Talk:Guru Granth Sahib on meat: Difference between revisions

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'''Reply:''' Veer ji, we are talking about pain and suffering NOT about life; we are talking about compassion - eyes in you heart! How do you feel when you kill another animal? Can you see any suffering and pain? If not then carry on. If you do then let Gurbani guide you. {{srig|903|38755|ਨਿਰਦਇਆ ਨਹੀ ਜੋਤਿ ਉਜਾਲਾ ॥ You have no compassion; the Lord's Light does not shine in you. ਬੂਡਤ ਬੂਡੇ ਸਰਬ ਜੰਜਾਲਾ ॥੪॥ You are drowned, drowned in worldly entanglements.(4)}}  Kind regards, [[user:hari singh|Hari Singh]]<sup>[[User talk:Hari singh|talk]]</sup> 03:56, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
'''Reply:''' Veer ji, we are talking about pain and suffering NOT about life; we are talking about compassion - eyes in you heart! How do you feel when you kill another animal? Can you see any suffering and pain? If not then carry on. If you do then let Gurbani guide you. {{srig|903|38755|ਨਿਰਦਇਆ ਨਹੀ ਜੋਤਿ ਉਜਾਲਾ ॥ You have no compassion; the Lord's Light does not shine in you. ਬੂਡਤ ਬੂਡੇ ਸਰਬ ਜੰਜਾਲਾ ॥੪॥ You are drowned, drowned in worldly entanglements.(4)}}  Kind regards, [[user:hari singh|Hari Singh]]<sup>[[User talk:Hari singh|talk]]</sup> 03:56, 23 February 2010 (UTC)


* <font color=green>Veer Ji, This is Last reply of Mine on topic. I Haven't found anything AGAINST or FAVOUR of NON VEGETARIANISM in GURU Granth ji. The Vichar ends up to Kind and Compassion, and i have same compassion for seed too and egg too. i do not take egg as it's my personal choice...Control, how much can i control my tounge in both cases veg and non veg, and i feel i take veg food and can be a good sikh but when i was taking non veg food then i was not bad sikh. Food is Maya to keep our body stable we take food(of any kind), Naam is not Maya, Naam is our eternal food. Naam contains DEEN DAYAL for god(Compassion and kind) and Naam includes KAAL and MAHAKAAL for god(Unkind acc. to us). What happened in Haiti was naturan disaster and UNKIND act of God. What is Kind and What is Unkind? The most Unkind act is that a Person misguides someone from spiritual way of life. The person who takes away someone from that Pari Puran Parmatma. These Rituals veg non veg etc etc will remain on earth after my death too as this body will go in fire after my death but this Atma (MAYA to NIRLEP) will not. Eat Less!!!! Sleep LESS!!!! Take Balanced diet!!!! May God bless all.</font([[User:Hpt lucky|Lucky]] 11:51, 23 February 2010 (UTC))
* <font color=green>Veer Ji, This is Last reply of Mine on topic. I Haven't found anything AGAINST or FAVOUR of NON VEGETARIANISM in GURU Granth ji. The Vichar ends up to Kind and Compassion, and i have same compassion for seed too and egg too. i do not take egg as it's my personal choice...Control, how much can i control my tounge in both cases veg and non veg, and i feel i take veg food and can be a good sikh but when i was taking non veg food then i was not bad sikh. Food is Maya to keep our body stable we take food(of any kind), Naam is not Maya, Naam is our eternal food. Naam contains DEEN DAYAL for god(Compassion and kind) and Naam includes KAAL and MAHAKAAL for god(Unkind acc. to us). What happened in Haiti was naturan disaster and UNKIND act of God. What is Kind and What is Unkind? The most Unkind act is that a Person misguides someone from spiritual way of life. The person who takes away someone from that Pari Puran Parmatma. These Rituals veg non veg etc etc will remain on earth after my death too as this body will go in fire after my death but this Atma (MAYA to NIRLEP) will not. Eat Less!!!! Sleep LESS!!!! Take Balanced diet!!!! May God bless all.</font([[User:Hpt lucky|Lucky]] 11:51, 23 February 2010 (UTC))</font>


==Reply to Some Quotes ([[User:Paapi|paapi]] 10:13, 23 February 2010 (UTC))==
==Reply to Some Quotes ([[User:Paapi|paapi]] 10:13, 23 February 2010 (UTC))==

Revision as of 05:51, 23 February 2010

Eating meat: no significance as per Gurbani

Eating meat keeps no significance as per Gurbani, even gurbani does not promote to take meat. Gurbani do promote to take simple food which is good for health. Gurbani treats plants are also Jeev(Living Organisams). Supporters of meat and Non supporters use to fight on meat issue to that gurbani says beautiful words for those who wrangle over flesh i.e

Maas Maas Kar Moorakh Jhagrhey, GYAN DHYAN nahi janey

So Gurbani promotes Gyan(Wisdom) and Dhyan(to memorize God) rather to fight on issues of meat. Hpt lucky 17 February 2010, 15:33

continue

Lines have nothing to take with meat eating, but haq halal di kamai

SGGS Page 723 Full Shabad
ਬੰਦੇ ਚਸਮ ਦੀਦੰ ਫਨਾਇ ॥

ਦ੝ਨਂ​”ੀਆ ਮ੝ਰਦਾਰ ਖ੝ਰਦਨੀ ਗਾਫਲ ਹਵਾਇ ॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
ਗੈਬਾਨ ਹੈਵਾਨ ਹਰਾਮ ਕ੝ਸਤਨੀ ਮ੝ਰਦਾਰ ਬਖੋਰਾਇ ॥
ਦਿਲ ਕਬਜ ਕਬਜਾ ਕਾਦਰੋ ਦੋਜਕ ਸਜਾਇ ॥੨॥

banday chasam deedaN fanaa-ay.
duneeN-aa murdaar khurdanee gaafal havaa-ay. rahaa-o.
gaibaan haivaan haraam kustanee murdaar bakhoraa-ay.
dil kabaj kabjaa kaadro dojak sajaa-ay. ((2))

O human being, whatever you can see with your eyes, shall perish.
The world eats dead carcasses, living by neglect and greed. ((Pause))
Like a goblin, or a beast, they kill and eat the forbidden carcasses of meat.
So control your urges, or else you will be seized by the Lord, and thrown into the tortures of hell.
((2))

Following lines is againt Bali or religious sacrifices which pundits or moolahs gave, not used in meat discussion.

SGGS Page 1103 Full Shabad
ਜੀਅ ਬਧਹ੝ ਸ੝ ਧਰਮ੝ ਕਰਿ ਥਾਪਹ੝ ਅਧਰਮ੝ ਕਹਹ੝ ਕਤ ਭਾਈ ॥

ਆਪਸ ਕਉ ਮ੝ਨਿਵਰ ਕਰਿ ਥਾਪਹ੝ ਕਾ ਕਉ ਕਹਹ੝ ਕਸਾਈ ॥੨॥

jee-a baDhahu so Dharam kar thaapahu aDhram kahhu kat bhaa-ee.
aapas ka-o munivar kar thaapahu kaa ka-o kahhu kasaa-ee. ((2))

You kill living beings, and call it a righteous action.
Tell me, brother, what would you call an unrighteous action?
You call yourself the most excellent sage; then who would you call a butcher? ((2))

Below lines are not at all for meat or sikhs as sikhs have no relation with Teerath Barat Nem

SGGS Page 1377 Full Shabad

ਕਬੀਰ ਭਾਂਗ ਮਾਛ੝ਲੀ ਸ੝ਰਾ ਪਾਨਿ ਜੋ ਜੋ ਪ੝ਰਾਨੀ ਖਾਂਹਿ ॥
ਤੀਰਥ ਬਰਤ ਨੇਮ ਕੀਝ ਤੇ ਸਭੈ ਰਸਾਤਲਿ ਜਾਂਹਿ ॥੨੩੩॥


kabeer bhaaNg maachhulee suraa paan jo jo paraanee khaaNhi.
tirath barat naym kee-ay tay sabhai rasaatal jaaNhi. ॥233॥

Kabeer, those mortals who consume marijuana, fish and wine
- no matter what pilgrimages, fasts and rituals they follow, they will all go to hell. ॥233॥


Whole lines are misiterpreted and we cannot use haere Gurdas vaars, if Guru Granth Sahib is shaant on issue why we use them. i am preparing an article under guidance of guru granth sahi and conclusion is that every HUMAN IS KILLER....Plants are Jeev/Water contains JEEV and humans are killing them(Isn't it jeev hathya),,,,well About Meat issue gurbani haven't supported any side. Gurbani says KHan peen da antar atma te effect nahi painda sareer te pai sakda so khao limited te oh food khao jo suit karey.


and veer ji aj kal tan mainu Mooli Gajar gobhi te v taras aan deha, as they are jeev too(cleared by Guru Granth sahib(Andaz jeraj utbhuj setaj).....lol (Lucky 05:01, 18 February 2010 (UTC))

Each tuk addresses the issue

Bhai sahib ji,

Shabad (1) Each tuk on this page addresses this issue either directly or indirectly; what one should try and eat; the preferred diet of a Gursikh; Is killing others to fill ones stomach deemed right by Gurmat?; and how one should live to attain a high karmic status. These are all issues that the Guru addresses directly and sometimes indirectly to the Sikh to listens to the Guru.

It is up to us to understand and interpret the exact meaning but the translation certainly deals with the issue. In shabad (1) you say this is about "haq halal di kamai" - that is the meaning that you gain from these tuks but to me the words "they kill and eat the forbidden carcasses of meat" give a clear message. The translation is good and goes to the heart of the issue.

    • Veer ji read the whole bani then comment. if you think Gurus are addressing to it then read these lines, Gurus have information for vegetarians and non vegetarians and other ctaegories:
      ਕਿਆ ਮੇਵਾ ਕਿਆ ਘਿਉ ਗ੝ੜ੝ ਮਿਠਾ ਕਿਆ ਮੈਦਾ ਕਿਆ ਮਾਸ੝ ॥ ਕਿਆ ਕਪੜ੝ ਕਿਆ ਸੇਜ ਸ੝ਖਾਲੀ ਕੀਜਹਿ ਭੋਗ ਬਿਲਾਸ ॥ ਕਿਆ ਲਸਕਰ ਕਿਆ ਨੇਬ ਖਵਾਸੀ ਆਵੈ ਮਹਲੀ ਵਾਸ੝ ॥ ਨਾਨਕ ਸਚੇ ਨਾਮ ਵਿਣ੝ ਸਭੇ ਟੋਲ ਵਿਣਾਸ੝ ॥੨॥ whatever you east sir it keeps no significance. Plants also have life why you kill them? same gurus write these lines ਇਕਿ ਮਾਸਹਾਰੀ ਇਕਿ ਤ੝ਰਿਣ੝ ਖਾਹਿ ॥ਇਕਨਾ ਛਤੀਹ ਅੰਮ੝ਰਿਤ ਪਾਹਿ ॥ ਇਕਿ ਮਿਟੀਆ ਮਹਿ ਮਿਟੀਆ ਖਾਹਿ ॥ ਇਕਿ ਪਉਣ ਸ੝ਮਾਰੀ ਪਉਣ ਸ੝ਮਾਰਿ ॥ ਇਕਿ ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰੀ ਨਾਮ ਆਧਾਰਿ ॥ ਜੀਵੈ ਦਾਤਾ ਮਰੈ ਨ ਕੋਇ ॥ ਨਾਨਕ ਮ੝ਠੇ ਜਾਹਿ ਨਾਹੀ ਮਨਿ ਸੋਇ ॥੨॥...read it ik masahari ik trin khaye.....again same message. Brahmins have this philosphy and he use to fight so Nanak gave updesh to Brahmin and added one more line ਗੈਂਡਾ ਮਾਰਿ ਹੋਮ ਜਗ ਕੀਝ ਦੇਵਤਿਆ ਕੀ ਬਾਣੇ ॥ਮਾਸ੝ ਛੋਡਿ ਬੈਸਿ ਨਕ੝ ਪਕੜਹਿ ਰਾਤੀ ਮਾਣਸ ਖਾਣੇ ॥ <<now tell me which Maas is this written? you can read further ਅੰਧਾ ਸੋਇ ਜਿ ਅੰਧ੝ ਕਮਾਵੈ ਤਿਸ੝ ਰਿਦੈ ਸਿ ਲੋਚਨ ਨਾਹੀ ॥ ਮਾਤ ਪਿਤਾ ਕੀ ਰਕਤ੝ ਨਿਪੰਨੇ ਮਛੀ ਮਾਸ੝ ਨ ਖਾਂਹੀ ॥// You can't categorize Sikhi accordig to type of Food ut you can cateogrize hinduism with tamsik satvik rajsik


Shabad (2)

Bhai sahib, the Guru Granth Sahib is meant for us Sikhs to learn from; not for pandits or others. It is meant for us to learn from. So although the shabad starts by addressing a Pandit; it is addressing the wrongs done by him in the name to dharm; to kill other living beings is highlighted as 'a-dharm' - against dharm. The rest is for you to interpret but Gurbani tells us that killing other living being cannot be labelled as an act of Dharm - it is an act against dharm. Whether, one chooses to learn from this or not is up to the individual reader.

In shabad (2) the line "ਜੀਅ ਬਧਹ੝ ਸ੝ ਧਰਮ੝ ਕਰਿ ਥਾਪਹ੝ ਅਧਰਮ੝ ਕਹਹ੝ ਕਤ ਭਾਈ ॥ " which is easy to understand for a normal Punjabi speaker, does not leave a lot to the imagination - ""ਜੀਅ ਬਧਹ੝", You kill living beings "ਸ੝ ਧਰਮ੝ ਕਰਿ ਥਾਪਹ੝" and you call it dharm - "ਅਧਰਮ੝ ਕਹਹ੝ ਕਤ ਭਾਈ" than Brother, what is a-dharm?

    • Bhai Sahib, Guru Granth Sahib was basically updesh to hindus,Pundits and some Muslims, the people from these two religions who start following guru became gursikh. Sikhan dee barish nahi hoyi c aasman ton. Killing a JEEV is adharam then tell me why we kill plants??? Gurbani says Andaj Jeraj Setaj Utbhuj are four khani from where jeev get birth, and there are millions khanis from where jeev get birth but Do you know how many Jeev you kill in a Day???

Shabad (3):

Bhai sahib, the message here is in simple Punjabi and very direct - "ਕਬੀਰ ਭਾਂਗ ਮਾਛ੝ਲੀ ਸ੝ਰਾ ਪਾਨਿ ਜੋ ਜੋ ਪ੝ਰਾਨੀ ਖਾਂਹਿ ॥". The words "ਭਾਂਗ, ਮਾਛ੝ਲੀ, ਸ੝ਰਾ ਪਾਨਿ" bhang, machlee, sura-paan leave very little to the imagination - bhang is a current word used by nihangs today as well and is a drug to get intoxicated; machlee is fish found in rivers and sarovars, etc. sura-paan is a reference to alcoholic drink and a word that our elders still recognise. Kabir ji has warned us!

Kind regards, Hari Singhtalk 17:17, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

  • Veer ji read the whole line, line continues with ਤੀਰਥ ਬਰਤ ਨੇਮ ਕੀਝ ਤੇ ਸਭੈ ਰਸਾਤਲਿ ਜਾਂਹਿ, now tell me are we related to Teeraths? are we related to Fasts? are we related to Nem? simple these three have no significance for gursikh. If i aggree at your interpretation the you have to agree with e that it means veer ji if i will Take vege food and if i do teerath, barat, nem then i am successful in god's place? if not and if i do Tirath Barat and nem i am rejected?? see does it make sense? The lines are used by some Babas and sant people who are under influence of vaishvanism, but exact meaning resides in gurbani. Kindly Veecharo please.....i am also a Vegetarian like you. i will not misquote bani for my purposes the universal aspect is lying. i will not say that to do Jeev Hathya but when i think about drinking water then my thinking flops, when i eat curd and see under microscope lactobacilus my thinking flops. Plants are also Jeev Fungal is also Jeev....Jeeya ka Aahar Jea. We are killing many many Jeev to nourish ourselves. so should we leave eating, or should we adopt Jainism?

i do not want to promote NON-VEGETARIANISM but i am saying that Meat keep no significance in spiritual enlightenment. YOGA philosphy even doesn't work in sikhism. Gurbani message is for all, if he keeps hair if he not, wether he is hindu or muslim or sikh. This message is not restricted to guy born in keshdharis or sikh families.

Regards, Lucky(¬¬¬¬)

ਕਉਣ੝ ਮਾਸ੝ ਕਉਣ੝ ਸਾਗ੝ ਕਹਾਵੈ ਕਿਸ੝ ਮਹਿ ਪਾਪ ਸਮਾਣੇ ॥ http://www.4shared.com/file/206622274/d4fb43ea/Tamsik_bhojan-Muslim_Faqir_Ban.html

Yet more Gurbani references

Bhai sahib ji,

Yet more Gurbani references; please do not abandoned the ones on the article page? Those are the ones we should be discussing!

Shabad A1

Anyway, the first one that you quote is: (Guru Granth Sahib, page 142)

ਕਿਆ ਖਾਧੈ ਕਿਆ ਪੈਧੈ ਹੋਇ ॥
Ki▫ĝ kẖĝḝẖai ki▫ĝ paiḝẖai ho▫e.
What good is food, and what good are clothes,

ਜਾ ਮਨਿ ਨਾਹੀ ਸਚਾ ਸੋਇ ॥
Jĝ man nĝhī sacẖĝ so▫e.
if the True Lord does not abide within the mind?

ਕਿਆ ਮੇਵਾ ਕਿਆ ਘਿਉ ਗ੝ੜ੝ ਮਿਠਾ ਕਿਆ ਮੈਦਾ ਕਿਆ ਮਾਸ੝ ॥
Ki▫ĝ mevĝ ki▫ĝ gẖi▫o guṛ miṯẖĝ ki▫ĝ maiḝĝ ki▫ĝ mĝs.
What good are fruits, what good is ghee, sweet jaggery, what good is flour, and what good is meat?

ਕਿਆ ਕਪੜ੝ ਕਿਆ ਸੇਜ ਸ੝ਖਾਲੀ ਕੀਜਹਿ ਭੋਗ ਬਿਲਾਸ ॥
Ki▫ĝ kapaṛ ki▫ĝ sej sukẖĝlī kījėh bẖog bilĝs.
What good are clothes, and what good is a soft bed, to enjoy pleasures and sensual delights?

ਕਿਆ ਲਸਕਰ ਕਿਆ ਨੇਬ ਖਵਾਸੀ ਆਵੈ ਮਹਲੀ ਵਾਸ੝ ॥
Ki▫ĝ laskar ki▫ĝ neb kẖavĝsī ĝvai mahlī vĝs.
What good is an army, and what good are soldiers, servants and mansions to live in?

ਨਾਨਕ ਸਚੇ ਨਾਮ ਵਿਣ੝ ਸਭੇ ਟੋਲ ਵਿਣਾਸ੝ ॥੨॥
Nĝnak sacẖe nĝm viṇ sabẖe tol viṇĝs. ||2||
O Nanak, without the True Name, all this paraphernalia shall disappear. ||2||

Bhai sahib ji, Gurbani is not telling us that all these things are good or bad; for example - should we have soft beds to enjoy pleasures and sensual delights? In a similar way, should we have servants and mansions? No; all Gurbani is saying is that everything good or bad is absolutely useless as it will all disappear from us soon! We should not get tangled up in material things and indulge in what is good food and what are good clothes, etc. Life is short so let us not waste it in these useless things. Without Naam all is wasted.

    • A1.1: I am a Vegetarian Guy sir first thing i want to add. Now, Problem is english interpretation, you yourself resolved that MASAHARI or GHASAHARI/////GAREEB or DHANWAAN keeps no significance......GOOD CURD AND DAAL WILL DISAPPEAR AND SO WILL MAAS...so Maas keeps no significance!!!! isn't it. Sachey naam bin Tol Vinas

Shabad A2

(Guru Granth Sahib, page 144)

ਇਕਿ ਮਾਸਹਾਰੀ ਇਕਿ ਤ੝ਰਿਣ੝ ਖਾਹਿ ॥
Ik mĝshĝrī ik ṯariṇ kẖĝhi.
Some eat meat, while others eat grass.

ਇਕਨਾ ਛਤੀਹ ਅੰਮ੝ਰਿਤ ਪਾਹਿ ॥
Iknĝ cẖẖaṯīh amriṯ pĝhi.
Some have all the thirty-six varieties of delicacies,

ਇਕਿ ਮਿਟੀਆ ਮਹਿ ਮਿਟੀਆ ਖਾਹਿ ॥
Ik mitī▫ĝ mėh mitī▫ĝ kẖĝhi.
while others live in the dirt and eat mud.

ਇਕਿ ਪਉਣ ਸ੝ਮਾਰੀ ਪਉਣ ਸ੝ਮਾਰਿ ॥
Ik pa▫uṇ sumĝrī pa▫uṇ sumĝr.
Some control the breath, and regulate their breathing.

ਇਕਿ ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰੀ ਨਾਮ ਆਧਾਰਿ ॥
Ik nirankĝrī nĝm ĝḝẖĝr.
Some live by the Support of the Naam, the Name of the Formless Lord.

ਜੀਵੈ ਦਾਤਾ ਮਰੈ ਨ ਕੋਇ ॥
Jīvai ḝĝṯĝ marai na ko▫e.
The Great Giver lives; no one dies.

ਨਾਨਕ ਮ੝ਠੇ ਜਾਹਿ ਨਾਹੀ ਮਨਿ ਸੋਇ ॥੨॥
Nĝnak muṯẖe jĝhi nĝhī man so▫e. ||2||
O Nanak, those who do not enshrine the Lord within their minds are deluded. ||2||

Again, Bhai sahib ji, this is a shabad that tells us how God has made all sort of creatures - some eat meat; some veg; some have 36 varieties of food other live in the dirt and eat mud - So where does it say it is OK for man to eat meat? Does man live in dirt and eat mud?

Please do not fall in the trap of saying that this or that is to address the Brahmin or Mullah or ..... The Guru Granth sahib is OUR Guru; it is for our consumption not anyone else's. Did the Guru tell us to pass these shabads to the pandits or brahmins or mullahs; No. Sabh Sikhk-han ko hukam ha Guru maneo Granth - sikhkanko hukam ha - not brahmins ko or mullah-ko, etc.

    • A2.1: Problem is the Interpretation of Gurbani in english, Does man live in dirt and eat mud?, then tell me do Creatures enshrine in God's love? Dog enshrine in God's love, lion enshrine in god's love? if yes, then What is proved from here that these things keep no significance(Maas, Jog, Ghaas, delicacies)....if no then same thing.
      If a MASAHARI enshrine lord in mind than he is accepted what if people are GHASAHARI and not enshrine in love with lord? So MASAHARI or GHASAHARI creatures keep no significance!!!food habits keep no significance!
      God never restrict food, it is us who do that, human can easily live on veg but his body is made such he can consume non veg too, if god want to take us veg food only then he could give COW like structure to us. Khaana da laina dena sareer naal hai AATMA naal nahi


Shabad A3

  • See full Shabad here
SGGS Page 1289 Full Shabad
ਮਃ ੧ ॥ मः १ ॥ mehlaa 1. First Mehl:

ਮਾਸ੝ ਮਾਸ੝ ਕਰਿ ਮੂਰਖ੝ ਝਗੜੇ ਗਿਆਨ੝ ਧਿਆਨ੝ ਨਹੀ ਜਾਣੈ ॥ ਕਉਣ੝ ਮਾਸ੝ ਕਉਣ੝ ਸਾਗ੝ ਕਹਾਵੈ ਕਿਸ੝ ਮਹਿ ਪਾਪ ਸਮਾਣੇ ॥
ਗੈਂਡਾ ਮਾਰਿ ਹੋਮ ਜਗ ਕੀਝ ਦੇਵਤਿਆ ਕੀ ਬਾਣੇ ॥ ਮਾਸ੝ ਛੋਡਿ ਬੈਸਿ ਨਕ੝ ਪਕੜਹਿ ਰਾਤੀ ਮਾਣਸ ਖਾਣੇ ॥
ਫੜ੝ ਕਰਿ ਲੋਕਾਂ ਨੋ ਦਿਖਲਾਵਹਿ ਗਿਆਨ੝ ਧਿਆਨ੝ ਨਹੀ ਸੂਝੈ ॥ ਨਾਨਕ ਅੰਧੇ ਸਿਉ ਕਿਆ ਕਹੀਝ ਕਹੈ ਨ ਕਹਿਆ ਬੂਝੈ ॥

maas maas kar moorakh jhagrhay gi-aan Dhi-aan nahee jaanai. ka-un maas ka-un saag kahaavai kis meh paap samaanay.
gaiNdaa maar hom jag kee-ay dayviti-aa kee baanay. maas chhod bais nak pakrheh raatee maanas khaanay.
farh kar lokaaN no dikhlaavahi gi-aan Dhi-aan nahee soojhai. naanak anDhay si-o ki-aa kahee-ai kahai na kahi-aa boojhai.

The fools argue about flesh and meat, but they know nothing about meditation and spiritual wisdom. What is called meat, and what is called green vegetables? What leads to sin? It was the habit of the gods to kill the rhinoceros, and make a feast of the burnt offering. Those who renounce meat, and hold their noses when sitting near it, devour men at night. They practice hypocrisy, and make a show before other people, but they do not understand anything about meditation or spiritual wisdom. O Nanak, what can be said to the blind people? They cannot answer, or even understand what is said.

Line 1: Bhai sahib ji, Here the Guru is telling us that: Only fools argue about flesh and meat (NOTE: it does not say veg and meat) but they know nothing about Gian and Dian - this tells us the most important aspect of the shabad - Without any gian or dian one should not argue about anything - First obtain Gian and Dian and then when you have some enlightenment you can make judgements.

    • A3.1: Now tell me, suppose i am NON VEG, you are VEG...non VEG will not have problem with VEg consumers but VEG people have problem with NON VEG...they will say non vegies not to take food and which result to JHAGDA: ਮਾਸ੝ ਮਾਸ੝ ਕਰਿ ਮੂਰਖ੝ ਝਗੜੇ ਗਿਆਨ੝ ਧਿਆਨ੝ ਨਹੀ ਜਾਣੈ ॥ so both parties fight and the aim of GUru is on pundit who preach such things.

Line 2: Then Guru asks us: What is meat what is sag - green veg? What leads to sin?

    • A3.2: then tell me?? What is sin question of GURBANI!!!!! This is discourse wih pundit who says people not to consume MEat. but that pundits were away from Gyan/Dhyan....

Line 3: Here the Guru informs us that in olden times - It was the habit of the gods to kill the rhinoceros, and make a feast of the burnt offering.

    • A3.3:. Yes against Bali Prikriya

Line 4: Then the Guru goes on to tells us: Those who renounce meat, and hold their noses when sitting near it, devour men at night. So there are people who show repulsion at the mention of eating meat but "in the night" or behind peoples backs they "devour men" they eat men!

    • A3.4: Same thing explained above

Then the Guru goes on to tell us how these people are hypocritical and make a show without any spiritual understanding at all; these are blind people with no understanding.

Further in this long shabad, the Guru tells us: ਬਾਹਰ ਕਾ ਮਾਸ੝ ਮੰਦਾ ਸ੝ਆਮੀ ਘਰ ਕਾ ਮਾਸ੝ ਚੰਗੇਰਾ ॥
baahar kaa maas mandhaa suaamee ghar kaa maas changaeraa ||
O master, you believe that flesh on the outside is bad, but the flesh of those in your own home is good.
The outside flesh is bad but flesh of ones in own home is good - Is this talking about eating? So should we eat this "good flesh"? What do you understand from this line - Can't you see what the Guru is explaining?

The final line of the shabad tells us: ਝਤੇ ਰਸ ਛੋਡਿ ਹੋਵੈ ਸੰਨਿਆਸੀ ਨਾਨਕ੝ ਕਹੈ ਵਿਚਾਰਾ ॥੨॥
eaethae ras shhodd hovai sanniaasee naanak kehai vichaaraa ||2||
Forsaking these delicacies, one becomes a true Sannyaasee, a detached hermit. Nanak reflects and speaks. ||2||

Only by giving up these delicacies does one becomes a true sannyaasee! so one has to give up these treats in life to become truly spiritual!

    • A3.5: read whole salok please : ਅੰਧਾ ਸੋਇ ਜਿ ਅੰਧ੝ ਕਮਾਵੈ ਤਿਸ੝ ਰਿਦੈ ਸਿ ਲੋਚਨ ਨਾਹੀ ॥((They alone are blind, who act blindly. They have no eyes in their hearts.)), ਮਾਤ ਪਿਤਾ ਕੀ ਰਕਤ੝ ਨਿਪੰਨੇ ਮਛੀ ਮਾਸ੝ ਨ ਖਾਂਹੀ ॥ ((They are produced from the blood of their mothers and fathers, but they do not eat fish or meat. ))
      What i want to mention that MEAT HAVE NO SIGNIFICANCE IN GURBANI!!!!!!

A4: Guru Granth Sahib updesh to hindus, Pundits and Muslims

Bhai sahib ji: When did Guru Gobind Singh or any other Guru say to Hindus or Pundits or Mullah - read Gurbani; take holy Granth as your Guru? Only the Sikhs were told to accept the holy Granth as Guru. Guru Tegh Bahadar did not say to the Kashmiri Pandits, I will save you but you must take the Granth as your Guru?

    • A4.1: Now sir Ji, If you will say the granth is not updesh to PUNDITS AND MUSLIMS then edit the granth and remove maximum lines.... (Sun Pandey, Bol Pandey), articles like Guru Granth Sahib's guidance for Muslims....change it to Guru Granth Sahib guidance to Sikhs!!! Guru Granth Sahib have guidance for all, and who follow him is a SIKH. wasn't Sayi miyan meer a Sikh??? Wasn't peer buddhu shah a sikh?? wasn't jaani shah a sikh?? wasn't todar mall a sikh (as he was not Todar Singh)?? they all were sikhs!!!

A5: Killing a plant?

Bhai sahib ji,

There are very good reasons why when a plant is destroyed the word "kill" is not used; similarly when a human is killed we call it "murder"; while we do not use the word 'murder' when an animal is killed.

When we breath-in many millions of living organisms are killed but no one stops breathing to save the millions of bacteria; in the Jain religion some wear a cloth over their nose & mouth to stop the death of these bacteria. Are they murdering the bacteria?

    • A5.1: Lavo Sir ji you are exposing whole topic

There is a big different in "killing" a bacteria, a germ, a plant, an animal and a man. Bhai sahib ji, if you can't see that then I think we should not carry on with this dialogue! Why do we not kill other humans to eat like the pygmies do? Humans probably make a good balanced diet and it would also solve the population problem.

    • A5.2: Guru Granth Sahib haven't promoted meat eating, but meat eating have no significance.

Why the big difference between a man and a goat? Does a goat not have a brain like a man; does it not respond to pain like a man? When you kill a baby goat does the mother not try and protect it? Why does it do this? Does it have feelings? So why the difference in attitude between how we treat a man and a goat?

    • A5.3: God is situated in ANDAJ, JERAJ, SETAJ, UTBHUJ....What you kill what you not tell me!!!!

If I cut a goat's throat, I hear its cries of pain; I know it is suffering pain. I don't need a electronic gadget to understand that; God has given me enough sense to see that the goat has feelings and that it is suffering.

    • A5.4: you cannot feel pain of plants sir, i was talking with dad that a radish was growing and before me farmer plucks it, it wants to grow more want to live, it have life with earth and we killed Radish, my dad said @@hor khana chadd daiye@@,,,,,,Sir i can feel sufferings of Plants too.

Bhai sahib ji, does the cabbage cry out when you cut it? Does it have tears in its eyes? Does the cabbages mother try to save the baby cabbage when you go to cut it? Can you sense any feelings of pain in the cabbage? If you can then you should think about not "killing" the cabbage.

    • A5.5: sir i never kill Goat or Chicken with my hand when i eat it!!!! and i don't pluck radish and carrots from fields. So i can't feel both and when i see situation of both then same feeling exists.......should i Stop eating??
      Take a Seed and take similar seed, keep one seed in Bhanda and boil it. Now put both seeds into earth, which one will grow?

What about bacteria? As you mention, the Guru tells us that we kill billions of them everyday. Should we stop this as well? Did the Guru ask us to stop breathing? No. The Guru only tell us to not kill to eat meat - no mention here of bacteria or of veg.

    • A5.6: Where guru tell that??

A6: Kabeer ji da shabad

ਕਬੀਰ ਭਾਂਗ ਮਾਛ੝ਲੀ ਸ੝ਰਾ ਪਾਨਿ ਜੋ ਜੋ ਪ੝ਰਾਨੀ ਖਾਂਹਿ ॥ ਤੀਰਥ ਬਰਤ ਨੇਮ ਕੀਝ ਤੇ ਸਭੈ ਰਸਾਤਲਿ ਜਾਂਹਿ ॥੨੩੩॥
Kabeer, those mortals who consume marijuana, fish and wine - no matter what pilgrimages, fasts and rituals they follow, they will all go to hell.

Bhai sahib ji: This shabad says: "If you consume marijuana, fish or wine (alcohol); then it doesn't matter what rituals or pilgrimages or fast or anything else that you may do - you will go to hell. It is as simple as that. The words "ਨੇਮ ਕੀਝ" "Nem keeya" (see ਨੇਮ s  means "ਨਿਯਮ, ਧਾਰਮਕ ਰਹਿਤ" or "doing any religious ritual or deed" and covers many things including Nitnem, wearing kakkar, daily ishnaan, doing kirtan, etc. Bhai sahib, this makes perfect sense - this is a tuk in simple punjabi; the English translations are by renowned scholars who have been commended by the panth.

    • A6.1: ok i can reply you on these, Bhang/Sharab....both eats up MIND, GUrus said reject those things jo paramatma ton door kardi hai....which takes you away from god......second thing Fish, fish encourage sexual something like that you know better. kaam vaashna also takes away from god. still BHANG and SHARAB is rejected at various places. i will reply on nem later, i have to clear NEM word of that time and today.

Sikhs do to teeraths; they go to Harmander sahib, Hemkunt sahib, Anandpur sahib, etc. Remember that Gurbani is universal and so it addresses all the people in the world - so all things that one may do are addressed. But what is important is that whatever you do, if you consume those three nasties, then you will go to hell.

    • A6.2: Sir Sikhs doo Teeraths then they are bevakoof as gurbani says there is NO SIGNIFICANCE OF TIRATHS

Bhai sahib ji, Guru has not given the reverse as true. If you eat good things that does not mean you will go to heaven! Guru does not say that.

    • A6.3: Thats what i am saying NO SIGNIFICANCE....Khaan da AATMA naal koi SAMBANDH nahi, Shareer MAAYA hai, Khana MAAYA hai...Maaya ne Maaya vich jana hai Kaaya vich nahi??

Bhai sahib, I have not got these meanings from any Sant or Deera. This is from my own reading of Gurbani and research of books by other educated Sikhs; you can read the meanings of the words in Punjabi at Sri Granth - It tells you what the words mean; the message is clear. Bhai sahib, I am pleased that you too are a vegetarian but I am quoting the exact translation by many scholars - I have checked four copies of the English translation and they all more or less say the same thing; they can't all be wrong!

    • A6.4: I NEED INTERPRETATIONS OF GURMUKHS not SCHOLARS (if you love to read scholars read Bhai Sahib SIngh Scholar on Bhang machuli sura paan what he interpreted)

Bhai sahib, the message of Gurbani is about compassion; so when we stop killing animals, it should be because of compassion not any other reason like the hypocrisy of the Pandits; If you feel compassion for plants then please don't eat them. But for me, plants do not have a nervous system; I cannot see them crying and so I do not think they are suffering when we "kill" them. It is like ones hair; it is alive but when you cut the hair there is no feeling. Similarly, when we cut plants they do not show pain.

    • A6.5: Rabb thode muhre maari janda duniya nu, Tusi ohnu Compassionate kehnde ho, our COMPASSIONATE keeps no SIGNIFICANCE!!!!!GYAN DHYAN nahi jane!!!!! We should have COMPASSIONATE FOR our MAnna and CHITT

Further, Bhai sahib, many veg that we eat are actually the seeds or fruits of the plant; the plant deliberately makes the fruit so that animals may eat them to propagate the plant somewhere else. For example, the plant makes a bright red tomato with good taste so that an animal eats it and in the process the seed is transferred somewhere else so that it can grow! Also other plants that we eat are seeds which are meant to be taken by animals for dispersal - To attract the animals and birds and encourage them to act as seed carriers, plants often surround their seeds with a brightly-coloured and sweet-tasting pulp - Read: http://theseedsite.co.uk/sdanimal.html and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seed_dispersal#Dispersal_by_animals for more details about this.

    • A6.6: A Single Plant have life when you pluck it you kill it!!!! Their SEEDS have life when you boil it you kill it.

Also cereals like wheat and barley are grasses that used to grow naturally and were eaten by animals and helped the dispersal of the crops to newer regions. Due to our dependency on these crops, their survival is assured! So the plants has a natural mechanism for survival through a relationship to animals and mankind.

Bhai sahib, if you do not agree with the article, then you must deal with each of the shabads on that page; please do not bring new shabads to try and prove your view point as this just makes the whole thing get out of focus. Tell us about your opinion on what the Guru is saying in the shabads that appear on the article page; that way we can try and see where the confusion may be from either side.

Kind regards, Hari Singhtalk 06:08, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

    • A6.7: Gurus said there is no significance of Food.

Please use a new section for your reply

Bhai sahib ji,

Many thanks for your detailed reply. To make it easy for others to follow the argument, please use a new section for your reply as otherwise it becomes very difficult to follow the logic; I have added colour and numbering to make it easier. I am also numbering my entries so that you can use the same paragraph numbers:

Point B1

You have repeatedly written (at A1.1, A3.5, A5.2 and A6.7) that "Gurus said there is no significance of Food." - Where is this written? please quote a few tuks?

Please Veer ji, also explain why Bhai Gurdas disagrees with you and say that what you eat and how you get it has significance to the person; Bhai Gurdas ji has said the opposite thing to what you are saying! So I would say that, with utmost respect, Veer ji your statement cannot be right. Bhai Gurdas ji makes it very clear in the line: "ਮਾਸ੝ ਖਾਨਿ ਗਲ ਵਢਿ ਕੈ ਹਾਲ੝ ਤਿਨਾੜਾ ਕਉਣ੝ ਹੋਵਸੀ॥" - "Those who cut our throats and eat our flesh, what will be their plight?" please read the full shabad here. It is clear that how we obtain our food has a spiritual significance on our plight. That is what the bhai sahib's shabad say. Please do not refer me to the rest of the shabad as I have read it already. Always quote the line and explain what it means to you so that we can all follow the logic even if we do not accept it. It is clear from this Vaar that Bhai Gurdas ji is saying via the goat that when we cut the throat of the poor goat, that only eats rough grass, and eat its body parts, this act will have an impact on our plight.

Also veer ji, see the next vaar 37 pauri 21 where Bhai Gurdas ji says "What will be the plight of those who cutting the throat with a knife eat the flesh of animals?" - please refer to the article page for the full shabad.

  • Veer Ji, First of all i am sorry if i said anything sacastic in previous sayings as my friend said. So on topic, Veer Ji you said ""Sab Sikhan ko Hukam hai Guru Maneyo Granth"", so better we take examples from Guru Granth Sahib Ji, Nanak to Patshahi 10 keep significance, Not a Single Shabad of Bhai Gurdas is included in Adi granth and Dasam granth. Rehat should be from Granths wrote by Gurus not an Bhai Gurdas Ji. Not all hymns of Bijak(Bhagat Kabir) are included in Gur Granth Ji, it means those are not required for sikhs. We Should follow PATSHAHI 1 to PATSHAHI 10, Bhagat/bhatt Banis, contained in Gur Granth. Kindly give me lines of Gur Granth Sahib.

Point B2

A2.1: Problem is the Interpretation of Gurbani in english, Does man live in dirt and eat mud?, then tell me do Creatures enshrine in God's love? Dog enshrine in God's love, lion enshrine in god's love? if yes, then What is proved from here that these things keep no significance(Maas, Jog, Ghaas, delicacies)....if no then same thing. If a MASAHARI enshrine lord in mind than he is accepted what if people are GHASAHARI and not enshrine in love with lord? So MASAHARI or GHASAHARI creatures keep no significance!!!food habits keep no significance! God never restrict food, it is us who do that, human can easily live on veg but his body is made such he can consume non veg too, if god want to take us veg food only then he could give COW like structure to us. Khaana da laina dena sareer naal hai AATMA naal nahi

Reply: Yes, Veer ji His all creatures and things meditate on the Lord; I will let Gurbani speak here - "All beings and creatures meditate on Your Name." (SGGS p 652), "All beings and creatures meditate on You, Lord. You hold the earth in Your Hands" (SGGS p 84); "Mortals, forests, blades of grass, animals and birds all meditate on You..... Millions of gods and goddesses of wealth serve Him in so many ways ..... The stars, the moon and the sun meditate on Him; the earth and the sky sing to Him. " (SGGS p 455), "You created all beings and creatures. Each and every heart meditates on You. " (SGGS p 748) and finally "The forests and fields, and all the three worlds meditate on You, O Lord; this is the way they pass their days and nights forever." (SGGS p 1420) Veer ji, you asked the question and here is the answer. Now you decide if there is any significance!

Veer ji, the Guru tells us "The elephant eats a hundred pounds of ghee and molasses, and five hundred pounds of corn. He belches and grunts and scatters dust, and when the breath leaves his body, he regrets it. The blind and arrogant die insane. Submitting to the Lord, one become pleasing to Him. The sparrow eats only half a grain, then it flies through the sky and chirps. The good sparrow is pleasing to her Lord and Master, if she chirps the Name of the Lord." (SGGS p 1286) We need to live in a controlled way keeping a restrain on excesses; that way we are pleasing to our Lord. Please read the whole shabad at this link.

  • Veer Ji, We need to live in a controlled way keeping a restrain on excesses; that way we are pleasing to our Lord, that is the point veer Ji, you gave conclusion. Moreover you also included Mortals, forests, blades of grass, animals and birds all meditate on You...... This included Forests/Grass = Plants, who take God's name, what does it mean? They also have feeling!!! right? They are Jeev sir. we are killing and plucking them. They also take God's name. Rite?

Point B3

B3.1: A3.1: Now tell me, suppose i am NON VEG, you are VEG...non VEG will not have problem with VEg consumers but VEG people have problem with NON VEG...they will say non vegies not to take food and which result to JHAGDA: ਮਾਸ੝ ਮਾਸ੝ ਕਰਿ ਮੂਰਖ੝ ਝਗੜੇ ਗਿਆਨ੝ ਧਿਆਨ੝ ਨਹੀ ਜਾਣੈ ॥ so both parties fight and the aim of GUru is on pundit who preach such things.

Reply: Veer ji, there is no fight; only a desire to understand the word of the Guru and disperse it as such.

B3.2: A3.2: then tell me?? What is sin question of GURBANI!!!!! This is discourse wih pundit who says people not to consume MEat. but that pundits were away from Gyan/Dhyan....

Reply: Veer ji, this is no discourse with pandits - It is a message for us to learn from. If you carefully continue reading the shabad, eventually the Guru says: "ਅੰਧਾ ਸੋਇ ਜਿ ਅੰਧ੝ ਕਮਾਵੈ ਤਿਸ੝ ਰਿਦੈ ਸਿ ਲੋਚਨ ਨਾਹੀ ॥ They alone are blind, who act blindly. They have no eyes in their hearts." (SGGS p 1289) Gurbani clearly is telling us that if you do not "have eyes in your heart" or in other words you cannot see the pain or suffering in others "with your heart" or that you do not have compassion for others, then you are spiritually blind. So, people who do not practise compassion will act sinfully or be "spiritually blind". Kabir ji provides further clarification "ਕਬੀਰ ਜੀਅ ਜ੝ ਮਾਰਹਿ ਜੋਰ੝ ਕਰਿ ਕਹਤੇ ਹਹਿ ਜ੝ ਹਲਾਲ੝ ॥ ਦਫਤਰ੝ ਦਈ ਜਬ ਕਾਢਿ ਹੈ ਹੋਇਗਾ ਕਉਨ੝ ਹਵਾਲ੝ ॥੧੯੯॥ Kabeer, they oppress living beings and kill them, and call it proper. When the Lord calls for their account, what will their condition be? (199)" (SGGS p 1375). Those people who oppress others and kill them will be held accountable!

    • Sir ji This is Discourse with PUNDIT: ਗਿਆਨ੝ ਧਿਆਨ੝ ਕਛ੝ ਸੂਝੈ ਨਾਹੀ ਚਤ੝ਰ੝ ਕਹਾਵੈ ਪਾਂਡੇ॥. Who is Pandey? The Internal eyes are not made to see compassion but to see the god. Gyan da Chanana hunda hai eh andar dia akhan khuldiya hann, Bahr diya akhan duniya nu dekhdiyan ne, andar diyan akhan gyan nu dekhdiya ne.

Meaning of Kabir Ji lines, from same website from where you copied: ਹੇ ਕਬੀਰ! ਜੋ ਲੋਕ ਧੱਕਾ ਕਰ ਕੇ (ਗਾਂ ਆਦਿਕ) ਜੀਵਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਮਾਰਦੇ ਹਨ; ਪਰ ਆਖਦੇ ਇਹ ਹਨ ਕਿ (ਇਹ ਜ਼ਬਹ ਕੀਤਾ ਹੋਇਆ ਮਾਸ) ਖ਼੝ਦਾ ਦੇ ਨਾਮ ਤੇ ਕ੝ਰਬਾਨੀ ਦੇ ਲਾਇਕ ਹੋ ਗਿਆ ਹੈ, ਜਦੋਂ ਸਭ ਜੀਵਾਂ ਨਾਲ ਪਿਆਰ ਕਰਨ ਵਾਲਾ ਖ਼੝ਦਾ (ਇਹਨਾਂ ਲੋਕਾਂ ਪਾਸੋਂ-ਅਮਲਾਂ ਦਾ ਲੇਖਾ ਮੰਗੇਗਾ, ਤਾਂ ਇਹਨਾਂ ਦਾ ਕੀਹ ਹਾਲ ਹੋਵੇਗਾ? (ਭਾਵ, ਕ੝ਰਬਾਨੀ ਦਿੱਤਿਆਂ ਗ੝ਨਾਹ ਬਖ਼ਸ਼ੇ ਨਹੀਂ ਜਾਂਦੇ)।੧੯੯।

B3.5: A3.5: read whole salok please : ਅੰਧਾ ਸੋਇ ਜਿ ਅੰਧ੝ ਕਮਾਵੈ ਤਿਸ੝ ਰਿਦੈ ਸਿ ਲੋਚਨ ਨਾਹੀ ॥((They alone are blind, who act blindly. They have no eyes in their hearts.)), ਮਾਤ ਪਿਤਾ ਕੀ ਰਕਤ੝ ਨਿਪੰਨੇ ਮਛੀ ਮਾਸ੝ ਨ ਖਾਂਹੀ ॥ ((They are produced from the blood of their mothers and fathers, but they do not eat fish or meat. )) What i want to mention that MEAT HAVE NO SIGNIFICANCE IN GURBANI!!!!!!

Reply: (ਜੇ ਕਹੋ ਅੰਨ੝ਹਾ ਕੌਣ ਹੈ ਤਾਂ) ਅੰਨ੝ਹਾ ਉਹ ਹੈ ਜੋ ਅੰਨਿ੝ਹਆਂ ਵਾਲਾ ਕੰਮ ਕਰਦਾ ਹੈ, ਜਿਸ ਦੇ ਦਿਲ ਵਿਚ ਉਹ ਅੱਖਾਂ ਨਹੀਂ ਹਨ (ਭਾਵ, ਜੋ ਸਮਝ ਤੋਂ ਸੱਖਣਾ ਹੈ), (ਨਹੀਂ ਤਾਂ ਸੋਚਣ ਵਾਲੀ ਗੱਲ ਹੈ ਕਿ ਆਪ ਭੀ ਤਾਂ) ਮਾਂ ਤੇ ਪਿਉ ਦੀ ਰੱਤ ਤੋਂ ਹੀ ਹੋਝ ਹਨ ਤੇ ਮੱਛੀ (ਆਦਿਕ) ਦੇ ਮਾਸ ਤੋਂ ਪਰਹੇਜ਼ ਕਰਦੇ ਹਨ (ਭਾਵ, ਮਾਸ ਤੋਂ ਹੀ ਪੈਦਾ ਹੋ ਕੇ ਮਾਸ ਤੋਂ ਪਰਹੇਜ਼ ਕਰਨ ਦਾ ਕੀਹ ਭਾਵ? ਪਹਿਲਾਂ ਭੀ ਤਾਂ ਮਾਂ ਪਿਉ ਦੇ ਮਾਸ ਤੋਂ ਹੀ ਸਰੀਰ ਪਲਿਆ ਹੈ)।

Point B4

A4.1: Now sir Ji, If you will say the granth is not updesh to PUNDITS AND MUSLIMS then edit the granth and remove maximum lines.... (Sun Pandey, Bol Pandey), articles like Guru Granth Sahib's guidance for Muslims....change it to Guru Granth Sahib guidance to Sikhs!!! Guru Granth Sahib have guidance for all, and who follow him is a SIKH. wasn't Sayi miyan meer a Sikh??? Wasn't peer buddhu shah a sikh?? wasn't jaani shah a sikh?? wasn't todar mall a sikh (as he was not Todar Singh)?? they all were sikhs!!!

Reply: Veer ji, Guru's hukam is - this holy Granth is Guru of Sikhs. Everything in it provides us with guidance. There is no instruction left by the Gurus to others - if there is please let me know where it? When did the Gurus say that Muslims or Hindus should accept this as their Guru or as anything else? In the ardas we say - "sab sikhkan ko hukam ha --- Guru maneo Granth" where do we say that Muslims and Hindus also have such instruction?

  • When the banis were recorded it was messages for Pundits, qazis and other bhatke people. We have to understand that first, before any interpretation. Sikh have to extract what is there guru is denying what is there which have no significance which is significane. many muslim improved their way of life and vision when contact with srigranth, many non sikhs are improving, and for me they are too sikhs.

Point B5

A5.3: God is situated in ANDAJ, JERAJ, SETAJ, UTBHUJ....What you kill what you not tell me!!!!

Reply: Yes, Veer ji. God is in everything; but what I am saying is related to compassion and pain. If you think that your breathing causes pain to the bacteria then find another way to breathe otherwise carry on in the normal way.

  • Same thing i want to say, Sir ji. What we feel we react and what we do not feel we never react. yesterday i went to Sabzi Mandi and i saw Carcasses of Radish, Potato, Carrot etc. still i am taking. Jeev vich Atma hundi hai and you said yourself, Forests and plants also recite their name, if they are. Social behavior of plant is their, rose have spines, mimosa pudica is fearful plant it leaves close as we touch.


A5.4: you cannot feel pain of plants sir, i was talking with dad that a radish was growing and before me farmer plucks it, it wants to grow more want to live, it have life with earth and we killed Radish, my dad said @@hor khana chadd daiye@@,,,,,,Sir i can feel sufferings of Plants too.

Reply: No, Veer ji. I cannot feel or see any pain in the plant when I remove the tomato. Veer ji, I am not a farmer but I think if you leave the radish in the ground, it will die in a few weeks anyway once the seeds have sprouted. This is a root and the seeds allow the plant to propagate; we play our part in maintaining the plant species. Does you hair feel pain when you cut it? It is alive but it does not have a nerve in it.

  • No Veer ji hair doesn't pain me. It is feeling rite you said you have feeling for animals and i said i have feelings for plants too. i never say to kill animal. and i am not promoting NONVEGIE food what i am saying is, Food have no relation with our spiriual life.

A5.5: sir i never kill Goat or Chicken with my hand when i eat it!!!! and i don't pluck radish and carrots from fields. So i can't feel both and when i see situation of both then same feeling exists.......should i Stop eating?? Take a Seed and take similar seed, keep one seed in Bhanda and boil it. Now put both seeds into earth, which one will grow?

Reply: Veer ji, If you did eat meat; it does not matter who kills it, you play a part in its killing by consuming it. Plants do not have nerves and as such cannot feel pain as we do or as animals do. You do not need to be a rocket scientist to see and understand that. They do not have a brain; where do they feel pain? in the roots, leaves or stem? Similarly, seeds do not have a brain. Please explain how plants can feel pain and how they suffer when we consume vegetables. The situation between meat and vegetables is completely difference - Look with the eyes in your heart as Gurbani asks?

  • Veer ji,if No brain then eat it, cut it. Eh ki insaaf hai JEEV naal who even recite god's name? As you mentioned line above, tell me How could plant Recite God's name? Moreover many scientists claims plants also feel pain: Link 1, Link 2, Link 3, Link 4

Point B6

A6.4: I NEED INTERPRETATIONS OF GURMUKHS not SCHOLARS (if you love to read scholars read Bhai Sahib SIngh Scholar on Bhang machuli sura paan what he interpreted)

Reply: Veer ji, scholars can also be very good Gurmukhs. Please show mean a different meaning in these tuks. To me they appear very clear. Tell me what Bhai Sahib Singh says? How can he dodge Gurbani! The message is very precise and direct.

  • Veer Ji Gurmukhs always hae same interpretations. if scholars are gurmukh then we would not be fighting.

A6.6: A Single Plant have life when you pluck it you kill it!!!! Their SEEDS have life when you boil it you kill it.

Reply: Veer ji, we are talking about pain and suffering NOT about life; we are talking about compassion - eyes in you heart! How do you feel when you kill another animal? Can you see any suffering and pain? If not then carry on. If you do then let Gurbani guide you. "ਨਿਰਦਇਆ ਨਹੀ ਜੋਤਿ ਉਜਾਲਾ ॥ You have no compassion; the Lord's Light does not shine in you. ਬੂਡਤ ਬੂਡੇ ਸਰਬ ਜੰਜਾਲਾ ॥੪॥ You are drowned, drowned in worldly entanglements.(4)" (SGGS p 903) Kind regards, Hari Singhtalk 03:56, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

  • Veer Ji, This is Last reply of Mine on topic. I Haven't found anything AGAINST or FAVOUR of NON VEGETARIANISM in GURU Granth ji. The Vichar ends up to Kind and Compassion, and i have same compassion for seed too and egg too. i do not take egg as it's my personal choice...Control, how much can i control my tounge in both cases veg and non veg, and i feel i take veg food and can be a good sikh but when i was taking non veg food then i was not bad sikh. Food is Maya to keep our body stable we take food(of any kind), Naam is not Maya, Naam is our eternal food. Naam contains DEEN DAYAL for god(Compassion and kind) and Naam includes KAAL and MAHAKAAL for god(Unkind acc. to us). What happened in Haiti was naturan disaster and UNKIND act of God. What is Kind and What is Unkind? The most Unkind act is that a Person misguides someone from spiritual way of life. The person who takes away someone from that Pari Puran Parmatma. These Rituals veg non veg etc etc will remain on earth after my death too as this body will go in fire after my death but this Atma (MAYA to NIRLEP) will not. Eat Less!!!! Sleep LESS!!!! Take Balanced diet!!!! May God bless all.</font(Lucky 11:51, 23 February 2010 (UTC))

Reply to Some Quotes (paapi 10:13, 23 February 2010 (UTC))

Hari Singhtalk: Veer ji, Guru's hukam is - this holy Granth is Guru of Sikhs. Everything in it provides us with guidance. There is no instruction left by the Gurus to others - if there is please let me know where it? When did the Gurus say that Muslims or Hindus should accept this as their Guru or as anything else? In the ardas we say - "sab sikhkan ko hukam ha --- Guru maneo Granth" where do we say that Muslims and Hindus also have such instruction?

(paapi): Objection, Guru Granth Sahib is for all who want to learn wether Hindu or Muslim or Sikh or Christian. sab sikhkan ko hukam ha --- Guru maneo Granth((These ae wordings of some Gursikh not of any Guru)). Sikhs should not claim it as their own granth, even Dasam Granth and Sarabloh Granth never claims that these are for Sikhs only. Sikhs have Rehat but no Maryada. Sikhs have Sidha but no Sidhant. Sikhs are god loving people wether belong to any community. A True Muslim is Sikh, What Muslim is explaned in Guru Granth Sahib. One have to be True, believe in Truth then only he is SIkh. Sikh is called Sach Dharam (Boliyey Sach Dharam Jhoot na Bolie).Jhoot(lie) is Jagat Tamasha. No doubt some Sikh Samudaye claim their own right on Guru Granth Sahib because written by their own guru but this Updesh is for all.(Dhur ki bani aayi) how can you say Dhur ki bani is just for sikhs? is god only for sikhs? No, one who follow god is Sikh (paapi 10:05, 23 February 2010 (UTC))


Hari Singhtalk: Veer ji, we are talking about pain and suffering NOT about life; we are talking about compassion - eyes in you heart! How do you feel when you kill another animal? Can you see any suffering and pain? If not then carry on. If you do then let Gurbani guide you. "ਨਿਰਦਇਆ ਨਹੀ ਜੋਤਿ ਉਜਾਲਾ ॥ You have no compassion; the Lord's Light does not shine in you. ਬੂਡਤ ਬੂਡੇ ਸਰਬ ਜੰਜਾਲਾ ॥੪॥ You are drowned, drowned in worldly entanglements.(4)" (SGGS p 903) Kind regards, Hari Singhtalk 03:56, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

(paapi)We say in Punjabi Arth da Anarth. veer ji wrong tuks are picked:
ਬਿੰਦ੝ ਨ ਰਾਖਹਿ ਜਤੀ ਕਹਾਵਹਿ ॥ ਮਾਈ ਮਾਗਤ ਤ੝ਰੈ ਲੋਭਾਵਹਿ ॥ ਨਿਰਦਇਆ ਨਹੀ ਜੋਤਿ ਉਜਾਲਾ ॥ ਬੂਡਤ ਬੂਡੇ ਸਰਬ ਜੰਜਾਲਾ ॥੪॥

Binḝ na rĝkẖahi jaṯī kahĝvėh. Mĝ▫ī mĝgaṯ ṯarai lobẖĝvėh. Nirḝa▫i▫ĝ nahī joṯ ujĝlĝ. Būdaṯ būde sarab janjĝlĝ. ||4||

You do not control your seed and semen, and yet you claim to practice abstinence. You beg from Maya, lured by the three qualities. You have no compassion; the Lord's Light does not shine in you. You are drowned, drowned in worldly entanglements. ||4||

ਬਿੰਦ੝ = ਵੀਰਜ। ਮਾਈ = ਮਾਇਆ। ਤ੝ਰੈ = (ਮਾਇਆ ਦੇ) ਤਿੰਨ ਗ੝ਣਾਂ ਵਿਚ। ਲੋਭਾਵਹਿ = ਤੂੰ ਗ੝ਰਸਿਆ ਹੋਇਆ ਹੈਂ। ਉਜਾਲਾ = ਚਾਨਣ, ਪ੝ਰਕਾਸ਼। ਬੂਡਤ ਬੂਡੇ = ਡ੝ੱਬਦਾ ਡ੝ੱਬ ਗਿਆ।੪।

ਹੇ ਜੋਗੀ! ਤੂੰ ਕਾਮ-ਵਾਸਨਾ ਤੋਂ ਆਪਣੇ ਆਪ ਨੂੰ ਨਹੀਂ ਬਚਾਂਦਾ, ਪਰ (ਫਿਰ ਭੀ ਲੋਕਾਂ ਪਾਸੋਂ) ਜਤੀ ਅਖਵਾ ਰਿਹਾ ਹੈਂ। ਮਾਇਆ ਮੰਗਦਾ ਮੰਗਦਾ ਤੂੰ ਤ੝ਰੈਗ੝ਣੀ ਮਾਇਆ ਵਿਚ ਫਸ ਰਿਹਾ ਹੈਂ। ਜਿਸ ਮਨ੝ੱਖ ਦੇ ਅੰਦਰ ਕਠੋਰਤਾ ਹੋਵੇ ਉਸ ਦੇ ਹਿਰਦੇ ਵਿਚ ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਦੀ ਜੋਤਿ ਦਾ ਚਾਨਣ ਨਹੀਂ ਹੋ ਸਕਦਾ, (ਸਹਿਜੇ ਸਹਿਜੇ) ਡ੝ੱਬਦਾ ਡ੝ੱਬਦਾ ਉਹ (ਮਾਇਆ ਦੇ) ਸਾਰੇ ਜੰਜਾਲਾਂ ਵਿਚ ਡ੝ੱਬ ਜਾਂਦਾ ਹੈ।੪। (paapi 10:05, 23 February 2010 (UTC))


@Harpreet: Pehlan Tikaw, Fir Vichar, Fir Visthar, Fir Sehansheelta, Fir Shukrana. Rasta Daso, but Lehja Sahi hovey. Jehdi Vichar nal tuhanu Shanti nahi mildi, oh theek nahi. Do not taunt anyone. Thand Rakho Socho fir Gall karo. Remember jehda banda opposite bol reha oh v Veecharan wale hann. Je tuhade Vichar sahi honge, ohna nu accept karna pavega. But lehje da khyal rakho, please