Talk:Hari Singh Nalwa

From SikhiWiki
Jump to navigationJump to search

Dispute

I have reservations on the practice of using the beads as shown in the this image http://www.sikhiwiki.org/index.php?title=Image:Hari_Singh_Nalwa_1.JPG. I request the contributer of the image to provide some reliable source which can prove the correctness of the practice shown in the image. Otherwise, I request this image should be removed and a more meaningful image should be uploaded.

Cheers!! A. S. Aulakh Talk 20:48, 1 February 2007 (MST)

  • Gur savare Aulakh Ji, I appreciate your concern regarding authenticity of an image about any famous sikh personality.The image in question is from Lahore Museum courtsery F.Azizuddin and is very well placed on sikh-heriatge U.k site as well. You can read more from the source site as per link given under:

http://www.sikh-heritage.co.uk/warriors/HariNalwa/HariNalwa.htm

Hope this satisfies your query. In fact we are used to looking at one side of the picture that Sardar Hari singh Nalwa was a great warrior.We forget that ( Warrior-Saint charachter which sikhi very much preaches) warrior saint characters are a living legend in sikhism.In fact this picture has left a deep impression in my mind that all bravery of Sardar hari singh Nalwa ji and baba dip singh ji shahid ji was result of deep mediatation and simran which they used to practice. --Guglani 05:02, 7 February 2007 (MST)

  • Veerji, thanks for the reply. My concern was not about the authenticity of the image. An image may be totally authentic but still it may show a person involved in a practice which that person may not have done. I agree with you that these great men from history were deeply religious as well but I have doubts that telling beads is a practice of Sikhism and Hari Singh Nalwa was involved in that. There are numerous quotes in Gurbani which mentions that telling beads is not a practice which does any good. Also, I did not find any reference source where it has been mentioned that Hari Singh Nalwa used to tell beads. When I asked to cite a reference, I was actually requesting to cite a reliable reference from history which specifically talks about practices of Hari Singh Nalwa. As far as muslim artists are concerned, most of them (from the history) considered Sikhs as Hindus (definitely, wrongly!), therefore, their depiction of Sikh historical figures mostly has their imagination of hindu practices. By the time someone can prove that Hari Singh Nalwa used to tell beads, why not use another image from the same site you pointed? Also, please note that I am never against your observation of Hari Singh Nalwa being religious soldier, what I am questioning is that - Did he really used to tell beads? If yes please provide reliable source from history (no paintings please, they are often just imaginations of artists) A. S. Aulakh Talk 02:23, 8 February 2007 (MST)
  • Image of Sardar Nalua with one hand on beads and on the other side wearing a full length sword even while in deep meditation posture reflects his warrior -saint personality .Before one proclaims that telling beads is forbidden in sikhism ,one one will have to produce lots of evidence for denouncing this practice and simultaneously defame many religious saints which have carried sikhi forward.--Guglani 20:41, 8 February 2007 (MST)

Is using beads (mala) for simran against Sikhi? (mala phaar-nee)

Respected Guglani ji,

This is an interesting point. I believe that any thing which allows you to constantly remember God is a good thing but at the same time I remember a tuk of Bhagat Kabir where he say why are you showing-off your mala (or something to that effect). I must say that I don't think that using a mala is against Sikhi - I am prepared to be guided - if someone can produce Gurbani to say otherwise. I believe that Gurbani is neutral on this point. If a mala helps you with your simran, then use it. But don't use it as an implement to impress your friends of your new-found toy!

Debate is always good, if we use it to learn - As Sikhs, we should be prepared to listen and learn provided we use Gurbani as our guide rather that the views of other people.

Below are a few links to Gurbani - Tell me what you think?

I agree that one must rely on Gurbani and on Gurmukhs and to challenge them is an impossible task – but lets listen to all the views and then we can make up our mind. Let's be open to discussion and not be completely intransigent in our attitude. I never think that I know everything! There are always new things to learn and sometimes you can from a small child or even an animal - lets keep an open mind and hope we will learn something useful from this discussion! I will do some research and come back to you. I suggest that we discuss the topic here as it is more central rather than on individual talk pages.

Kind regards, Hari Singh 21:51, 8 February 2007 (MST)

Hari Singh ji, I am in total agreement with you on Gurbani being the ultimate guide on issues like this one. I appreciate your reply in this regard and I'm impressed with your method of dealing with a debate. I am also very open to different views if someone can increase the knowledge of me illiterate.
Dear Guglani ji, I'm not against you or anybody uploading an image, also I am not against the view that Hari Singh Nalua was a "Saint Soldier" (I have already mentioned that). Also, my primary source of knowledge is Gurbani and in order to save the originality of the philosophy of Guru Nanak Dev ji I care very little if any saint is getting maligned. I am not here to save the scalp of those people who did not understand the true essence of Gurbani and I believe that saints are no Gods. Please do not take my words as personal, pure typed words are always rough and dry but I do not mean to sound like that. My other view is that any confusing practice should not be promoted on portals like Sikhiwiki, future generations will look upto Sikhiwiki for guidance on subjet matters related to Sikhism.
Hari Singh ji already cited some hymns from Guru Granth Sahib, let me add a few more:-
  1. ਪੜਿ ਪ੝ਸਤਕ ਸੰਧਿਆ ਬਾਦੰ ॥ ਸਿਲ ਪੂਜਸਿ ਬਗ੝ਲ ਸਮਾਧੰ ॥ ਮ੝ਖਿ ਝੂਠ ਬਿਭੂਖਣ ਸਾਰੰ ॥ ਤ੝ਰੈਪਾਲ ਤਿਹਾਲ ਬਿਚਾਰੰ ॥ ਗਲਿ ਮਾਲਾ ਤਿਲਕ੝ ਲਿਲਾਟੰ ॥ ਦ੝ਇ ਧੋਤੀ ਬਸਤ੝ਰ ਕਪਾਟੰ ॥ ਜੇ ਜਾਣਸਿ ਬ੝ਰਹਮੰ ਕਰਮੰ ॥ ਸਭਿ ਫੋਕਟ ਨਿਸਚਉ ਕਰਮੰ ॥ ਕਹ੝ ਨਾਨਕ ਨਿਹਚਉ ਧਿਆਵੈ ॥ (SGGS p470)

    You read your books and say your prayers, and then engage in debate; you worship stones and sit like a stork, pretending to be in Samaadhi. With your mouth you utter falsehood, and you adorn yourself with precious decoration you recite the three lines of the Gayatri three times a day. Around your neck is a rosary, and on your forehead is a sacred mark; upon your head is a turban, and you wear two loin cloths. If you knew the nature of God, you would know that all of these beliefs and rituals are in vain. Says Nanak, meditate with deep faith;
  2. ਧੋਤੀ ਊਜਲ ਤਿਲਕ੝ ਗਲਿ ਮਾਲਾ ॥ ਅੰਤਰਿ ਕ੝ਰੋਧ੝ ਪੜਹਿ ਨਾਟ ਸਾਲਾ ॥ ਨਾਮ੝ ਵਿਸਾਰਿ ਮਾਇਆ ਮਦ੝ ਪੀਆ ॥ ਬਿਨ੝ ਗ੝ਰ ਭਗਤਿ ਨਾਹੀ ਸ੝ਖ੝ ਥੀਆ ॥੪॥ (SGGS p832)

    He may wear a clean loin-cloth, apply the ceremonial mark to his forehead, and wear a mala around his neck; but if there is anger within him, he is merely reading his part, like an actor in a play. Forgetting the Naam, the Name of the Lord, he drinks in the wine of Maya. Without devotional worship to the Guru, there is no peace. ||4||
  3. ਸਾਲ ਗ੝ਰਾਮ ਬਿਪ ਪੂਜਿ ਮਨਾਵਹ੝ ਸ੝ਕ੝ਰਿਤ੝ ਤ੝ਲਸੀ ਮਾਲਾ ॥ ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮ੝ ਜਪਿ ਬੇੜਾ ਬਾਂਧਹ੝ ਦਇਆ ਕਰਹ੝ ਦਇਆਲਾ ॥੧॥

    O Brahmin, you worship and believe in your stone-god, and wear your ceremonial rosary beads. Chant the Name of the Lord. Build your boat, and pray, "O Merciful Lord, please be merciful to me."||1||
  4. ਮਾਥੇ ਤਿਲਕ੝ ਹਥਿ ਮਾਲਾ ਬਾਨਾਂ ॥ ਲੋਗਨ ਰਾਮ੝ ਖਿਲਉਨਾ ਜਾਨਾਂ ॥੧॥ ਜਉ ਹਉ ਬਉਰਾ ਤਉ ਰਾਮ ਤੋਰਾ ॥ ਲੋਗ੝ ਮਰਮ੝ ਕਹ ਜਾਨੈ ਮੋਰਾ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ ਤੋਰਉ ਨ ਪਾਤੀ ਪੂਜਉ ਨ ਦੇਵਾ ॥ ਰਾਮ ਭਗਤਿ ਬਿਨ੝ ਨਿਹਫਲ ਸੇਵਾ ॥੨॥ ਸਤਿਗ੝ਰ੝ ਪੂਜਉ ਸਦਾ ਸਦਾ ਮਨਾਵਉ ॥ (SGGS p1158)

    Some apply ceremonial marks to their foreheads, hold malas in their hands, and wear religious robes. Some people think that the Lord is a play-thing. ||1|| If I am insane, then I am Yours, O Lord. How can people know my secret? ||1||Pause|| I do not pick leaves as offerings, and I do not worship idols. Without devotional worship of the Lord, service is useless. ||2|| I worship the True Guru; forever and ever, I surrender to Him.
  5. ਕਬੀਰ ਬੈਸਨੋ ਹੂਆ ਤ ਕਿਆ ਭਇਆ ਮਾਲਾ ਮੇਲੀਂ ਚਾਰਿ ॥ ਬਾਹਰਿ ਕੰਚਨ੝ ਬਾਰਹਾ ਭੀਤਰਿ ਭਰੀ ਭੰਗਾਰ ॥੧੪੫॥ ਕਬੀਰ ਰੋੜਾ ਹੋਇ ਰਹ੝ ਬਾਟ ਕਾ ਤਜਿ ਮਨ ਕਾ ਅਭਿਮਾਨ੝ ॥ ਝਸਾ ਕੋਈ ਦਾਸ੝ ਹੋਇ ਤਾਹਿ ਮਿਲੈ ਭਗਵਾਨ੝ ॥੧੪੬॥ ਕਬੀਰ ਰੋੜਾ ਹੂਆ ਤ ਕਿਆ ਭਇਆ ਪੰਥੀ ਕਉ ਦ੝ਖ੝ ਦੇਇ ॥ ਝਸਾ ਤੇਰਾ ਦਾਸ੝ ਹੈ ਜਿਉ ਧਰਨੀ ਮਹਿ ਖੇਹ ॥੧੪੭॥ ਕਬੀਰ ਖੇਹ ਹੂਈ ਤਉ ਕਿਆ ਭਇਆ ਜਉ ਉਡਿ ਲਾਗੈ ਅੰਗ ॥ ਹਰਿ ਜਨ੝ ਝਸਾ ਚਾਹੀਝ ਜਿਉ ਪਾਨੀ ਸਰਬੰਗ ॥੧੪੮॥ ਕਬੀਰ ਪਾਨੀ ਹੂਆ ਤ ਕਿਆ ਭਇਆ ਸੀਰਾ ਤਾਤਾ ਹੋਇ ॥ ਹਰਿ ਜਨ੝ ਝਸਾ ਚਾਹੀਝ ਜੈਸਾ ਹਰਿ ਹੀ ਹੋਇ ॥੧੪੯॥

    Kabeer, what good is it to become a devotee of Vishnu, and wear four malas? On the outside, he may look like pure gold, but on the inside, he is stuffed with dust. ||145|| Kabeer, let yourself be a pebble on the path; abandon your egotistical pride. Such a humble slave shall meet the Lord God. ||146||\ Kabeer, what good would it be, to be a pebble? It would only hurt the traveller on the path. Your slave, O Lord, is like the dust of the earth. ||147|| Kabeer, what then, if one could become dust? It is blown up by the wind, and sticks to the body. The humble servant of the Lord should be like water, which cleans everything. ||148|| Kabeer, what then, if one could become water? It becomes cold, then hot The humble servant of the Lord should be just like the Lord. ||149||
  6. Now let us ask Guru Nanak , he in fact asks us, and then answers:-

    ਕਿਵ ਸਚਿਆਰਾ ਹੋਈਝ ਕਿਵ ਕੂੜੈ ਤ੝ਟੈ ਪਾਲ॥ ਹ੝ਕਮ ਰਜਾਈ ਚਲਣਾ ਨਾਨਕ ਲਿਖਿਆ ਨਾਲਿ॥

    How could one become Truthful (Sachiara)? How could one get rid of ignorance and falsehood? “ By living in harmony with the Divine Law (Hukam),” asserts Nanak. The primary objective of human life is to become a Sachiara ie. God like....(this off course does not need Mala)
Also, I have seen people who use Mala, there primary motive is to recite Naam (there can be another debate on what is Naam?, as most of the people just take it as the literary meaning - Name of lord etc. ) and then count. It often leads to either show-off that the person is doing to the world of his/her being religious or is a "sauda" (business) with the God by calculating how many times one has taken the lords name. Both these are clearly not what Sikhism teaches. Gurmat tells show-off is useless and it also tells that we cannot do "saudey" with the lord. NOTE: The english translations, except the last one, are taken from www.srigranth.org. Though I do not normally use these direct word to word translations without "vyakhaya" (detailed explanations) I had do it today as due to lack of time.A. S. Aulakh Talk 18:35, 9 February 2007 (MST)
  • Respected Aulakh Ji,

Tuks from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji should be used to derive meaning as per context in which these have been written.If i use first tuk reference given by you ਪੜਿ ਪ੝ਸਤਕ ਸੰਧਿਆ ਬਾਦੰ You read your books and say your prayers, and then engage in debate to mean that in Sri Guru Granth Sahib reading books and engaging ibn debate is a forbidden practice it would be an erroneous meaning.A practice as such may not be wrong but a purpose for which that practice has been used may be maligned;action of using that practice for a maligned purpose it is that which need be criticised or discouraged.Ther are thousands of images of Guru Nank Dev ji in several sikh homes,on several sikh sites which carry mala around gUru Ji's neck.Even image loaded by Hari Singh ji at sikhiwiki site about Guru Nanak dev Ji in that very article carries mala around Guru Ji's neck.So to my mind discussion on this topic is futile exercise and we should utilize our time in some more creative activity rather than wasting on this subject.Kind regards --Guglani 21:09, 11 February 2007 (MST)