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Reply by HS to Incredible on 11 August 2006
From what I have read of your replies when you say "…. translations are imperfect", it is clear that you do not believe that English can be used to relate the message of the Guru. It is clear that if you cannot appreciate the marvellous work done by great men like Dr Sant Singh, Bhai Manmohan Singh and Dr Gopal Singh, then I do not think that you will be impressed by my efforts.
In all your replies, you have failed to provide literary proof. In which case, I have to assume that this is your own research material without any precedence or history. You do not feel that you need to provide any proof; you have made no references for each one of your replies; no links to credible site have been provided; no backup is given; no page numbers for the references to books – All I can say is that you will never be able to sustain this type of argument in a proper debate without proof and backup with reference to literary works of substance.
Point Number 1 - Meaning of Bismil NOT Bismillah!!
Bismil: If you cannot understand the translation clearly, I am afraid I cannot help you any further. – As they say "'you take the horse to water, but you cannot make it drink"
The work of Dr Surinder Singh Kohli, Professor and Head of Punjabi at Panjabi University, Chandigarh say that this is slayed or slaughtered May be you are more academically qualified than him, in which case, please do not expect me to change your views!!
Point Number 2 – There is NO Sacrifice?
You say: <<The shabad makes reference to both Halal and Bismillah.>> If you read the Shabad correctly, it is Bismil and not Bismillah The word Halal refers to (1) Permissible, legitimate, lawful; sanctioned or permitted by religious law or morality. (2) A method of slaughtering animals by Muslims or Jewish rite for consumption of meat. (as opposed to "Haraam")
Again, if you cannot understand the translation clearly, I cannot help you any further. – see final part of answer to point 1.
Point Number 3 – NO Proof or Reference Provided
I asked you to cite proof or reference for Bismil which actually says precisely sacrificial slaughter and you gave me a copy from the link which I gave previously which actually says: Sacrificed, slaughtered; meek, forbearing – Where does it say exactly sacrificial slaughter – Please be exact and precise. So I will have to assume that this is another invention or "original research" by you.
Point Number 3A – Translation not Perfect I asked:
- 1. Please do cite these translations (by prominent authors, if possible) because that is exactly what we are trying to determine – The exact translation of the Shabad!!
And your reply was:
- That is the point. English translations are imperfect. Gurbani is not.
Well we are communicating in English. Do you feel you cannot express yourself in this language? What is the hindrance? Does English have such severe limitations?
Sure, translation is difficult – but why do you think all 3 scholars have more or less agreed on the translation of this Shabad while you are the only person who appears to disagree? Has anyone else disagreed with this translation? You say it is incorrect – Does anyone else agree with you. Please give us references and links, etc.
So obviously you will disagree with the following who praised the works of Dr Gopal Singh:
* "It is an impressive work which will be found extremely valuable to all students of Sikhism" by Dr. S. Radhakrishnan, President Of India You don't agree as you can probably do a better job!! Yes?
* In looking through this monumental work, I have admired the labour and scholarship of the translator and I must congratulate him on this achievement. He has performed a worthy and necessary task. ……It is a great book and all who read it will profit by it. – by Prime Minister Jawaharlal Nehru. Same here, you being a better scholar will find faults with every Shabad!!
You said <<<<They have tried there best to translate something as complex as Gurbani. It is up to the student and individuals to read the Gurmuki text and derive deeper meanings. English word do not reflect the deeper meaning.>>> Add why not? Should we be speaking Punjabi as English cannot communicate the real deeper message of Gurbani?
You also said: "May I recommed a translation available from Singh Brother by (DS) Chahal. It flows better. The translations you have cited are awkward, and tend not to flow in terms of the English language. This is a shame (especially from authors like Dr Gobal Singh, who has translated Shakespeare into Gurmukhi)." Please you can put the other translation as I suggested so we can all see the "real deep" meaning of this Shabad on SGGS page 1350.
As you respect Mr PS Chahil more than the other scholars, I have quoted the translation of this Shabad by him below. Perhaps you can tell us how this supports your views.
|Do not call the Vedas and Muslim books wrong. One who does not contemplate on these is false. When you say that God abides in all the beings, then why kill a hen?
O'Mullah, say, is this the principle of God's justice? Yet your mind's doubt does not go. Pause
You seize and bring a living being and kill its body. You have merely kill the clay and not the soul. Its imperishable soul is attached to another body. Say then what have you slaughtered?
What is the use of purification of your hands, feet and mouth and washing of your face and what use your head's prostrations in the mosque? What avails you to say the prayers and go to pilgrimage to Mecca, when there is malice and hypocrisy in your mind?
You are impure and do not understand the pure Lord. His mysteries you do not know. Kabir says your have missed paradise and on hell is your mind set.
|SGGS page 1350|
Point Number 4 – WHAT'S the Difference?
So we change one word in the Shabad – '*5. You seize a living creature, and then bring it home and sacrifice its body; you have only destroyed the clay.
I asked: "What difference does it make to the overall message of the Shabad?" And you said: "Totaly, changes the meaning and how this fits into the Sikh view of the world and the futility of sacrifice.Note also that the meaning is for you to figure that out. I would also suggest read the couplets leading up to this Shabad. They "set the scene"."
Well, we need to know what it means to you. I have explained my version on SGGS page 1350 – let's see what you can tell us. You understand the Gurmukhi – just translate it for us in English in your own words!!
Point Number 5 – OTHER use of Bismil
So the Shabad on Page 1165 translates to: * "Bring this dead cow back to life. Otherwise, I shall cut off your head here and now". Naam Dayv answered, "O king, how can this happen? No one can bring the dead back to life.
This should in your opinion read: * * "Bring this cow sacrificed in the name of Allah back to life. Otherwise, I shall cut off your head here and now". Naam Dayv answered, "O king, how can this happen? The animal sacrificed in the name of Allah, cannot be brought back to life".
And you say that: "…. for me has a much deeper, profound, and hard hitting meaning." Could you please tell us what this deeper, profound, and hard hitting meaning is? May be we can all gain from it.
- 1. All 3 English translations support the Vegetarianism article,
however the translations are imperfect and Gurmukhi is not. Gurmukhi itself does not support the Vegetarianism argument.
See my reply to Point 3A
- 2. The Gurmukh Dictionary supports the translation,
however, the Persian translation does not. The Gurmukhi dictionary needs to be revised.
Perhap you would like to undertake the work!! See my answer to Point 1
- 3. The overall message of the Shabad does not change despite your view -
This is not my view, but the view of Gurbani. You are ineffect pushing your view. I am exploring deeper meanings rather than an at face translation (which is poor).
Your colleague's view, which you have supported is that in this Shabad, Guru ji is talking about the wrongs of Sacrifice; Rituals; Purifications; Prayer and Pilgrimage to the Mullah.
When we read Gurbani, we gather an understanding from it depending on our spiritual position. We can then express this position in our own words to explain the meaning gather to a third person. This is what the translations are all about and the various other books and website on the SGGS – various "darpans" and explanation of Gurbani have been offered. What do you understand from this Shabad? Or are you going to state your understanding of the Shabad?
- 4. The Vegetarianism article has support of many other Shabads at SGGS on Meat. -
There are many Meat eating articles that are written where Gurbani supports them. Both arguments are a folly. Gurbani does not support meat eating or vegetarianism.
Please list the Page number and the first line of these Shabads that you say promotes meat-eating for the Sikh – I can assure you that you will never find such a Shabad – But I urge you anyway!!! – Then we can see what you mean or whether you are wrong in taking this position?
- 5. No credible opposition either in the form of clear Gurbani or Historical record -
I would disagree, that firm evidence has been appointed, but there seems to be an entrenched position from which you will not shift, therefore any evidence would not seem credible. has many historical records and views of prominent authors and writers.
Well, Where is it? I need Gurbani – Which you have produced none in your post or History, which you have mentioned at all. I am not interested in authors whose name we have never heard. Only Gurbani and historical recorded events with written proof. Again, I am sure you will not have any!!
- 6. Support from Prominent Historic Scholars like Bhai Gurdas ji -
Bhai Gurdas also talks about killing a deer to get Kasturi (Musk)
Please quote the Vaar with the actual Verses
- 7. Support from many Prominent Sikh leaders with a huge following like Bhai Randhir Singh, Yogi Harbhajan Singh, Sant Isher Singh & all other Sants of the Sikhs with millions of followers.-
a moot point and irrelevant to the debate since these people follow the version of Sikhism they see fit to follow. This is however, not a competition of which Sant/Bhagat is greater.
Does it not matter to your that many prominent Sikhs are opposed to your view of this Sikhi Principle?
- 8. Verbal Support from leader of SGPC/Akal Takhat - Wrong
'Philosophy of Sikhism by Gyani Sher Singh (Ph.D), Shiromani Gurdwara Parbandhak Committee.' Amritsar As a true Vaisnavite Kabir remained a strict vegetarian. Kabir far from defying Brahmanical tradition as to the eating of meat, would not permit so much, as the plucking of a flower (G.G.S. pg 479), whereas Nanak deemed all such scruples to be superstitions, Kabir held the doctrine of Ahinsa or the non-destruction of life, which extended even to that of flowers. The Sikh Gurus, on the contrary, allowed and even encouraged, the use of animal flesh as food. Nanak has exposed this Ahinsa superstition in Asa Ki War (G.G.S. pg 472) and Malar Ke War (G.G.S. pg. 1288). .
All the Shabads in the Guru Granth Sahib have to be equally respected no matter whether written by our Living Gurus or by the Sikh Bhagats.
www.sikhitothemax.com Cardinal Sins by Bhai Desa Singh Please read this Hukamname by Bhai Desa Singh and also refer to the following Vaar of Bhai Gurdas ji:
| ਪਉੜੀ 17 (ਬਕਰੀ) |
ਸੀਹ ਪਜੂਤੀ ਬਕਰੀ ਮਰਦੀ ਹੋਈ ਹੜ ਹੜ ਹਸੀ॥ ਸੀਹ ਪਛੈ ਵਿਸਮਾਦ ਹੋਇ ਇਤ ਅਉਸਰਿ ਕਿਤ ਰਹਸਿ ਰਹਸੀ॥
seeh pajoothee bakaree maradhee hoee harr harr hasee.
seehu pushhai visamaadh hoe eith aousar kith rehas rehasee.
Lion catches a goat; As the goat is dying, it begins to laugh.
In awe the lion asks, why are you laughing?
|Vaar 25 Pauri 17|
| ਪਉੜੀ 21 ( ਨਿਗਰਾ ਮਨਮਖ ਵਸ ਵਿਚ ਨਹੀ ਆ ਸਕਦਾ ) |
ਕਹੈ ਕਸਾਈ ਬਕਰੀ ਲਾਇ ਲੂਣ ਸੀਖ ਮਾਸ ਪਰੋਆ॥
ਹਸਿ ਹਸਿ ਬੋਲੇ ਕਹੀਂਦੀ ਖਾਧੇ ਅਕਿ ਹਾਲ ਇਹ ਹੋਆ॥
kuhai kasaaee bakaree laae loon seekh maas paroaa.
has has bolae kuhee(n)adhee khaadhhae ak haal eihu hoaa.
Pauri 21 (Man having no Guru is uncontrollable)
The butcher slaughters the goat; salts the meat and strings it on a skewer.
(note: Amphisbaena is a mythical serpent having a head at each end of its body.)
|Vaar 37 Pauri 21|
Many thanks for your continued time and dedication to the cause.
--Hari Singh 00:01, 11 August 2006 (CDT)
Nothing Further To Add - Bowing Out
I am bowiing out. The arguments are going nowhere and I do not have the time or inclination to pursue such a trivial topic. I have asked some of the authors of the papers to contact Hari Singh, but none of them wish to. As the Guru's put it so well "The fools argue about flesh and meat", and I can rapidly see myself falling into the pit of foolishness along with others. Meat eating and Vegetarianism is a non issue for Sikhs:
I leave this "debate" with the following thought:
Page 1289 Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji
mehlaa 1. First Mehl:
maas maas kar moorakh jhagrhay gi-aan Dhi-aan nahee jaanai. The fools argue about flesh and meat, but they know nothing about meditation and spiritual wisdom.
ka-un maas ka-un saag kahaavai kis meh paap samaanay. What is called meat, and what is called green vegetables? What leads to sin?
gaiNdaa maar hom jag kee-ay dayviti-aa kee baanay. It was the habit of the gods to kill the rhinoceros, and make a feast of the burnt offering.
maas chhod bais nak pakrheh raatee maanas khaanay. Those who renounce meat, and hold their noses when sitting near it, devour men at night.
farh kar lokaaN no dikhlaavahi gi-aan Dhi-aan nahee soojhai. They practice hypocrisy, and make a show before other people, but they do not understand anything about meditation or spiritual wisdom.
naanak anDhay si-o ki-aa kahee-ai kahai na kahi-aa boojhai. O Nanak, what can be said to the blind people? They cannot answer, or even understand what is said.
anDhaa so-ay je anDh kamaavai tis ridai se lochan naahee. They alone are blind, who act blindly. They have no eyes in their hearts.
maat pitaa kee rakat nipannay machhee maas na khaaNhee. They are produced from the blood of their mothers and fathers, but they do not eat fish or meat.
Thanks, goodbye and goodluck in whatever cause it is you are trying to pursue.