Explanation about Sikhi and Supernatural Powers
You say in your comments that you "Removed [the] concept of Supernatural Powers of Mian Meer, and Guru Arjan Dev ji..." as "...It contradicts Gurmat".
Khalsa ji, supernatural powers are a reality and the vision that is described by Mian Mir is a possibility as can be seen from Gurbani at the link given below. Bani tells us that supernatural powers do exist and that they are a integral part of nature; Riddha and Siddha are a function of nature just like atomic power or gravity, powers of thought, etc.
However to strive or crave for these powers is "anti-Gurmat"; to use these powers for personal advantage is anti-gurmat. Please follow the link to read Gurbani lines containing the word "supernatural".
You will recall that Guru Nanak stopped a huge bolder at Panja Sahib in an act to save himself and the sangat from certain death. This is a supernatural act done by a Guru! Not for a personal gain and in self defence but nevertheless a supernatural act in any event.
I hope you will agree with my analysis of this issue and the related Gurbani; if not, please do revert back to me on my user talk page. Kind regards and many thanks again, Hari Singhtalk 22:51, 17 May 2010 (UTC)
labeling 'other' people
Rupinder.singh ji, I chanced to see the words Chinese whisper and wondered whether it was a slam on the chinese. Why not a persian whisper or and american whisper, ect. The name comes from a game - I have to wonder about the game designer's intentions in giving the gossip award to the chinese.
We could have the old saws of the Scotch miser game or the Dutch Stinginess game or the Welsh betting game or the Indian Giver game (maybe you never heard of the phrase (probably started by euro americans in reference to how much more trustworthy they were than american indians).
Seeing your name in red reminds me I have forgotten to say welcome to this site. I hope you will take a few moments to tell us a bit about yourself; country, interest, age, education, work, whatever. Any morsels that turns your name to blue - by adding info on your user page site. That site is usually never alter by anyone but you. We add comments and questions on our respective discussion (talk) pages.
I used to teach at a university here in the 'states (US) and on the first day of many of my design classes I would give out a letter size paper with an outline drawing of the USA. The first student was asked to redraw this and pass it on - each student doing the same. The final drawing proved the point of being accurate and careful in using language, ect. I believe this is what Martin Heidegger called drift. I guess this was long before someone decided to label the Chinese, with this tendency we all have.
Again welcome and please continue to contribute.
Raab Rakha, Allenwalla 16:15, 4 June 2010 (UTC)
i.e. - …The name "Chinese whispers" reflects the former stereotype in Europe of the Chinese language as being incomprehensible. It is little-used in the United States and may be considered offensive.…
Your comments also led me to look up Chinese whispers (apparently an English Empire slam on the difficulties of understanding a language based, in part, on tones (good things the bush men of Africa never developed an empire for the British to conquer), which led to looking up Epistemology (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epistemology) and on to the so called Certainty series: (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Certainty)
Or as Jeremy_Hilary_Boob (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeremy_Hilary_Boob) said:
With so much to read, keeping to one's beliefs (such as its ok to kill those who don't believe in my religion in the exact same way I do - is ok) makes it easy to see why the taleban simply blow up schools.
I was trying to find a story I had read recently of a man who was astonished to hear his young nephew saying it was ok to have killed the Ahmadis in Lahore (as taught by his Maulvi), but i couldn't find the story again.
but the two stories found in the attempt should be interesting to any Sikh - given one of Guru Gobind Singh's raisons d'etre for creating the Khalsa and his father's reason for giving up his life.
Finally I found the story/letter
Regards Allenwalla 18:35, 4 June 2010 (UTC)
Supernatural powers and ghosts
Bhai Sahib ji,
Many thanks for such a lot of work in preparing your very considered reply; I have transferred the whole discussion/our conversation on this topic to Talk:Supernatural_Powers as it is very relevant to the article there.
I agree that Sikhi is a very logical faith and that we do not follow meaningless rituals or logic. However, Bhai sahib that does not mean that we can restrict the issues to just what we understand or can see or visualise ourselves. One has to accept that there may be ideas and realities that some of us cannot understand or "see" but which may exist.
Just as an example, I could say to you that "a footballer is capable of scoring a goal by bending the ball from about 25 yards past 10 players" - You may say that you do not believe this statement. I could then show you a video of someone achieving this goal. Our perception of the world is linked to our experiences; there may be more to learn about the world then we know today. If I said in 1800 that man will be able to produce an atom bomb which could destroy a whole town - no one who have believed me. So some of the things that we may say today may not sound believable but they may be true.
Bhai sahib, as Sikhs we follow the Guru Granth Sahib; this tells us that supernatural powers do exist. I agree with you that the Guru does not give these any spiritual significance but they nevertheless do exist. This is clearly demonstrated in the meeting of Guru Nanak with the Siddhas when they tried their supernatural power on the Guru!
So as Sikhs we do not give these powers any significance but we must acknowledge that they do exist; to deny them would be anti-Gurmat. I will compare them to another concept which is very similar - ghosts.
Gurbani says that ghosts are a reality - However I have not seen a ghost and I am incapable of showing one to you. So how do we deal with this issue. Do we deny ghosts just because we cannot demonstrate their existence in a scientific way or do we believe/deny Gurbani or what?
Link to my response--Rupinder Singh
Dear Bhai Sahb Allenwala ji and Hari Singh ji,
There seems to be some confusion regarding where to put this discussion. I can already see two spots now. As I replied to your last disccusion at page Talk:Supernatural_Powers, but it did not get updated here. So right approach would be if we keep all discussion in one place for our convenience and transparency. please move whole discussion to one place and then provide a link on this page where we actually started the discussion.
please see my response to your latest entry at following link.
Bhai Sahb Allenwala ji, your findings on concept of Certainty, Beliefs and Truth were really interesting. Thanks for sharing it. It will be much appreciated if you can un-delete those of your responses so that other Sangat following this discussion could also benefit from your point of view. It also maintains the transparency of discussion.
On reaching others on this site
Bhai Sahib, I usually log on to this site once in the morning and again after sun down. Often I click on the last thing done on the recent pages section.
There (your talk page) I saw that you had written me. Usually I would never known that you had written me and I don't know if Hari ji has chanced to see the note either.
I had seen that you had an interesting conversation going on with Hari ji, but it is one that I feel uneasy and unprepared to participate in - the term Chinese Whisper was offensive to my ear - i am sure the Chinese see English sounds as so much babble, as well.
I don't know what you refer to (un-delete those of my responses)' as I only moved my comment from your user page, where I had posted it in error, and put it in your talk page - i. e. - labeling 'other people'.
Any thing posted stays in history, unless it is removed by the administration (offensive or vulgar items).
When i sign this comment you will get my sikhiwiki user name, i.e. Allenwalla. If you click on the blue Allenwalla it will take you to my page - then click on the tab marked discussion and you get a box to write in plus a Subject/headline box to fill in.
Sign any notes by holding down the control key (apple) while you type four tildes - that will sent a 'got mail' notice to me or whoever you are writing to. Otherwise no one knows you are writing, except by an accident or perhaps what some might define as a supernatural power; your intention on communicating or God's intention in having someone get the comunication.
I find this happens often with my wife, after 20 years one of us often speak out what the other is about to ask. If I look at someone they often turn to look at me just as I glanced their way. Accident, random chance or some sense we have yet to define.
Thanks again for leading me to the word Epistemology, ect - hopefully one day I'll get around to reading them.
Rabb Rakha, Allenwalla 01:54, 7 June 2010 (UTC)
Link to my response--Rupinder Singh
Dear Allenwala ji
thanks for your suggestions on replying.
please see my response at following link. Supernatural Powers, Ghosts, Illusion and Tricks
Looking forward to hear from your side
Thanks --Rupinder.singh 23:08, 7 June 2010 (UTC)