ਕਪਾਟੰ ॥ ਜੇ ਜਾਣਸਿ ਬ੝ਰਹਮੰ ਕਰਮੰ ॥ ਸਭਿ ਫੋਕਟ ਨਿਸਚਉ ਕਰਮੰ ॥ ਕਹ੝ ਨਾਨਕ ਨਿਹਚਉ ਧਿਆਵੈ ॥ (SGGS p470)

    You read your books and say your prayers, and then engage in debate; you worship stones and sit like a stork, pretending to be in Samaadhi. With your mouth you utter falsehood, and you adorn yourself with precious decoration you recite the three lines of the Gayatri three times a day. Around your neck is a rosary, and on your forehead is a sacred mark; upon your head is a turban, and you wear two loin cloths. If you knew the nature of God, you would know that all of these beliefs and rituals are in vain. Says Nanak, meditate with deep faith;

  2. ਧੋਤੀ ਊਜਲ ਤਿਲਕ੝ ਗਲਿ ਮਾਲਾ ॥ ਅੰਤਰਿ ਕ੝ਰੋਧ੝ ਪੜਹਿ ਨਾਟ ਸਾਲਾ ॥ ਨਾਮ੝ ਵਿਸਾਰਿ ਮਾਇਆ ਮਦ੝ ਪੀਆ ॥ ਬਿਨ੝ ਗ੝ਰ ਭਗਤਿ ਨਾਹੀ ਸ੝ਖ੝ ਥੀਆ ॥੪॥ (SGGS p832)

    He may wear a clean loin-cloth, apply the ceremonial mark to his forehead, and wear a mala around his neck; but if there is anger within him, he is merely reading his part, like an actor in a play. Forgetting the Naam, the Name of the Lord, he drinks in the wine of Maya. Without devotional worship to the Guru, there is no peace. ||4||

  3. ਸਾਲ ਗ੝ਰਾਮ ਬਿਪ ਪੂਜਿ ਮਨਾਵਹ੝ ਸ੝ਕ੝ਰਿਤ੝ ਤ੝ਲਸੀ ਮਾਲਾ ॥ ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮ੝ ਜਪਿ ਬੇੜਾ ਬਾਂਧਹ੝ ਦਇਆ ਕਰਹ੝ ਦਇਆਲਾ ॥੧॥

    O Brahmin, you worship and believe in your stone-god, and wear your ceremonial rosary beads. Chant the Name of the Lord. Build your boat, and pray, "O Merciful Lord, please be merciful to me."||1||

  4. ਮਾਥੇ ਤਿਲਕ੝ ਹਥਿ ਮਾਲਾ ਬਾਨਾਂ ॥ ਲੋਗਨ ਰਾਮ੝ ਖਿਲਉਨਾ ਜਾਨਾਂ ॥੧॥ ਜਉ ਹਉ ਬਉਰਾ ਤਉ ਰਾਮ ਤੋਰਾ ॥ ਲੋਗ੝ ਮਰਮ੝ ਕਹ ਜਾਨੈ ਮੋਰਾ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ ਤੋਰਉ ਨ ਪਾਤੀ ਪੂਜਉ ਨ ਦੇਵਾ ॥ ਰਾਮ ਭਗਤਿ ਬਿਨ੝ ਨਿਹਫਲ ਸੇਵਾ ॥੨॥ ਸਤਿਗ੝ਰ੝ ਪੂਜਉ ਸਦਾ ਸਦਾ ਮਨਾਵਉ ॥ (SGGS p1158)

    Some apply ceremonial marks to their foreheads, hold malas in their hands, and wear religious robes. Some people think that the Lord is a play-thing. ||1|| If I am insane, then I am Yours, O Lord. How can people know my secret? ||1||Pause|| I do not pick leaves as offerings, and I do not worship idols. Without devotional worship of the Lord, service is useless. ||2|| I worship the True Guru; forever and ever, I surrender to Him.

  5. ਕਬੀਰ ਬੈਸਨੋ ਹੂਆ ਤ ਕਿਆ ਭਇਆ ਮਾਲਾ ਮੇਲੀਂ ਚਾਰਿ ॥ ਬਾਹਰਿ ਕੰਚਨ੝ ਬਾਰਹਾ ਭੀਤਰਿ ਭਰੀ ਭੰਗਾਰ ॥੧੪੫॥ ਕਬੀਰ ਰੋੜਾ ਹੋਇ ਰਹ੝ ਬਾਟ ਕਾ ਤਜਿ ਮਨ ਕਾ ਅਭਿਮਾਨ੝ ॥ ਝਸਾ ਕੋਈ ਦਾਸ੝ ਹੋਇ ਤਾਹਿ ਮਿਲੈ ਭਗਵਾਨ੝ ॥੧੪੬॥ ਕਬੀਰ ਰੋੜਾ ਹੂਆ ਤ ਕਿਆ ਭਇਆ ਪੰਥੀ ਕਉ ਦ੝ਖ੝ ਦੇਇ ॥ ਝਸਾ ਤੇਰਾ ਦਾਸ੝ ਹੈ ਜਿਉ ਧਰਨੀ ਮਹਿ ਖੇਹ ॥੧੪੭॥ ਕਬੀਰ ਖੇਹ ਹੂਈ ਤਉ ਕਿਆ ਭਇਆ ਜਉ ਉਡਿ ਲਾਗੈ ਅੰਗ ॥ ਹਰਿ ਜਨ੝ ਝਸਾ ਚਾਹੀਝ ਜਿਉ ਪਾਨੀ ਸਰਬੰਗ ॥੧੪੮॥ ਕਬੀਰ ਪਾਨੀ ਹੂਆ ਤ ਕਿਆ ਭਇਆ ਸੀਰਾ ਤਾਤਾ ਹੋਇ ॥ ਹਰਿ ਜਨ੝ ਝਸਾ ਚਾਹੀਝ ਜੈਸਾ ਹਰਿ ਹੀ ਹੋਇ ॥੧੪੯॥

    Kabeer, what good is it to become a devotee of Vishnu, and wear four malas? On the outside, he may look like pure gold, but on the inside, he is stuffed with dust. ||145|| Kabeer, let yourself be a pebble on the path; abandon your egotistical pride. Such a humble slave shall meet the Lord God. ||146||\ Kabeer, what good would it be, to be a pebble? It would only hurt the traveller on the path. Your slave, O Lord, is like the dust of the earth. ||147|| Kabeer, what then, if one could become dust? It is blown up by the wind, and sticks to the body. The humble servant of the Lord should be like water, which cleans everything. ||148|| Kabeer, what then, if one could become water? It becomes cold, then hot The humble servant of the Lord should be just like the Lord. ||149||
  6. Now let us ask Guru Nanak , he in fact asks us, and then answers:-

    ਕਿਵ ਸਚਿਆਰਾ ਹੋਈਝ ਕਿਵ ਕੂੜੈ ਤ੝ਟੈ ਪਾਲ॥ ਹ੝ਕਮ ਰਜਾਈ ਚਲਣਾ ਨਾਨਕ ਲਿਖਿਆ ਨਾਲਿ॥

    How could one become Truthful (Sachiara)? How could one get rid of ignorance and falsehood? “ By living in harmony with the Divine Law (Hukam),” asserts Nanak. The primary objective of human life is to become a Sachiara ie. God like....(this off course does not need Mala)
Also, I have seen people who use Mala, there primary motive is to recite Naam (there can be another debate on what is Naam?, as most of the people just take it as the literary meaning - Name of lord etc. ) and then count. It often leads to either show-off that the person is doing to the world of his/her being religious or is a "sauda" (business) with the God by calculating how many times one has taken the lords name. Both these are clearly not what Sikhism teaches. Gurmat tells show-off is useless and it also tells that we cannot do "saudey" with the lord. NOTE: The english translations, except the last one, are taken from www.srigranth.org. Though I do not normally use these direct word to word translations without "vyakhaya" (detailed explanations) I had do it today as due to lack of time.A. S. Aulakh Talk 18:35, 9 February 2007 (MST)

Reply 3

  • Respected Aulakh Ji,
    Tuks from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji should be used to derive meaning as per context in which these have been written.If i use first tuk reference given by you ਪੜਿ ਪ੝ਸਤਕ ਸੰਧਿਆ ਬਾਦੰ You read your books and say your prayers, and then engage in debate to mean that in Sri Guru Granth Sahib reading books and engaging ibn debate is a forbidden practice it would be an erroneous meaning.A practice as such may not be wrong but a purpose for which that practice has been used may be maligned;action of using that practice for a maligned purpose it is that which need be criticised or discouraged.Ther are thousands of images of Guru Nank Dev ji in several sikh homes,on several sikh sites which carry mala around gUru Ji's neck.Even image loaded by Hari Singh ji at sikhiwiki site about Guru Nanak dev Ji in that very article carries mala around Guru Ji's neck.So to my mind discussion on this topic is futile exercise and we should utilize our time in some more creative activity rather than wasting on this subject.Kind regards --Guglani 21:09, 11 February 2007 (MST)

Reply 4

Dear Guglani ji,
Apologies for not being able to respond sooner, got too much consumed with the changes in life. I do not agree with the usefulness of the example you gave in the line "....to mean that in Sri Guru Granth Sahib reading books and engaging ibn debate is a forbidden practice". Do you mean to say that the quoted Gurbani is encouraging the use of Mala? Please enlighten me what those lines are saying (though the English translations are given already). I guess I'll learn something from your interpretations.
Your reasoning by the example of the presence of pictures in thousands of Sikhs homes with Malas does not appeal to my mind either. All those pictures are the result of imaginations of the artists, the gurus did not leave their portraits behind. Since most of the artists were living in a society where saints were were synonymous with "Khadayoo" (wooden slippers), "kamandal", "malas" etc., they painted the pictures of Sikhs Gurus with these articles. You will agree that, generally speaking, a painter is not a historian or a researcher. There are 3 sources from which they can derive their work in this case - their own imaginations, by looking at a person and drawing the picture or by listening what people around them are talking. The artists could not have seen Gurus as they were simply not their contemporaries and the other 2 sources from which they derive their work do not guarantee correctness of the facts.
You said, "Even image loaded by Hari Singh ji at sikhiwiki site about Guru Nanak dev Ji in that very article carries mala around Guru Ji's neck". What are you asserting here by this example? I have mentioned that most of the paintings about Sikh Guru's are flawed and infected by the majority belief that existed when the painters painted them. You, me and Hari Singh ji are all prone to errors. Hari Singh ji already very humbly stated this in one of his replies. So just the fact that Hari Singh ji have contributed some picture with mala does not make it the ultimate truth of the cosmos.
No, I don't think the discussion on this topic is a futile exercise. One has to be wise and logical as per gurbani. We are not encouraged to follow things blindly by Gurbani. My first question was - did Hari Singh Nalwa tell beads? I did not get answer to that question and just the fact that some artist painted him with beads does not make my mind accept the practice shown. My request was to raise the level of information that we present on the Sikhiwiki site as most of the next generation of the Sikhs will look upto the site for guidance and information. If dubious, wrong or unverified information is being put on the site it will not only degrade the quality of the site but also will mislead the readers.
Regards,
A. S. Aulakh Talk 17:08, 16 June 2007 (EDT)

Reply 5

  • Respected Aulakh Ji
    I have read all the quotations from Gurbani that you list, but I don't think there is one that directly prohibits the practice of "mala phaar-nee". Is there any one quotation that totally forbids this practice or speaks directly and clearly against this custom. If you could choose only 2 Shabads of Gurbani to support your view - which ones would you choose and how would you justify that Gurbani clearly speak against this habit. To simply imply that "showing-off that one is meditating" is undesirable is not, in my opinion a strong argument – because, for example, one could say that using a Gutka to recite Gurbani is "showing–off" and hence undesirable. And what about the other outer features that display a sign of "holiness" like turban, long beard, bana, 5Ks, etc – they are not banned; in fact we encourage them - so why does a mala become so important and should be banned?

    I am intrigued why the mala get this special treatment – How about instrument to help with Simran and Shabad like Rabab, flute, etc; Why not sing Shabads without instruments or like the Muslims – ban music altogether? Pictures showing a person carrying a Rabab is a sign of "holiness" – should these pictures be banned? It raises some important questions and I wonder what your answers will be? If mala is banned because it helps with timing and counting – How about a clock? Would you consider that any implement for measuring the amount of devotion that you give to Waheguru should be banned? What is the basic criteria for banning? Because it is a sign of "holiness"; an implement for counting one's dedication; or is it something else? Sorry for all the questions but I am still not fully convinced and I am hoping that you will be able to enlighten. Many thanks in advance for your interesting query and dedication and devotion to the cause, Hari Singh 18:31, 12 February 2007 (MST)

Reply 6

Dear Hari Singh ji,
My first question to the contributor was - Did Hari Singh Nalwa tell beads? Please provide some references. Second contention that I had was about the use of Mala in Sikhism. May be you can enlighten me about the purpose so - please tell me why mala is used? The only purpose I understand is that to count how many times the user recites the name of the lord. What is the purpose of that? I hope you will help me understand the use of Mala. I still feel that its not something that is encouraged in Sikhism and wait for you to help me understand the "function" of mala.
Regards,
A. S. Aulakh Talk 17:22, 16 June 2007 (EDT)

Reply 7

On the issue of the paintings of Guru Nanak painted with Mala in hand, an article is reproduced below.
A. S. Aulakh Talk 18:58, 16 June 2007 (EDT)
Guru Nanak and Mala
-Gurpreet Singh Sumra
Guru Nanak saab’s dress code has been shown in different ways in different pictures which are just the imagination of artists. When we look at these pictures we see lot of things that are not according to the teachings of Guru Saab himself. Guru Nanak saab is shown wearing mala around his neck, holding it in his hand and even has it around his dastaar. Now the point to think is, why would Guru saab do this pakhand of mala, when Guru saab himself condemned these pakhands and karamkand
“chhodile pakhandaa naam laye jahe taranda” (SGGS Pg 471)
Give up these tantrums, and just recite the name of lord. It means that these pictures are fake because they show guru saab with mala. In a very famous book that has been banned and was released by Jathedar saab, Guru Saab is shown wearing a topi. Pictures show Guru saab wearing wooden khadawaans in his feet.
We should use our rational mind and historical facts to see what could have been the dress of Guru Saab. Guru Saab during his udassis even went to places that were extremely cold, some historians even says that Guru saab visited Tashkent.In those cold places and minus temperatures Guru Saab would have possibly worn leather shoes and warm clothes. Its not possible that Guru Saab could have gone to such far off places wearing wooden slippers or khadawans.Guru Saab even went to mountains in high altitude places and there are no roads so wearing khadawaans to go to such places does not make sense. But these Sant Babas will show Guru Saab in khadawaans because they have to get the Sangat matha tek to these khadawaans otherwise how will their roti fulka chalu. Recently some relatives of Mardana came and said we have Guru Saabs mala. Some get darshan of Guru Nanak with malas, this should clearly expose these charlatans,because if we think with cool head that Guru Saab who is condemning this mala, will they take mala in their hand?
Rather Guru saab during his udassis passed through many jungles where there are dangerous animals, passed through many dangerous places and also met many dangerous people like Kauda bhil(rakshas).
So I think that Guru Saab would possibly have kirpan with them or some other similar thing with them for encountering such situations.Guru Nanak was a fearless personality ,Guru Saab openly challenged Babar by stating his misdeeds at that time when people used to urinate in their pants on hearing the name of any invader.Dr. Ganda Singh stated in an open discussion that the freedom struggle was started by Guru Nanak.
What we see in pictures is Guru saabs head slightly tilted on one side with mala in their hand. Does such pictures makes any sense if we look at the great personality of Guru Saab.
Guru Saab dressed depending on different conditions like weather(warm/cold) and also depending on circumstances as Bhai Gurdas states: “babe bhek banaya udasi ki reet chalai,chadya sodhan dhart lukai” (Var 1, Pg 24)
“Baba phir make gaya, neel bastar dhare banwari,aasa hath kitab kach kuja bang musala dhari” (Var 1, Pg 32)
“phir baba aaya kartarpur bhek udasi sagal uttara, pehar sansari kapde manji baith kiya avtara” (Var 1, Pg 38)
Even bhai Gurdas don’t mention any Mala or khadawaan. We all know Guru Saab even tilled his land in Kartarpur, so it means Guru Saab dressed like normal people who do farming. But these pictures portray Guru Saab as some Deredaar sitting on his Takht. There is no doubt Guru Saab preached and used to give discourses , but not the way these pictures portray if we think using our mind.
Now let us see what Guru saab says about this mala/tasbi: “pad pustak sandhya baadam, sil pujas bagul samadham Much jhooth bhibhukhan saaram, trepal tihal bicharam Gal mala tilak lilatam, dui dhoti bastar kapatam Jat janas brahmam karmam sab fokat nishyao karmam Kaho nanak nihchyo dhyawe, vin satgur vat na paawe” (SGGS Pg 470)
O pundit! You read Vedas and worship stones and do meditation like crane, you say lies by coating it in beautiful jewels and read gayatri mantar 3 times a day,you have mala around your neck,tilak on your head ,2 clothes and cover your head but listen all these things are useless.says nanak! Just remember lord that’s the only way but you can get it through satguru.
“dhoti ujjal tilak gol mala,antar krodh pade natsala Naam visar maya mad piya bin gur bhagat nahi sukh thiya” (SGGS Pg 832)
Those who are drunk with maya they cant get any happiness evenif they wear clean dhoti have tilak on head and wear mala.The only way is the name of lord without doing these pakhands.
“salgram bidh puj manavoh sukrit tulsi mala Ram naam jap beda badho daya karo dyala” (SGGS Pg 1171)
Hey pundit! Remember the name of lord and overcome your vices to across this world, consider this as your stone worship and mala.
There are lot of other shabads where Gurusaab has condemned this mala. Even Bhai Gurdas says: “amli khame majlasi piram pyala alakh lakhaya Mala tasbi tod ke jeo so tive atthotar laya Mer imam ralayi ke ram rahim na nau ginaya” (Var 39)
Sikhs of Guru are the worshippers of waheguru, they don’t worship stones or mala nor do they jap ram or rahim but only waheguru.
So we should not bow to any pictures or photographs as they are only imaginations of artists but try to read Gurbani and most important understand it. If we read and understand these Sant Babe can not fool us by saying that they have get darshan of Guru nanak and Guru Gobind Singhji. There is a Sarkari saadh in Delhi Virsa Singh who has even tried to claim that he is Guru Gobind Singh ji.

NAAM ISHNAAN:nanak mnnia mnniyy, bhujhiyy gur prsaad

Sayth Lord TRUTH in Thy own Language SatGurBani..... .....bhuqw naahi bolna........... ......aml gulylla kood da ditta dyvn haar.......... .....andhy sio kia kahiy .....khy na kahia bujhy...... .....sakt sang na keekey duron jaiy bhaj .....baad vivad kahoo sy nahi .....Nanak mannia manniyy, Bujhiyy gur prsaad

Dear Kh A. S. Aulakh Singh ji..........WaKaFa!!

How can a deaf person listen to the eighteen Puraanas and the Vedas?

Regards !
Baljeet Kaur, Amita Singh & all Mutias We are Sikhs 16 June 2007 (EDT)

Hadh ae

Pictorial of Guru nanak etc shows mala tell me one thing kae aise hastee nu mala dee lod paindie si naam japan lai, eh painters nae aimey he designed kartee. Mala is not the way to take name loki mala fad gini jandey aj ini waar ram keha ini waar waheguru paap karee jandey

I m not in fovour of Mala Fernaa

Purpose of Mala

Dear A. S. Aulakh ji,

Waheguru ji ka Khalsa, Waheguru ji ki Fateh

Why use a Mala? My understanding is that there are various reasons for using the Mala. The simplest one is that it is an implement to provide an indirect method for the measurement of time, without the need to break from your meditation. If one decide to do simran using a mala, then by keeping a count you establish roughly a fixed length of time. These days we would use an alarm. If you have commitments of work or studying, you don't want to end up immersed in your dedication and miss your duties.

The second function of a Mala is to give you a rhythm or "Lah" - just as a tabla is used to keep a constant beat. The Mala achieves a similar beat for your Simran.

The other function is one of concentration. By using the hand, the motor nerves in the arm, the tongue, the mind, the breath, etc. one hopes that you can stop the mind wandering and bring stillness in your thoughts. By this concerted effort, one hopes to gain a better ability to control the impulses of the mind. Just like we do physical exercises to make our body fit; these are mental exercises to make the mind more alert.

Sikhism has a lot to do with conciousness and mortality. You need a good logical and alert mind to be able to achieve these tasks properly. I suppose using beads is one way of training and focusing your mind. I am sure there must be other reasons but these are the ones that come to mind.

Did Hari Singh Nalwa tell beads? I have no idea! It is possible that he may have but one can never tell for certain. It like saying did Guru Gobind Singh ever wear a red turban? We can never answer that question positively and truly as most of us did not exist in the 1600s - but I think most people would say it was possible as Sikhi does not have anything against the colour red! I hope this helps. das, Hari Singh 00:13, 18 June 2007 (EDT) ________________________________________________________________________________________________

Views of little Intelect provided by Great Lord

Dear Aulakh Ji and Hari singh Ji,

When i try to analyze this issue using little own intellect, by taking evedence from SGGS Guru Ji tells us to do Bhakti in the way Bhakat Prahlad and bhakat Dhroo has done quote: "raam japo jeea aisae aisae || dhhroo prehilaadh japiou har jaisae ||1|| Just as Dhroo and Prahlaad meditated on the Lord, so should you meditate on the Lord, O my soul. ||1|| Ang 337 SGGS" Extending argument further we are guded to do bhakti like bhakat Kabir has done.And Kabir ji says in SGGS: "yeh maalaa apanee leejai || Here, Lord, take back Your mala. Ang 656 SGGS Raag Sorith :Sant Kabir" If he was not carrying any mala then which mala he wants to surrender to Supreme Lord.well so far my little intellect.

But when i consider interpretation of revered Prof. Sahib Singh ji about this.Quote from Darpan: Mala kabirji.JPG

and also when i consider views of Bhai sahib Bhai Kahn Singh Ji nabha in his Mahan Kosh quote: Jpumalamahankosh.JPG

Even when Scholar and earliest sikh writer author of 'Nanak Prakash' descirbes saroop of Sri Guru Gobind Singh sahib with 'mala around his neck' in his writings, quote: Mala nanakprakash.JPG

i would like to get convinced that in words of Bhai Kahn Singh Ji that "In sikh religion mediatation by counting is not the rule."I agree that there is no direct prohibition of mala pherni practice.Important is with what aim an action or Karma is done.But to end the controversy i get convinced to replace the Image of Sardar Nalua Ji with any other popular image by editors of sikhiwiki.--Guglani 06
05, 19 June 2007 (EDT)

Bani is God's nay! TRUTH god's Language

ETERNAL TRUTHs

NAAM, NAAM DAAN, NAAM ISHNAAN

Kiv sachiara hoviyy.????....

Hukum razai challna....(profess, listen to, believe in & walk only this way

..sb aapy he sachiaar....

..Nanak Sachiaary Kh A S Aulakh ko sach(TRUTH god) jaan

..Nanak Sachiaary Kh Kakkaji ko sach(TRUTH god)jaan

Akhan jor Chupyy nhi joor....

satgur bajho hor kachi hyy bani.....bani ta kach satgur bajho hor kachii bani....kahindy kachyy sundy kachyy kachi aakh vikhani....Satgur Bajhon hor kachii hayy bani.

  • A TRUE Sikh sees no scholars no books no analysis but SatGurBani.
  • SatGurBani alone can support SatGurBani no way Mala or ...or... or....
  • Gurbani is flawlessly WHITE.
  • Gurbani refers to Black Spots
  • Manmukhs see it light gray or dark grey & if required any shade of grey.
  • Manmukhs put in best efforts to prove that it is Grey not white .
  • Pertinent to quoat a punjabi proverb here "sau siany ik matt murkha appoo aapni (countless grey shades can be seen)".

'neecha ander neech jaat neechee hu ati neech....nanak nadri paiyy koodi kudy theese

  • Gurbani means nothing but TRUTH. Every Shabad has to be understood in the backdrop of entire myra SatGur poora & poori Bani.

Khana peena pavit hay..... does no way mean that Gurbani permits 'eating, drinking & merry making, as Manmukhs would love it to mean it that way, where ever & whenever they have their way. It reqires scholarly analysis to prove that 3HO is anti Sikhi.

  • Gurbani is best understood by neech class of the society.
  • Neech class needs no grammer no scholarly analysis.
  • Poor man's language can only be learnt from neecha andar neech ban ky aty ja ky.
  • No way from Sikhs of INTERNET breed like us.
  • Stinking streets of Punjab Villages is the place where Gurbani is understood honoured & revered the way Punjabi Gurmat scholars nay! even junkies understand. Ask a typical punjabi junky in a Punjab village to bow before a Photo, he may respond by shhoting a drink down his throat before he shoots a box on the face of the intruder in his reverance for Gurbani, his junky profile not withstanding.
  • In english 'TALK' has to be written as 'TALK' but spoken as 'taak'
  • In punjabi when an angry mother tells her daughter "..mr pary..(go & kill yourself) " She is not issuing a commandment for her to commit suicide.
  • Nanak sahib blended himself with the culture ( Hindu temples... might have even used mala to get closer to FALSE IDOLs of TRUTH god ie Pandas ....Bodh temples....Macca etc...) he studied for sake of having a closer look at the comples maze & deadly tentakles of FALSEHOOD & for staying out of trouble.
  • In Gurbani if terms 'Mala' & 'yoga' etce are used, it no way means that we forget Mool Mantar which expects us to become nothing but Khalsa (holding a Mala in one hand & sowrd in another. There is no dearth of such like classic works of art in India....Kind courtsy FALSEHOOD....not That SikhiWiki does not have such works of art. Sheik Fareed is begging for his life from crows, Nanak Sahib is counting beads before having his breakfast of fruits positioned before him by Sikhs who have left him alone to grant him his part of the privacy).

Fearless Kirti Purush Nanak who speaks fearlessly & flawlessly..... jo tau prem khelan ka chau...... .....Soora so pahichaniyy jo lary deen ky hyyt purjaa purjaa katt mryy......do need mala to draw some spirituality through cosmos blending down to the naad from his left norstle(whatever that may mean! no not at all funny we need to do better)

O! us SIKHS of SatGurBani let us pray to no one but our ownself that

mat vich rattan jwahr maanak jy ik gur ki sikh suni.....

O myry gura! (TRUTH god) please just make me understand & believe that Gurbani is alredy written on our heart but please please give us the light to read it. Unless you are on my right side no scholar can teach it to me...

  • Such alight is avalable from Guru's issue counter during the office hours. Through the day, TRUTH god has bussiness to attend to.

Appy patti kalam aap upper lyykh we tu.....

  • Nanak loves to discuss 'Death'. Manmukhs worry about authenticity of Mala, Yoga, vegeterianism, spirituality, ...,.....,...

Nanak has to be aided by Mala for Time keeping & count of 'Naam Jap'. Makes sense there were no watches like we have today.

  • It is unfortunate that we Sikhs, spend all the Net resources on analysing Mala, Vegiterianism , Yoga, 3HO, Spritualism, ...chanting, ...repeating, ... and not analysing NAAM DAAN & NAAM ISHNAAN.
  • "Naam Simran koi gorakh Dhanda nahi hyy", it is thinking nothing but Gur (ideas) of becoming TRUTHFULL. Let us Sikhs be first dedicate ourself to truthfullness as beatifully & flawlessly brought out by Kh User: A. S. Aulakh Sahib SACHIAARA.

Aulakh Sir, Hau Kurbany jau tuhady hau kurbany jau.....

Sikhing God's nay! TRUTH god's Language

  • There is only one way of learning GurBani.

Gaviyy, suniyy, manniyyy, vichariyy aty mn rkhiyy bhau......during amrit vela to begin with & then following it through the day. No where Gurbani says that it has to be disputed, dibated, wrangeled over & analysed to be understood. But it says loud & Clear Gaviyy, suniyy, manniyyy vichariyy aty mn rkhiyy bhau......

Amrit Vela sc nau vadiaai (objective, rational & universal thought process.....) veecaar.

Akhar lag kanna bhul chuk muaf.....''O Satgur please pardon us if we Sikh.s inadvertantly lapsed on understanding your language even by an iota bit

jithy bolan thakeeyy oothy changee chup.... vaad vivaad kahoo sy nahee.... ....Hau apradhi guneh gar hau bemukh manda. ..Simr mureeda dhadeea Satgur Bakshinda

--Nanak Ghar ky Goly aty Khalsy dy dar dy KuttyMutias 21 Jun 07

Surprised over the great debate

When last i looked there were two comments on this page. I asked how or what 'telling beads' meant as i thought like in Hindu, Catholic and Muslim religions they were only used to count the no. of reps of a prayer. Not withstanding that certain types of beads are said to be more auspicious than others in Hinduism that is were i thought Guru Nanak was directing his comments.

Good thing that Guru Nanak is the only one to use a forest (the Lakhi forest) to sum his prayers, or was it the no. of prayers or the no. of trees. the article on wikipedia the site gives no refs and supports the no of prayers. any opinions? is telling beads some occult thing or just numbers and keeping count?

Jesus, said to not let your left hand know what your right hand was up to in matters of prayer-ie keep your pieity to yourself, and your prayers private, your support or donations secret as well, yet Muslims think it important for everyone being seen at namaz. if one thinks holding beads is a statement - look at me see how Holy i am! should all the photos of Sikhs marching to the fronts of WWI and II with their Granthi in front with a Chanani over the SGGS on his head be cropped out, surely this is showing, like the beads, that those men took their Religion seriously even taking their Guru into battle with them. confused, maybe i just don't know enough to see the arguments merit. Allenwalla 20:32, 18 April 2008 (MDT)

Well the new illustration, seems to have ended the debate. Allenwalla 08:52, 3 September 2009 (UTC) Wearing beads doesn't seem to be a problem, a hand counting them (former illustration/date unknown) seems to be controversial.

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