Talk:Guru Granth Sahib on meat

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Revision as of 18:06, 16 July 2007 by A. S. Aulakh (talk | contribs) (→‎Misuse of Gurbani against meat eating: editing for some spellings etc.)
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akhan jor chupyy nhe jor.....

....tyra bhana meetha lagy...naam pdarath....( not NAAM) pdarath nanak mangy...
...paap punn dou eyk smaan
...baba oh na mangiyy fir mangan jaiyy.....
...nanak (sirf) sachy ko (he) sach (IDOL of TRUTH) jaan....
...jy manniaa ta manniyy, (par) bujheeyy gur parsaad....
...jyyse myy avyy kasam kee bani tyysda karo vichaar o Siko!
  • Through the Day Sach (read 'Rabb dee Bhasha Bani') Sikhao'.
  • Through the heart Beats & BreathsSach (read 'Rabb dee bhasha' vich rabb (read Humanity) kolon akhar, lag, tuk, pangte 'jan bujh ky' (on purpose) ya 'ianypan dy karan' (inadvertantly) galat samjan aty smjhaan dee koshish karan de muafee Mango.

Man vich Socho, vicharo aty NAAM (read 'Bani') de 'Sikhlaee lyyn da' aty 'Sikhlaee dyn' da treeka sudharo.

ih hee Sachee 'Nanak Brand' dee Sikhi Hyy. Sikhi. da ikk hee brand hyy jyhda schy Sikh. hon da certificate hyy


...Gur myry sang sada hyy naly..... ...sab ty uttam gur shabad veechaar.....

ਸਲੋਕ੝ ਮਃ ੩ ॥ 

ਹਉਮੈ ਜਲਤੇ ਜਲਿ ਮ੝ਝ ਭ੝ਰਮਿ ਆਝ ਦੂਜੈ ਭਾਇ ॥ ਪੂਰੈ ਸਤਿਗ੝ਰਿ ਰਾਖਿ ਲੀਝ ਆਪਣੈ ਪੰਨੈ ਪਾਇ ॥ ਇਹ੝ ਜਗ੝ ਜਲਤਾ ਨਦਰੀ ਆਇਆ ਗ੝ਰ ਕੈ ਸਬਦਿ ਸ੝ਭਾਇ ॥ ਸਬਦਿ ਰਤੇ ਸੇ ਸੀਤਲ ਭਝ ਨਾਨਕ ਸਚ੝ ਕਮਾਇ ॥੧॥

ਮਃ ੩ ॥

ਸਫਲਿਓ ਸਤਿਗ੝ਰ੝ ਸੇਵਿਆ ਧੰਨ੝ ਜਨਮ੝ ਪਰਵਾਣ੝ ॥ ਜਿਨਾ ਸਤਿਗ੝ਰ੝ ਜੀਵਦਿਆ ਮ੝ਇਆ ਨ ਵਿਸਰੈ ਸੇਈ ਪ੝ਰਖ ਸ੝ਜਾਣ ॥ ਕ੝ਲ੝ ਉਧਾਰੇ ਆਪਣਾ ਸੋ ਜਨ੝ ਹੋਵੈ ਪਰਵਾਣ੝ ॥ ਗ੝ਰਮ੝ਖਿ ਮ੝ਝ ਜੀਵਦੇ ਪਰਵਾਣ੝ ਹਹਿ ਮਨਮ੝ਖ ਜਨਮਿ ਮਰਾਹਿ ॥ ਨਾਨਕ ਮ੝ਝ ਨ ਆਖੀਅਹਿ ਜਿ ਗ੝ਰ ਕੈ ਸਬਦਿ ਸਮਾਹਿ ॥੨॥

ਪਉੜੀ ॥

ਹਰਿ ਪ੝ਰਖ੝ ਨਿਰੰਜਨ੝ ਸੇਵਿ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮ੝ ਧਿਆਈਝ ॥ ਸਤਸੰਗਤਿ ਸਾਧੂ ਲਗਿ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮਿ ਸਮਾਈਝ ॥ ਹਰਿ ਤੇਰੀ ਵਡੀ ਕਾਰ ਮੈ ਮੂਰਖ ਲਾਈਝ ॥ ਹਉ ਗੋਲਾ ਲਾਲਾ ਤ੝ਧ੝ ਮੈ ਹ੝ਕਮ੝ ਫ੝ਰਮਾਈਝ ॥ ਹਉ ਗ੝ਰਮ੝ਖਿ ਕਾਰ ਕਮਾਵਾ ਜਿ ਗ੝ਰਿ ਸਮਝਾਈਝ ॥੨॥


Based on my faith in nothing but SatGurBani & IDOLS of TRUTH; by the grace of SatGurBani I stand ordained by SatGurBani to humbly not only submit, but demonstrate as well, my TRUE sentiments(read Sentiments & spirit of Nanak alias Gurbani). Sentiments before TRUTH god (read Humanity) against scralicage of [[Gurbani] by no other than those who call themselves Sikh.s

  • All Mutias whole heartedly support every full stop & comma written by Nanak's pen below by SACHIARYY Kha User:A. S. Aulakh Sahib with the TRUE spirit of pavan Mahavaak akhan jor chupyy nhee jor....
  • Feel pained about the comments / remarks which 'Wiki' brand of Sikhi, being projected on SikhiWiki, has earned on other web sites. One of them I came accross are on the article titled Langar. My humble support for all the TRUE Sikh.s who, when could not sail on Sikhiwiki, decided to speak TRUTH on a site other than SikhiWiki.
  • Nanak's pavan & Khalsai (.....thanks to Luckyji & Kakkajee for sharing the joy of crafting this Khandion tikha ty balon nikka word......) words ....Akhan jor is...... blossoming not on SikhiWiki but on other web sites, speaks volumes of unspoken TRUTHs.
  • O Nanak! kurbaan tyry .....bda (tyra) desh (aty) bd raaj...

Sikhi. of Nanak Brand dumped on Talk Page

TRUE Sikhi. of the NAAM JAAN , NAAM ISHNAAN & NAAM ISHNAAN brand (read Nanak brand) having nothing to hold against most favorite agenda of SikhiWiki ie Meat eating being sin of the worst kind

stands rejected & moved to Talk Page without extending any reason what so ever.

No One has Time for Sikh Issues

Truth is easier to distort but 'Tatti tavee' to go by

Sikhi of 'Wiki' Brand Graces Main Articles

Misinterpreted & Distorted Gurbani Tuks grace an article titled SGGS on meat
( I am sacrifice to Sachiary Aulakh Sahib & all those Sikhs who have dedicated Themselves to seva of no brand but .....SatGur Ke Syva...)
I stand by .....vaad vivaad kahoo sy nahi... & do not seek redressal for my pains eminating from 'Wiki '. I further stand ordained by satGurBani to humbly withdraw from this discussion best defined in Gurbani as ....

.....chhapad dhundy kia milyy chikkad libbd hath. ......bin bolian sab kuj janda kis aagy....

Painfully yours O TRUTH god! give me the strength to identify your TRUE IDOLs User:Mutia 170707

Misuse of Gurbani against meat eating

Some of the Gurbani has been misrepresented by people at various forums by just picking a few incomplete lines and then doing word to word translation to English without explaining properly the context. I keep re-iterating that without knowing Gurbani related history and understanding the context in which it was said, to whom it was said and in what conditions it is not possible to understand the true message of Gurbani.

At many places the following lines have been presented to support argument against meat eating. In reality, they are not referring to meat eating.

1. ਜੀਅ ਬਧਹ੝ ਸ੝ ਧਰਮ੝ ਕਰਿ ਥਾਪਹ੝ ਅਧਰਮ੝ ਕਹਹ੝ ਕਤ ਭਾਈ ॥ ਆਪਸ ਕਉ ਮ੝ਨਿਵਰ ਕਰਿ ਥਾਪਹ੝ ਕਾ ਕਉ ਕਹਹ੝ ਕਸਾਈ
2. ਜੇ ਰਤ੝ ਲਗੈ ਕਪੜੈ ਜਾਮਾ ਹੋਇ ਪਲੀਤ੝ ॥ ਜੋ ਰਤ੝ ਪੀਵਿਹ ਮਾਣਸਾ ਤਿਨ ਕਿਉਨਿਰਮਲ੝ ਚੀਤ੝ ॥
3. ਬੇਦ੝ ਪੜੈ ਮ੝ਖਿ ਮੀਠੀ ਬਾਣੀ ॥ ਜੀਆਂ ਕ੝ਹਤ ਨ ਸੰਗੈ ਪਰਾਣੀ ॥
4. ਬਾਬਾ ਹੋਰ੝ ਖਾਣਾ ਖ੝ਸੀ ਖ੝ਆਰ੝ ॥ ਜਿਤ੝ ਖਾਧੈ ਤਨ੝ ਪੀੜੀਝ ਮਨ ਮਿਹ ਚਲਿਹ ਵਿਕਾਰ ॥

Now please note where these lines were said and in what context. To get the whole picture yours truly is also including the lines adjacent to the above lines in Gurbani in the form of paragraphs rather than picking just a line or two.

• The 1st line above has been taken from: -

ਰਾਗ੝ ਮਾਰੂ ਬਾਣੀ ਕਬੀਰ ਜੀਉ ਕੀ ੴ ਸਤਿਗ੝ਰ ਪ੝ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥ ਪਡੀਆ ਕਵਨ ਕ੝ਮਤਿ ਤ੝ਮ ਲਾਗੇ ॥ ਬੂਡਹ੝ਗੇ ਪਰਵਾਰ ਸਕਲ ਸਿਉ ਰਾਮ੝ ਨ ਜਪਹ੝ ਅਭਾਗੇ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ ਬੇਦ ਪ੝ਰਾਨ ਪੜੇ ਕਾ ਕਿਆ ਗ੝ਨ੝ ਖਰ ਚੰਦਨ ਜਸ ਭਾਰਾ ॥ ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮ ਕੀ ਗਤਿ ਨਹੀ ਜਾਨੀ ਕੈਸੇ ਉਤਰਸਿ ਪਾਰਾ ॥੧॥ ਜੀਅ ਬਧਹ੝ ਸ੝ ਧਰਮ੝ ਕਰਿ ਥਾਪਹ੝ ਅਧਰਮ੝ ਕਹਹ੝ ਕਤ ਭਾਈ ॥ ਆਪਸ ਕਉ ਮ੝ਨਿਵਰ ਕਰਿ ਥਾਪਹ੝ ਕਾ ਕਉ ਕਹਹ੝ ਕਸਾਈ ॥੨॥ਮਨ ਕੇ ਅੰਧੇ ਆਪਿ ਨ ਬੂਝਹ੝ ਕਾਹਿ ਬ੝ਝਾਵਹ੝ ਭਾਈ ॥ ਮਾਇਆ ਕਾਰਨ ਬਿਦਿਆ ਬੇਚਹ੝ ਜਨਮ੝ ਅਬਿਰਥਾ ਜਾਈ ॥੩॥ ਨਾਰਦ ਬਚਨ ਬਿਆਸ੝ ਕਹਤ ਹੈ ਸ੝ਕ ਕਉ ਪੂਛਹ੝ ਜਾਈ ॥ ਕਹਿ ਕਬੀਰ ਰਾਮੈ ਰਮਿ ਛੂਟਹ੝ ਨਾਹਿ ਤ ਬੂਡੇ ਭਾਈ ॥੪॥੧॥ {ਪੰਨਾ 1102-1103}

At this place Bhagat Kabir was questioning the pandits at the place near Kashi where there was tradition of performing the sacrifices of animals and also of humans at one point of time. In addition to challenging their shallow knowledge, Kabir is challenging the pandits here of their dual-policies as well. He is telling them-

"On one hand you people(the pandits) call the meat-sellers as sinnners and on the other hand you yourself are performing the "bali" (sacrifice of animal or human). How can you have such dual policies?. If you can perform the "bali" and yet like to be called as best sages then how can the meat-sellers be sinners??"

This argument of Bhagat Kabir ji seems more like ridiculing the hypocrisies of the pandits than ridiculing the meat eater. To understand the meaning of the Gurbani just one line is not enough. One has to also understand where,with whom and in what context the speaker was speaking. This talk from Kabir ji was related to the pandits of Kashi, their shallow knowledge, "bali" and hypocrisies, not about eating or not-eating meat.

• The 2nd line above has been taken from: -

ਜੇ ਰਤ੝ ਲਗੈ ਕਪੜੈ ਜਾਮਾ ਹੋਇ ਪਲੀਤ੝ ॥ ਜੋ ਰਤ੝ ਪੀਵਿਹ ਮਾਣਸਾ ਤਿਨ ਕਿਉਨਿਰਮਲ੝ ਚੀਤ੝ ॥ ਨਾਨਕ ਨਾਉ ਖ੝ਦਾਇ ਕਾ ਦਿਲ ਹਛੈ ਮ੝ਖਿ ਲੇਹ੝ ॥ ਅਵਿਰ ਦਿਵਾਜੇ ਦ੝ਨੀ ਕੇ ਝੂਠ ਅਮਲ ਕਰੇਹ੝ ॥੧॥{ਪੰਨਾ 140}

These lines have been said in context to those who do "namaaj" but whose hearts are not clear/pure and they trouble other humans. The meaning here is,

"Its believed that if the jama (worn clothes) get tarnished with blood one cannot do namaaj. How can those people be untarnished (pure) who earn by illegitimate means and oppress others humans?. O Nanak! remember the Almighty with a pure heart all other external showcasing is useless"

In Punjabi, metaphorically speaking we say, "Mera khoon na choos"- it means "Do not irritate/trouble me". Similarly, the phrase in Gurbani above is a metaphorical use of the phrase "jo ruth peevehi maanusaa" and does not mean that someone was actually drinking human blood.

• The 3rd line above has been taken from:-

ਗਉੜੀ ਮਹਲਾ ੫ ॥ ਧੋਤੀ ਖੋਲਿ ਵਿਛਾਝ ਹੇਠਿ ॥ ਗਰਧਪ ਵਾਂਗੂ ਲਾਹੇ ਪੇਟਿ ॥੧॥ ਬਿਨ੝ ਕਰਤੂਤੀ ਮ੝ਕਿਤ ਨ ਪਾਈਝ ॥ ਮ੝ਕਿਤ ਪਦਾਰਥ੝ ਨਾਮ੝ ਧਿਆਈਝ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ ਪੂਜਾ ਤਿਲਕ ਕਰਤ ਇਸਨਾਨ ॥ ਛ੝ਰੀ ਕਾਢਿ ਲੇਵੈ ਹਿਥ ਦਾਨਾ ॥੨॥ ਬੇਦ੝ ਪੜੈ ਮ੝ਖਿ ਮੀਠੀ ਬਾਣੀ ॥ ਜੀਆਂ ਕ੝ਹਤ ਨ ਸੰਗੈ ਪਰਾਣੀ ॥੩॥ ਕਹ੝ ਨਾਨਕ ਜਿਸ੝ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਧਾਰੈ ॥ ਹਿਰਦਾ ਸ੝ਧ੝ ਬ ਹਮ੝ ਬੀਚਾਰੈ ॥੪॥੧੦੭॥{ਪੰਨਾ 201}

This talk is on the pandits who eat from their "yajmaan" (the host or the follower?). The meaning is -

"The pandits go to the home of their followers/hosts and open half of their "dhoti" (cloth worn for lower half of body) and spread it on the ground and sit and eat there like a donkey. He applies "tilak" (mark on forehead) and takes bath and perform "pooja" (a form of worshiping where the idols etc. are worshipped). He eats from his host but does not think once while betraying the same host by misguiding him by telling lies about heaven and hell and frightening them. From his mouth, the pandit pretends speaking very sweet and speaks of vedas, but from the inside he is a cheat and never feels ashamed of betraying his host. O Nanak! the one who has been blessed by the Almighty that person remembers the Almighty from his heart"

• The 4rth line above has been taken from:-

ਸਿਰੀਰਾਗ੝ ਮਹਲਾ ੧ ॥ ਸਿਭ ਰਸ ਮਿਠ ਮੰਨਿਝ ਸ੝ਣਿਝ ਸਾਲੋਣੇ ॥ ਖਟ ਤ੝ਰਸੀ ਮ੝ਖਿ ਬੋਲਣਾ ਮਾਰਣ ਨਾਦ ਕੀਝ ॥ ਛਤੀਹ ਅੰਮ੝ਰਿਤ ਭਾਉ ਝਕ੝ ਜਾ ਕਉ ਨਦਿਰ ਕਰੇਇ ॥੧॥ ਬਾਬਾ ਹੋਰ੝ ਖਾਣਾ ਖ੝ਸੀ ਖ੝ਆਰ੝ ॥ ਜਿਤ੝ ਖਾਧੈ ਤਨ੝ ਪੀੜੀਝ ਮਨ ਮਿਹ ਚਲਿਹ ਵਿਕਾਰ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ {ਪੰਨਾ 16-17}

This whole para is metaphorical and is telling what is the ideal food for thought. Here the remembrance of Almighty is compared with all the tastes of the world. Its mentioned that living life according to Gurus knowledge you feel like having all the dishes and then later it is mentioned that other "dishes" which cause disease of the body and mind are bad. What could be other (antonym) of "Guru's Knowledge"? -clearly, "manmatt". I see no reference to meat eating here.

Translation :-

"If mind gets involved in the remembrance of the Almighty, then it is like all the sweet dishes of the world. If the conscience becomes one with the Almighty, then it is like salty dish. Speaking of the knowledge of the Guru from mouth is like a sour dish. The appreciation of Almighty and singing of his orders is like spices. Uniform love for Almighty is like dishes of various tastes that you can think of. But this great gift is only won by those who get blessings of the Almighty. Oh Beloved! those feedings cause destruction whose eating causes diseases in the body and mind."

And now please note the lines from Gurbani that have been said various times and still people fail to understand:

ਪਾਂਡੇ ਤੂ ਜਾਣੈ ਹੀ ਨਾਹੀ ਕਿਥਹ੝ ਮਾਸ੝ ਉਪੰਨਾ ॥ ਤੋਇਅਹ੝ ਅੰਨ੝ ਕਮਾਦ੝ ਕਪਾਹਾਂ ਤੋਇਅਹ੝ ਤ੝ਰਿਭਵਣ੝ ਗੰਨਾ ॥

O Pandit, you do not know where did flesh originate! It is water where life originated and it is water that sustains all life. It is water that produces grains, sugarcane, cotton and all forms of life.

AGGS, M 1, p 1289.*

ਮਾਸ੝ ਮਾਸ੝ ਕਰਿ ਮੂਰਖ੝ ਝਗੜੇ ਗਿਆਨ੝ ਧਿਆਨ੝ ਨਹੀ ਜਾਣੈ ॥ ਕਉਣ੝ ਮਾਸ੝ ਕਉਣ੝ ਸਾਗ੝ ਕਹਾਵੈ ਕਿਸ੝ ਮਹਿ ਪਾਪ ਸਮਾਣੇ ॥

"Only fools quarrel over the partaking of flesh, as they do not have knowledge and understanding of the subject? what is flesh and what is vegetable? Why the eating of one is sin, not the eating of the other as both are obtained from living things?"


Why is it so hard to understand? Gurbani is very clear about this issue. Nobody will be a sinner just because he/she ate meat. Water is the source of life on this earth and you drink water everyday, it also has life. Vegetation also has life. If you are thinking one life is greater then other then you are wrong. Also, Gurbani does not tell you that by eating meat you will become a better Sikh. It clearly says that lust of anything is wrong. The summary is very simple - meat eating is neither encouraged nor discouraged in Sikhism. If you need it, eat it. If you feel bad eating it, just don't eat it but don't call others as less Sikhs. Just by eating or not-eating meat you cannot be one with the Akaal.


--A. S. Aulakh Talk 15:15, 15 July 2007 (EDT)

However, let us remember that to begin with, SGGS has placed emphasis on three foundation aspects of life - ie

This set of three fundamental holy concepts being the very root of Sikhism & all other Gurmat Principles, it is very important for every sikh & the Sikh Panth(society) to see these as the basic issues which encompasses all other important issues guiding the Sikh way of life in today's fast changing times.

Pauri of Bhai Gurdas to Include

‘An elephant’s flesh is not edible for he is full of pride, The lion is also full of pride of its strength so no one eats it either, Humble is the goat it gains honor in the here after and this world, In all celebrations is it [the meat], acknowledged, It [the meat], sanctifies religious gatherings and feasts, Its meat is ‘Pavitar’ [good/sacred] for the householder, From its entrails [tendons] is string for instruments made that when they play, attracts holy men in meditation From it’s skin are shoes made, which holy feet wear as they go to seek holy protection [to Guru]. With its skin are bound drums with which ‘Kirtan’ [religious songs], are sung, Hence, they [goat-skin bound drums] give great comfort. The holy gathering is coming into the Guru’s protection.’ (Bhai Gurdas Ji’s Varan, Bhai Gurdas, ‘Vaar 23, Pauri 13’)

Thanks

Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji First, and then Bhai Gurdas

That should be the order. All shabads are equally important. So please put the Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji first and then put Bhai Gurdas. Bhai Gurdas maybe the key, but Bhai Gurdas would have nothing to open if the Sri Guru Granth Sahib didn't exist. It is like putting the "cart before the horse".

Without the key the lock cannot be opened

I understand what you say about Gurbani and agree that Gurbani has more importance than Bhai Gurdas ji's Varan but I think the Varan have a special place for Sikhism because Guru Sahib himself particularly called the Varan the key to Gurbani - to me it means that without the key, the lock (Gurbani) cannot be unlocked. In my opinion, you need this key to unlock the mysteries of Gurbani. And that is why I have put it first.

The key comes first so that the reader is in possession of the key before he or she approaches the lock (ie: Gurbani) so that they can open this lock with ease and do not have any hindrance.

I hope you agree – but if you don't then I will bow to your request in this instance as it is more important that we have a little bit of "give and take" in these matters. Please feel free to change the position of the Varan to after the Shabads or just let me know and I will change the position.

Many thanks for your huge amount of time and dedication, input and help in promoting the divine message of our Guru. --Hari Singh 14:42, 13 August 2006 (CDT)

You Need to Make The Decision

Outsiders may get the impression that Bhai Gurdas's Varan are more important to Sikhs than the Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji. The rest I leave to you.

Making Changes to an Article:

Please do not change the layout on any article without first discussing it on the talk page of the article. Once the discussion has taken place, the decision will be made as to change or not change the layout or content of that page. Some users have spent many months working on this project and it is unfair for a newcomer to join and start making dramatic changes to these articles. Please respect and give thought to the other contributors, who may have spent a lot of time on this project. Regarding the article SGGS on Meat and other topics which are Controversial the following applies:

Controversial Topic

As this is a "Controversial Topic", strict rules apply as to what can be put on pages dealing with this topic and the changes that can be made. The creation of new pages is not allowed until the existing pages have grown to a reasonable size. Please discuss matters here before you do anything to this page.

Controlled Page

The SGGS on Meat is purely a page for Gurbani and other recognised texts – ie Bhai Gurdas' Varan, etc. This is a "Controlled Page" and strictly no other text is allowed apart from a "controlled introduction" which cannot be changed. So please only add recognised Gurbani text and verified translations. No other text will be allowed without first discussing the matter.

Supporting Pages

As an off-shoot of the "Controlled Page", we have the Vegetarianism and Vegetarianism Other Views pages. These are called the "Supporting Pages". These are the pages where the differing opinions have to be stated. Most users will only be able to change these pages provided the changes are first discussed. Each of these pages should just deal with the views, opinions and research to do with the opinion being supported. ie: Normally this would be the title of the page. References and historic records must be given wherever an opinion is stated or needed. If these references are not given, after warnings, these views will be removed. Links to other websites may not be sufficient as anyone can now set up a website and state their personally views/historic record. We require support from Gurbani, Bhai Gurdas Varan, recorded historical material or historical books with the necessary research to establish the authenticity of the material.

I would ask you to co-operate with this policy so that we can provide a credible view of Sikhism to the public. If you have any queries, please do not hesitate to put them on my user page.

Many thanks in anticipation. (--talk) Hari Singh 07:37, 12 August 2006 (CDT)

EATING

SGGS Page 467 Full Shabad

Unnin Mandy payr nan rakhio......... Darpan Pg0467-
They do not place their feet in sin, but do good deeds and live righteously in Dharma. They burn away the bonds of the world, and eat a simple diet of grain and water.

SGGS quotations ONLY

Please note that all statements on this article SGGS on Meat MUST be supported by tuks from SGGS or other historical records or sources otherwise the added material will be instantly removed. If you continue to misuse the edit facility, you will be barred from making changes. --Hari Singh 16:12, 27 July 2006 (CDT)

"gaibaan haivaan haraam kustanee murdaar bakhoraa-ay" AND "murdar"

SGGS Page 723 Full Shabad
ਬੰਦੇ ਚਸਮ ਦੀਦੰ ਫਨਾਇ ॥

ਦ੝ਨਂ”ੀਆ ਮ੝ਰਦਾਰ ਖ੝ਰਦਨੀ ਗਾਫਲ ਹਵਾਇ ॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
ਗੈਬਾਨ ਹੈਵਾਨ ਹਰਾਮ ਕ੝ਸਤਨੀ ਮ੝ਰਦਾਰ ਬਖੋਰਾਇ ॥
ਦਿਲ ਕਬਜ ਕਬਜਾ ਕਾਦਰੋ ਦੋਜਕ ਸਜਾਇ ॥੨॥

banday chasam deedaN fanaa-ay.
duneeN-aa murdaar khurdanee gaafal havaa-ay. rahaa-o.
gaibaan haivaan haraam kustanee murdaar bakhoraa-ay.
dil kabaj kabjaa kaadro dojak sajaa-ay. ((2))

O human being, whatever you can see with your eyes, shall perish.
The world eats dead carcasses, living by neglect and greed. ((Pause))
Like a goblin, or a beast, they kill and eat the forbidden carcasses of meat.
So control your urges, or else you will be seized by the Lord, and thrown into the tortures of hell.
((2))


The above line says "Haraam" (impure) to which the opposite is "Halaal"(pure). "Murdar" does not mean kill, as in refrence to animals. Murdar is only used in refrences to human death. I think this lines with refrence to this and diet should be removed from this page. (posted by NeutralObserver on 5 August 2006 at 12:45)


Reply by HS to NeutralObserver

Dear NeutralObserver,

Many thanks for your valued contribution. I have added the link to the Shabad so we all know what we are talking about.

I agree with your observation that "haraam" is almost "impure" although I would have said forbidden, sinful and that this is opposite to "halal" which in one context does mean pure/legal but it can nowadays also mean "killed /slaughtered" subject to the muslim way.


I have carried out a search via Srigranth.org and 2 dictionaries for the word Murdaa and Murdaar. I list my results below. I am sorry that this does not appear to support your view that a Murdaa only refers to a human dead body. Unfortunately, it appears to support the view that a Murdaa is any dead body

Please note the translation of the word "murdaar" from

  • 1 Srigranth.org
  • 2 Dictionary of Guru Granth Sahib by Surinder Singh Kohli
  • 3 Punjabi - English English - Punjabi Dictionary by Krishan Kumar Goswami


  • from 1: SGGS Gurmukhi-Gurmukhi Dictionary: ਲੋਥ ਤ੝ਲ ਅਵਿਤਰ ਵਸਤ, ਹਰਾਮ
  • from 1 & 2 (p233): SGGS Gurmukhi-English Dictionary: Per. n. Corpse, dead body, corrion

SGGS Gurmukhi-English Data provided by Harjinder Singh Gill, Santa Monica, CA, USA.

  • from 1: English Translation: Dead. Exhumation.
  • from 3 (p286): Murdaa - Corpse, dead body, carcass, Lifeless, Deceased
Murdaar Lifeless, dead


  • from 1: Mahan Kosh Encyclopedia ਫ਼ਾ. __ ਲੋਥ. ਸ਼ਵ. ਪ੝ਰਾਣ ਰਹਿਤ ਦੇਹ। ੨. ਸ੝ਵਸਤਕਾਰ ਅਤੇ ਸ਼ੂਰਵੀਰਤਾ ਰਹਿਤ. “ਅੰਧੀ ਰਯਤਿ ਗਿਆਨ ਵਿਹੂਣੀ ਭਾਹਿ ਭਰੇ ਮ੝ਰਦਾਰ੝”. (ਵਾਰ ਆਸਾ) ਭੋਹ (ਭੂਸੇ) ਨਾਲ ਭਰੀਆਂ ਲੇਖਾਂ। ੩. ਭਾਵ ਮ੝ਰਦਾਰ ਤੱਲ ਅਪਵਿਤ੝ਰ ਚੀਜ਼. ਧਰਮ ਅਨ੝ਸਾਰ ਨਾ ਖਾਣ ਯੋਗ੝ਯ. ਹਰਾਮ. “ਕੂੜ੝ ਬੋਲਿ ਮ੝ਰਦਾਰ੝ ਖਾਇ”. (ਮਃ ੧. ਵਾਰ ਮਾਝ) “ਦ੝ਨੀਆ ਮ੝ਰਦਾਰਖ੝ਰਦਨੀ”. (ਤਿਲੰ ਮਃ ੫) “ਠਗਿ ਖਾਧਾ ਮ੝ਰਦਾਰ੝”. (ਸ੝ਰੀ ਮਃ ੧).

Mahan Kosh data provided by Bhai Baljinder Singh (RaraSahib Wale); See http://www.ik13.com


Please refer to the Shabad given below and see what you think? - Only 2 lines quoted, but please click on the link to see the whole of the Shabad. Please give me your view of each lines.

SGGS Page 141 Full Shabad
ਹਕ੝ ਪਰਾਇਆ ਨਾਨਕਾ ਉਸ੝ ਸੂਅਰ ਉਸ੝ ਗਾਇ ॥ ਗ੝ਰ੝ ਪੀਰ੝ ਹਾਮਾ ਤਾ ਭਰੇ ਜਾ ਮ੝ਰਦਾਰ੝ ਨ ਖਾਇ ॥

hak paraa-i-aa naankaa us soo-ar us gaa-ay. gur peer haamaa taa bharay jaa murdaar na khaa-ay.

To take what rightfully belongs to another, is like a Muslim eating pork, or a Hindu eating beef.

Our Guru, our Spiritual Guide, stands by us, if we do not eat those carcasses.


I sorry that at present your evidence does not support warranting a change. Could you please explain further why you feel that this Shabad should not be under this section. I will be much obliged if you could explain to me exactly what message this Shabad conveys to you.

I appreciate your help and I hope we will come to an amicable understanding on this matter and that our difference here however large will not distract us from pursuing the higher goal of promoting Sikh values globally. Many thanks for your time and continued interest and support of the site. --Hari Singh 11:00, 5 August 2006 (CDT)


The Other Translation Is Different

On the same page the other translation is different:

ਮਃ ੧ ॥ मः १ ॥ mehlaa 1. First Guru!


ਹਕ੝ ਪਰਾਇਆ ਨਾਨਕਾ ਉਸ੝ ਸੂਅਰ ਉਸ੝ ਗਾਇ ॥ हकढ़ पराइआ नानका उसढ़ सूअर उसढ़ गाइ ॥ hak paraa-i-aa naankaa us soo-ar us gaa-ay. Nanak, another's right is swine for him (the Musalman) and cow for him (the Hindu).


ਗ੝ਰ੝ ਪੀਰ੝ ਹਾਮਾ ਤਾ ਭਰੇ ਜਾ ਮ੝ਰਦਾਰ੝ ਨ ਖਾਇ ॥ गढ़रढ़ पीरढ़ हामा ता भरे जा मढ़रदारढ़ न खाइ ॥ gur peer haamaa taa bharay jaa murdaar na khaa-ay. The spiritual guide and the prophet shall stand surety only then, if man eats not carrion.

Also I am puzzled as where the word "those" come from in "gur peer haamaa taa bharay jaa murdaar na khaa-ay"?

These translations need working on.

The Spirit Of The Shabad

The spirit of the shabad does not warrant itself in these cases to narrowly mean issue surrounding meat. If you wish to see what Guru Nanak's view then you should quote his shabad. I am sure you know which one I mean. -- NeutralObserver 09:44, 6 August 2006

Reply to "Spirit of the Shabad" by HS

I am all for supporting you in awakening the spirit of all Shabads in the SGGS and please accept that I do not want to narrow the meaning of Gurbani – My prime aim is foremost to learn the real meaning of each tuk of Gurbani – First at a "syntax" level and then moral level and ultimately at the spiritual level.

Please feel free to quote any Shabad that you wish as it can only be a help to the discussion – I am not sure which Shabad you mean, please give me the page number and I am sure I will see what you mean.

I hope you will accept that I am as keen as anyone else to learn the deeper meaning of the Guru's message but feel that it can only be done with a frank, open and unflustered positions on this issue. What I mean is that the fact that I don't eat meat now and someone else may eat meat, should not have an overriding impact on what we say; how we research a subject; what we present in a discussion; and our general attitude to how we say things, etc. Let us be frank and completely open and I am sure that the Guru will then guide us to the correct path.

If we are entrenched in our positions then that is Manmat – Let us together explore what our Gurus have said and then see if we can or cannot follow His word. We all accept that to keep Hair; not drink alcohol; not smoke; etc is Gurmat. Do we all follow these teachings – Well, obviously not. So, in the end why should someone who cannot follow these clear guidance be discussing this matter about whether meat is allowed or not allowed if they have not got the guts to follow all already clearly established issues that are totally accepted by the Panth.

Lets only discuss this matter if on coming to a conclusion, the participants will without fail follow the outcome of the discussion or have the intention of following the result of the discussion. If this is not so, then what is the point of the discussion? We have to have a balance between knowledge for the sake of knowledge and the principles to Gurmat. It is our duty to follow the word to the Guru once we know clearly what it is! --Hari Singh 16:16, 6 August 2006 (CDT)

Is This the Shabad Neutral Observer?

(For the complete Shabad - See Main article page or click on link to Srigranth.org)

SGGS Page 1289 Full Shabad
ਮਾਸ੝ ਮਾਸ੝ ਕਰਿ ਮੂਰਖ੝ ਝਗੜੇ ਗਿਆਨ੝ ਧਿਆਨ੝ ਨਹੀ ਜਾਣੈ ॥ ਕਉਣ੝ ਮਾਸ੝ ਕਉਣ੝ ਸਾਗ੝ ਕਹਾਵੈ ਕਿਸ੝ ਮਹਿ ਪਾਪ ਸਮਾਣੇ ॥

ਗੈਂਡਾ ਮਾਰਿ ਹੋਮ ਜਗ ਕੀਝ ਦੇਵਤਿਆ ਕੀ ਬਾਣੇ ॥ ਮਾਸ੝ ਛੋਡਿ ਬੈਸਿ ਨਕ੝ ਪਕੜਹਿ ਰਾਤੀ ਮਾਣਸ ਖਾਣੇ ॥

maas maas kar moorakh jhagrhay gi-aan Dhi-aan nahee jaanai. ka-un maas ka-un saag kahaavai kis meh paap samaanay.
gaiNdaa maar hom jag kee-ay dayviti-aa kee baanay. maas chhod bais nak pakrheh raatee maanas khaanay.

The fools argue about flesh and meat, but they know nothing about meditation and spiritual wisdom.
What is called meat, and what is called green vegetables? What leads to sin?

When Going To The Butchers

When going to the butchers, people do not order Corpse, dead body, corrion or Corpse, dead body, carcass, Lifeless, Deceased :

from 1: SGGS Gurmukhi-Gurmukhi Dictionary: ਲੋਥ ਤ੝ਲ ਅਵਿਤਰ ਵਸਤ, ਹਰਾਮ from 1 & 2 (p233): SGGS Gurmukhi-English Dictionary: Per. n. Corpse, dead body, corrion SGGS Gurmukhi-English Data provided by Harjinder Singh Gill, Santa Monica, CA, USA.

from 1: English Translation: Dead. Exhumation. from 3 (p286): Murdaa - Corpse, dead body, carcass, Lifeless, Deceased Murdaar Lifeless, dead

They may say "Maas" or "Flesh".

Murdaar is a word used in connection with human bodies. If a pile of dead goats was lying on the ground, people would not say "Mudaar" in refrence to them. If however dead bodies were lying there of human, people would refer to them as Murdaar. I suppose Murdaar is more of a respectful term and therfore used in conjuction with humans.

I don't know how else to explain it, but Murdaar in this context sounds very funny to me when I say it in Punjabi.

When Going To Vegetable Stand - Reply to Ridiculous

Hi Ridiculous

Point Number 1 Using a word in an Usual Situations

I don't think that your post really addresses the issue of the definition of the word because, for example, I would not go to a Veg-stand and ask for 2 kgs of Dead carrot" or "1 dozen dead apples", etc", would I? So your analogy goes not actually take us any further with the definition. So I agree that it sounds funny – But that is not how you check to see if the word's definition is correct. If you saw a dead cow in the lake, would you ask – Keya yaa Gaoo ka murdaa hai?


Point Number 2 More Dictionaries

The definition of the words is taken from renowned sources and must be deemed reliable. So the word Murdaa means Corpse, dead body, carcass, Lifeless, Deceased and the word Murdaar means Lifeless, dead

Further,

  • Dictionary at: this site gives the entry: P murdĝr [mur(dan), q.v.+dĝr = tĝr = Pehl. tar = Zend tar = S. तारढ़], s.m. A dead body, a corpse; a carcass;--carrion; a piece of carrion;--adj. Dead; impure, unclean, polluted; dirty; squalid; ugly; profane; obscene;--intj. You carrion! wretch! vile creature!:--murdĝr- ḵẖẉĝr, s.m. An eater of carrion; a carrion-crow; a vul- ture:--murdĝr-sang, vulg. murdĝ-sang, s.m. Dross of lead; protoxide of lead, litharge.
  • Dictionary at: this site gives the entry: murdah: P adj. dead/weak/decrepit
  • Dictionary at: this site gives the entry: Murdah - Dead, Decrepit, Lifeless, Weak, Wimp


Point Number 3 the Word "Murdaar" in Gurbani

In the Shabad below, the word "Murdaar" is used twice:

SGGS Page 723 Full Shabad
ਬੰਦੇ ਚਸਮ ਦੀਦੰ ਫਨਾਇ ॥

ਦ੝ਨਂ”ੀਆ ਮ੝ਰਦਾਰ ਖ੝ਰਦਨੀ ਗਾਫਲ ਹਵਾਇ ॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
ਗੈਬਾਨ ਹੈਵਾਨ ਹਰਾਮ ਕ੝ਸਤਨੀ ਮ੝ਰਦਾਰ ਬਖੋਰਾਇ ॥
ਦਿਲ ਕਬਜ ਕਬਜਾ ਕਾਦਰੋ ਦੋਜਕ ਸਜਾਇ ॥੨॥

banday chasam deedaN fanaa-ay.
duneeN-aa murdaar khurdanee gaafal havaa-ay. rahaa-o.
gaibaan haivaan haraam kustanee murdaar bakhoraa-ay.
dil kabaj kabjaa kaadro dojak sajaa-ay. ((2))

O human being, whatever you can see with your eyes, shall perish.
The world eats dead carcasses, living by neglect and greed. ((Pause))
Like a goblin, or a beast, they kill and eat the forbidden carcasses of meat.
So control your urges, or else you will be seized by the Lord, and thrown into the tortures of hell.
((2))

I think looking at the third line, Bani say: "Like a …beast – they kill & eat …" Surely, in most cases, beasts kill animal & eat them. In very few cases, would it be a human that would be killed by a beast. I hope you agree with this statement.


Conclusion

I think we can say with confidence that the word "Mudaa" mean Corpse, dead body, carcass, Lifeless, Deceased

--Hari Singh


Let us Sikhs glorify nothing in any way ever, but LORD TRUTH. Amost the entire Non- Sikh population, at least in India, as it is doing enough to profess that No 1 sin in this universe is 'eating meat' & only route to realise GOD is vegetarianism. Let us Spread the Word of nothing but NAAM(Live Truthfull life & draw sustinance fron nothing but TRUE IDEAs ie Satgur/Shabad/Guru/SGGS ,DAAN(Share TRUTH & TRUE IDEAs) & ISHNAAN Teach no one but our own self.

--Amita Singh

Can We Have The Entire Pauri 17 (She Goat)?

Here is Pauri from:

Page 104 Dr Jodh Singh - Varan Bhai Gurdas

'A goat was caught by a lion and while about to die, it gave out a horse laugh. The surprised lion asked why it was so happy at such a moment (of its death). Humbly the goat replied that the testicles of our male progeny are crushed in oder to castrate them. We eat only wild plants of arid regions yet our skin is peeled and pounded. I think about the plight of those (like you) who cut the throat of others and eat their flesh. The body of both the proud and the humble will become dust ultimately, but, even the body of the arrogant (lion) is inedible and that of the humble (goat) attains the status of edible. All who came to this world have to die ultimately.'

Here is Pauri from page:

'Lion catches a goat; As the goat is dying, it begins to laugh. In awe the lion asks, why are you laughing? Humbly the goat says: Our sons are destroyed (castrated). We only eat wild plants and suffer being slayed & skinned alive. Those who cut our throats and eat our flesh, what will be their plight? Proud and arrogant their bodies are a waste; inedible and fruitless. All who come to the world will eventually die.'

I am mistaken. It seems you have used a different translation from Dr Jodh Singh.

Reply by HS

    • Reply I don't understand what you mean? The full translation is there. Please explain why you say "Can We Have The Entire Pauri?" Which part do you say is missing? I have checked the beginning of each of the 7 lines and they all appear there for the Gurmukhi and English Hari Singh 18:33, 23 August 2006 (CDT)

All other are non-issues

A Shabad To Include

An interesting shabad to include in this:

Page 143 of the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji

mehlaa 1. First Mehl:

vaykh je mithaa kati-aa kat kut baDhaa paa-ay. Look, and see how the sugar-cane is cut down. After cutting away its branches, its feet are bound together into bundles,

khundhaa andar rakh kai dayn so mal sajaa-ay. and then, it is placed between the wooden rollers and crushed.

ras kas tatar paa-ee-ai tapai tai villaa-ay. What punishment is inflicted upon it! Its juice is extracted and placed in the cauldron; as it is heated, it groans and cries out.

bhee so fog samaalee-ai dichai ag jaalaa-ay. And then, the crushed cane is collected and burnt in the fire below.

naanak mithai patree-ai vaykhhu lokaa aa-ay. ||2|| Nanak: come, people, and see how the sweet sugar-cane is treated! ||2||

On one level it is metaphorical, but on another level it shows how the Guru's saw life in everything around them.

Reply

Although this is a beautiful Shabad, as its not linked to Meat directly, I don't think we can include it here. May be we will start a new article on Maharaj's advice on behaviour in life based on observation of life. --Hari Singh 06:55, 1 September 2006 (CDT)

Fools Argue about Meat & Flesh

{{Srigranth|1289|55398|ਮਃ ੧ ॥ मः १ ॥ mehlaa 1. First Mehl:
ਮਾਸ੝ ਮਾਸ੝ ਕਰਿ ਮੂਰਖ੝ ਝਗੜੇ ਗਿਆਨ੝ ਧਿਆਨ੝ ਨਹੀ ਜਾਣੈ ॥ ਕਉਣ੝ ਮਾਸ੝ ਕਉਣ੝ ਸਾਗ੝ ਕਹਾਵੈ ਕਿਸ੝ ਮਹਿ ਪਾਪ ਸਮਾਣੇ ॥
ਗੈਂਡਾ ਮਾਰਿ ਹੋਮ ਜਗ ਕੀਝ ਦੇਵਤਿਆ ਕੀ ਬਾਣੇ ॥ ਮਾਸ੝ ਛੋਡਿ ਬੈਸਿ ਨਕ੝ ਪਕੜਹਿ ਰਾਤੀ ਮਾਣਸ ਖਾਣੇ ॥
ਫੜ੝ ਕਰਿ ਲੋਕਾਂ ਨੋ ਦਿਖਲਾਵਹਿ ਗਿਆਨ੝ ਧਿਆਨ੝ ਨਹੀ ਸੂਝੈ ॥ ਨਾਨਕ ਅੰਧੇ ਸਿਉ ਕਿਆ ਕਹੀਝ ਕਹੈ ਨ ਕਹਿਆ ਬੂਝੈ ॥
ਅੰਧਾ ਸੋਇ ਜਿ ਅੰਧ੝ ਕਮਾਵੈ ਤਿਸ੝ ਰਿਦੈ ਸਿ ਲੋਚਨ ਨਾਹੀ ॥ ਮਾਤ ਪਿਤਾ ਕੀ ਰਕਤ੝ ਨਿਪੰਨੇ ਮਛੀ ਮਾਸ੝ ਨ ਖਾਂਹੀ ॥
ਇਸਤ੝ਰੀ ਪ੝ਰਖੈ ਜਾਂ ਨਿਸਿ ਮੇਲਾ ਓਥੈ ਮੰਧ੝ ਕਮਾਹੀ ॥ ਮਾਸਹ੝ ਨਿੰਮੇ ਮਾਸਹ੝ ਜੰਮੇ ਹਮ ਮਾਸੈ ਕੇ ਭਾਂਡੇ ॥
ਗਿਆਨ੝ ਧਿਆਨ੝ ਕਛ੝ ਸੂਝੈ ਨਾਹੀ ਚਤ੝ਰ੝ ਕਹਾਵੈ ਪਾਂਡੇ ॥ ਬਾਹਰ ਕਾ ਮਾਸ੝ ਮੰਦਾ ਸ੝ਆਮੀ ਘਰ ਕਾ ਮਾਸ੝ ਚੰਗੇਰਾ॥
ਜੀਅ ਜੰਤ ਸਭਿ ਮਾਸਹ੝ ਹੋਝ ਜੀਇ ਲਇਆ ਵਾਸੇਰਾ ॥ ਅਭਖ੝ ਭਖਹਿ ਭਖ੝ ਤਜਿ ਛੋਡਹਿ ਅੰਧ੝ ਗ੝ਰੂ ਜਿਨ ਕੇਰਾ॥
ਮਾਸਹ੝ ਨਿੰਮੇ ਮਾਸਹ੝ ਜੰਮੇ ਹਮ ਮਾਸੈ ਕੇ ਭਾਂਡੇ ॥ ਗਿਆਨ੝ ਧਿਆਨ੝ ਕਛ੝ ਸੂਝੈ ਨਾਹੀ ਚਤ੝ਰ੝ ਕਹਾਵੈ ਪਾਂਡੇ॥
ਮਾਸ੝ ਪ੝ਰਾਣੀ ਮਾਸ੝ ਕਤੇਬਂ”ੀ ਚਹ੝ ਜ੝ਗਿ ਮਾਸ੝ ਕਮਾਣਾ ॥ ਜਜਿ ਕਾਜਿ ਵੀਆਹਿ ਸ੝ਹਾਵੈ ਓਥੈ ਮਾਸ੝ ਸਮਾਣਾ॥
ਇਸਤ੝ਰੀ ਪ੝ਰਖ ਨਿਪਜਹਿ ਮਾਸਹ੝ ਪਾਤਿਸਾਹ ਸ੝ਲਤਾਨਾਂ ॥ ਜੇ ਓਇ ਦਿਸਹਿ ਨਰਕਿ ਜਾਂਦੇ ਤਾਂ ਉਨ੝ਹ੝ਹ ਕਾ ਦਾਨ੝ ਨ ਲੈਣਾ॥
ਦੇਂਦਾ ਨਰਕਿ ਸ੝ਰਗਿ ਲੈਦੇ ਦੇਖਹ੝ ਝਹ੝ ਧਿਙਾਣਾ ॥ ਆਪਿ ਨ ਬੂਝੈ ਲੋਕ ਬ੝ਝਾਝ ਪਾਂਡੇ ਖਰਾ ਸਿਆਣਾ ॥
ਪਾਂਡੇ ਤੂ ਜਾਣੈ ਹੀ ਨਾਹੀ ਕਿਥਹ੝ ਮਾਸ੝ ਉਪੰਨਾ ॥ ਤੋਇਅਹ੝ ਅੰਨ੝ ਕਮਾਦ੝ ਕਪਾਹਾਂ ਤੋਇਅਹ੝ ਤ੝ਰਿਭਵਣ੝ ਗੰਨਾ ॥
ਤੋਆ ਆਖੈ ਹਉ ਬਹ੝ ਬਿਧਿ ਹਛਾ ਤੋਝ ਬਹ੝ਤ੝ ਬਿਕਾਰਾ ॥ ਝਤੇ ਰਸ ਛੋਡਿ ਹੋਵੈ ਸੰਨਿਆਸੀ ਨਾਨਕ੝ ਕਹੈ ਵਿਚਾਰਾ ॥੨॥

SAYTH 'TRUTH god'